Why did the early church believe that the time of the return was soon?

[parousia70]

The book of Revelation does pose a problem for the preterist though, does it not?

The Opposite is True
It poses exponential problems for the futurist.

The Futurist has to throw out the letters to the 7 Churches, or at the very least, claim they were not actually letters TO and FOR those 7, 1st Century Churches whom they are addressed, and were first delivered to.

 

[Achilles6129]

The Opposite is True
It poses exponential problems for the futurist.

The Futurist has to throw out the letters to the 7 Churches, or at the very least, claim they were not actually letters TO and FOR those 7, 1st Century Churches whom they are addressed, and were first delivered to.

The book of Revelation remains unfulfilled, even for the preterist. The letters to the 7 churches may well be referring to the church universal, but I'm not sure I see a problem with having them refer to the 7 historical churches as well.

 

[Hank77]

Daniel was still sealed in the 1st century, it was not for them to know.

I don't agree. If it was sealed Jesus appears to have unsealed it.
Mar 13:14 `And when ye may see the abomination of the desolation, that was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (whoever is reading let him understand), then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains;

This passage is associated with parable of the fig tree - which is that when Jerusalem is back in the hands of the Jews 1967, that generation will not pass away, without Jesus's return to planet earth.

When did the goal post get moved, it used to be 1948?
Luke said....
Luk 21:29 And he spake a simile to them: `See the fig-tree, and all the trees,
Luk 21:30 when they may now cast forth, having seen, of yourselves ye know that now is the summer nigh;

I shall do you one better. Where's the verse that says there's a gap between the weeks?

I too am waiting for the answer.

 

[tickingclocker]

So You are saying the Holy Spirit hasn't revealed the meaning of Matt 24:33 to you, since you previously admitted to not knowing what it means?

Perhaps heeding your own advice in in order?

No offense intended, but I really don't have a clue what you are going on about.

 

[tickingclocker]

Perhaps if you could be less cryptic in your responses, our readers and I would have better chance at grasping your central point?



Yes, and I maintain that in Matt 24:33, Jesus affirms He meant it to be understood in the HUMAN understanding of the term.


As I see it, you believe the Biblical terms "near, at hand , shortly, about to take place, quickly, in a very little while, etc" really have no discernible meaning whatsoever to the honest Bible expositor.

I couldn't disagree more.

No, Jesus meant it as HE meant it, not meant it as you choose to understand it. In the human understanding it doesn't really make any sense, because He is NOT HERE YET in our concept of "soon". Is He? (Or does 2,000+ years mean "soon" to you?!) So He obviously meant something greater, something we cannot grasp quite yet. But I have complete faith that someday we certainly will!

No, I mean that God's "near, at hand , shortly, about to take place, quickly, in a very little while, etc" mean what HE meant by them. Accept that and move on. I have.

 

[Douggg]

When did the goal post get moved, it used to be 1948?
Luke said....
Luk 21:29 And he spake a simile to them: `See the fig-tree, and all the trees,
Luk 21:30 when they may now cast forth, having seen, of yourselves ye know that now is the summer nigh;

Hi Hank, here is an excerpt from a post I made in 2005. I was thinking that 1948 was the base date at the time, but also considered that the base date could be when the Jews captured Jerusalem in 1967.

The 1948 base date (of Israel being the fig tree) did not work out, because the 7 years would have to had begun in 2011 with Jesus returning no later than 2018. 1948+70 years for a generation = 2018 minus the 7 years = 2011. Didn't happen.

Here's the 2005 excerpt, of a post I made back then....

"So if we take 1948 when Israel became a nation again and add 70 years, we come up with 2018. That's how I arrived at that year of 2018. As a no later than year. I hope you understand that I am not saying we know the exact year at this point in time when Jesus returns.

There is one other possibility to consider, IMHO, and that is
the 70 years added to 1967, the year the Jews recaptured Jerusalem. If that turns out to be the base date, then the no later than date would be 2037."

Hank, where I made my mistake was thinking that Israel was the fig tree. A lot of notable commentators back then were making the claim. After the fail to happen in 2011, I looked at the Jerusalem being the fig tree - which it does make sense because as Jesus and the disciples were entering Jerusalem that last passover week, Jesus cursed the fig for not having fruit - which later in Matthew 21:43, Jesus said the Kingdom of God was taken from that generation and given to a nation will bring forth fruit. Well, Israel certainly is not Christian yet, but the season is coming when Israel will embrace Jesus in the middle part of the 7 years when their thought to be messiah, the Antichrist, betrays them.

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

So what we have is 1967 + 70 years for a generation = 2037 minus the 7 years = 2030 as a no later start time for the last 7 years. So sometime between now and 2030.


.

 

[Hank77]

Hi Hank, here is an excerpt from a post I made in 2005. I was thinking that 1948 was the base date at the time, but also considered that the base date could be when the Jews captured Jerusalem in 1967.

OK. Actually I can see why you would consider this. The nation of Israel, imho, is not Israel without Jerusalem.

70 years for a generation

Well, 70 yrs. falls right in the middle of what we can find for generations in the Bible. Genesis is around 100 yrs. and Job 35-40 yrs.

Jerusalem being the fig tree

This is where I see that Jesus says they will know when they see the signs, just as when the trees (fig and other trees) are budding they know that summer is near.

Well, Israel certainly is not Christian yet, but the season is coming when Israel will embrace Jesus in the middle part of the 7 years when their thought to be messiah, the Antichrist, betrays them.

I agree that the Jews will come to believe that Jesus was/is the promised Messiah. However, I don't agree with the how they will get there. I feel like the eschatology that promotes the rebuilding of the temple, etc., encourages not just Jews but Christians to return to the temple sacrifices rather than the blood of Christ. I see that God destroyed the old temple for a reason and that was to stop that very thing. The old covenant is over and some are wanting to bring it back.

I am not criticizing you personally, I used to be thoroughly in your camp. I read scripture with a preconceived view that I had been taught and had not seriously considered in other views of what the scriptures were saying.

Thank you for addressing my questions and in such a gracious manner, the fruit of the Spirit is apparent in you.
God Bless

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

The breaching between the 69th and 70th weeks decreed for Israel is both a biblical and historical fact .... this is evident for those who study the prophetic scriptures diligently

Those who do not see this must struggle with the future and unfulfilled events that are scheduled for the 70th week and beyond .... the things revealed for this future time frame when rendered literally have no historical matching

There are no prophetic events foretold that can be accurately applied to the time lapse of the breaching .... the events that have and will take place during this period are not a part of the scope of the prophets visions

One has to agree that prophecy dealing with the first 69 weeks of 483 prophetical years has been literally fulfilled with 100% accuracy if they honestly study the literal events of the period and compare them with the historical record

Any attempt to discount the balance of the period of the future 7 prophetical years must include converting from the literal to the metaphorical/allegorical method of interpretation, or the preteristic method of rendering the events of the period into the past

Both of these methodologies are off course and those who follow them must struggle with fitment .... one switches from the literal to the metaphorical, and the other force fits the future fulfillment into the past

The Lord has purposely set the time frame of the 70 weeks of years for a reason making Israel an ensign to the other nations for focus .... and if one will drop the dogmatic preconceptions carried by most of the divides of professing Christianity and return to their drawing it is possible to gain full understanding of His intent

All of the prophets visions must be interpreted literally, not just a selected part .... and when symbolism is given one must then look for the literal rendering of the symbols either within the context of the passage or in other related scriptures .... it is essential to have a comprehensive overview of all prophetic scripture and knowledge of recorded historical events

The Lord and His prophets all point to the 70th week decreed as unfulfilled and still to come and if the period is studied in detail and compared with the historical past it will be evident that the events of the same have never come to pass, but must

The only reliable record of future events revealed in advance in scripture are from the Lord and His prophets [2 Peter 1:16-21]

The Lord has delayed the fulfillment of the 70th week and beyond according to His will

He was rejected by Israel, then offered His salvation universally during His dispensation of grace which cannot be measured by dating, and wants as many humans as will turn to Him for their saving [2 Peter 3:8-9]

A remnant of Israel has returned to the land today for His purposes, however He is still waiting and the 70th week decreed has not begun and is still pending .... neither has He revealed the dating

When this significant time frame begins all of the balance of the unfulfilled visions of the prophets will be realized with 100% accuracy

He is going to call His true ecclesia to immortality, bring His unprecedented tribulation and judgment upon an unbelieving world, bring a believing remnant of Israel under His covenant that He has with them during the tribulation, bring down all human governments of the nations at the battle of Armageddon [only Israel will be left standing], and gather the mortal survivors of the tribulation and separate them for entrance into His millennial kingdom upon the earth which will last for 1000 years

He will then judge all of the spirits of the unbelieving dead and eliminate them in His lake of fire

Then He will purge the current heavens and earth and restore the same to their original pristine condition, and His eternal kingdom will ensue and last forever

 

[parousia70]

The letters to the 7 churches may well be referring to the church universal,

Nothing in scripture teaches this. This is purely an invention of men created to suit their futurist bias.

I'm not sure I see a problem with having them refer to the 7 historical churches as well.

Jesus promised certain rewards/punishments would befall those 7, 1st century Churches via His coming TO THEM.

Note, for example, the promise of Rev.2: 26-29 that Jesus personally made to the actual, literal, 1st century Church at Thyatira. We can notice that Jesus promised the Thyatira congregation that he was coming to them (Rev 2:26) and that at that time he would deal with their false prophetess and destroy her and her followers by ruining them in the great tribulation (2:20-23). They [those actual living breathing 1st century people] were to "hold fast" until he came. Did Jesus not perform what he promised them? Was He issuing empty threats? If Jesus did not come to them as promised then He is a false prophet. The same holds true for the other 1st century congregations that were told specifically that Christ's coming was going to happen to them and bring either curses or blessings (see: Sardis - Rev 3:1-3; Philadelphia - 3:10-11; Ephesus 2:5, etc)

Again, If He did not come to them and meter out those rewards/punishments as He said He would, (as you are claiming He didn't) then He is a false prophet.

Which is why Futurism, to be consistent, needs the letters to the 7 Churches to not be literal Letters TO and FOR those 7, 1st century Churches. Unfortunately for futurism, the Bible does not teach this.

 

[parousia70]

No, Jesus meant it as HE meant it, not meant it as you choose to understand it. In the human understanding it doesn't really make any sense, because He is NOT HERE YET in our concept of "soon". Is He? (Or does 2,000+ years mean "soon" to you?!) So He obviously meant something greater, something we cannot grasp quite yet. But I have complete faith that someday we certainly will!

OK, You are appealing to an authority outside of scripture (your 5 senses) to tell you what these particular scriptures mean.
I prefer to stick to scripture. I find it interprets itself quite well.

No, I mean that God's "near, at hand , shortly, about to take place, quickly, in a very little while, etc" mean what HE meant by them. Accept that and move on. I have.

I agree. It means what He intended it to mean. You and I just disagree on what He intended.
Not sure what you mean by "move on" though....? Move on to what?

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Straightshot]

To the forum:

The whole argument presented on this thread is frivolous and boring

The answer is simple

There is so much scripture given related to the Lord's next intervention that has never taken place on the earth it isn't even funny

These things are documented in His word and there is no accurate and honest evidence that any have come to pass all taken together

He is either waiting to bring them, or He was a fraud and did not know what He was talking about

However, He has give the reason for His tarry in His Word

Some believe this .... and some do not

It is either true .... or false

Each man must decide for himself .... there is no real contest and bickering over the matter is a game of fools

 

[parousia70]

Paul told the church of Thessalonica to not be troubled.

Paul also told them that they would be given rest from their persecutions and God would repay their persecutors with tribulation when Jesus came. Not before he came, not when they died, but When he Came:

2 Thess 1:4-10
4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

If He didn't come to them and give them the rest He promised them, and repay their persecutors with tribulation as he promised He would, then the only conclusion we can come to is that the people from the 1st century Thessalonian church are STILL TODAY suffering in their persecution at the hands of their persecutors, and those who were persecuting them were never repaid with tribulation, as Paul promised them they would be.

 

[parousia70]

To the forum:

The whole argument presented on this thread is frivolous and boring

The answer is simple

There is so much scripture given related to the Lord's next intervention that has never taken place on the earth it isn't even funny

These things are documented in His word and there is no accurate and honest evidence that any have come to pass all taken together

He is either waiting to bring them, or He was a fraud and did not know what He was talking about

However, He has give the reason for His tarry in His Word

Some believe this .... and some do not

It is either true .... or false

Each man must decide for himself .... there is no real contest and bickering over the matter is a game of fools

If you find this to be so boring, I find it fascinating that you choose to partake in it.
Clearly it interests you enough to make the effort to bang out words on a keyboard and click the post button, so it must not be THAT boring, otherwise you'd simply not partake in the discussion at all.

 

[Straightshot]

It is a place to teach biblical truth and to defend the Lord's word The argument over "soon" is boring

This event of His coming is still "soon" today

So it is your rhetoric above that is moot .... and boring

 

[Douggg]

I agree that the Jews will come to believe that Jesus was/is the promised Messiah. However, I don't agree with the how they will get there. I feel like the eschatology that promotes the rebuilding of the temple, etc., encourages not just Jews but Christians to return to the temple sacrifices rather than the blood of Christ. I see that God destroyed the old temple for a reason and that was to stop that very thing. The old covenant is over and some are wanting to bring it back.

Hi Hank, when were Christians ever participants in the temple sacrifices? Most of us Christians's family tree comes from a gentile ancestry (non-Hebrew).

The temple sacrifices was something done by only Israel, the Hebrew people who God took out of Egypt and made a covenant with them on Mt. Sinai. Today those people are known as Jews. Jews are the ones who will be building a temple and conducting animal sacrifices.

There will be a falling away in Christianity, during that period, yes. But it will be because many Christians will turn away from Jesus, as they will be convinced that the person we call the Antichrist, is the true messiah.... and that their belief in Jesus was a mistake. The falling away is in 2thessalonians2:3.



.

 

[Achilles6129]

Nothing in scripture teaches this. This is purely an invention of men created to suit their futurist bias.

Not at all:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and [a]communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John," Rev. 1:1 (NASB)

"11 saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”" Rev. 1:11 (NASB)

The seven churches = the bond-servants. It then stands to reason that the seven churches represent the church universal.

Jesus promised certain rewards/punishments would befall those 7, 1st century Churches via His coming TO THEM.

Note, for example, the promise of Rev.2: 26-29 that Jesus personally made to the actual, literal, 1st century Church at Thyatira. We can notice that Jesus promised the Thyatira congregation that he was coming to them (Rev 2:26) and that at that time he would deal with their false prophetess and destroy her and her followers by ruining them in the great tribulation (2:20-23). They [those actual living breathing 1st century people] were to "hold fast" until he came. Did Jesus not perform what he promised them? Was He issuing empty threats? If Jesus did not come to them as promised then He is a false prophet. The same holds true for the other 1st century congregations that were told specifically that Christ's coming was going to happen to them and bring either curses or blessings (see: Sardis - Rev 3:1-3; Philadelphia - 3:10-11; Ephesus 2:5, etc)

Again, If He did not come to them and meter out those rewards/punishments as He said He would, (as you are claiming He didn't) then He is a false prophet.

Why can't those specific things in the letters also be referring to things that are happening to the historical churches?

 

[parousia70]

It is a place to teach biblical truth and to defend the Lord's word The argument over "soon" is boring

This event of His coming is still "soon" today

So it is your rhetoric above that is moot .... and boring

Apparently not boring enough for you to stop replying!

 

[parousia70]

Why can't those specific things in the letters also be referring to things that are happening to the historical churches?

What do you mean by "also"?
Aren't you claiming the letters aren't applicable at all to the original 7 churches they were directly addressed to?