Why did Protestantism mostly fail to take hold in Ireland?

[Quid est Veritas?]

Today is the Glorious 12th of July, the anniversary of the battle of the Boyne, the Protestant version of St. Patrick's day. This is when Orange orders stage marches in honour of their Protestantism and their forebears.

Why though is Ireland not Protestant today and Catholicism so closely associated to Irishness by most?

For Ireland was under English rule, Henry VIII was their king, and it underwent all the same things that occurred in England. Its monasteries were dissolved, its parishes and clergy became Protestant, there was strong pressure from above to convert...

Yet it didn't. Later the Plantations and successive English governments failed to do so as well. Importing Protestant Scots, giving land to Huguenots, sending fiery puritan preachers amongst them, persecuting priests, all of this failed to shift their allegiance.

After the independance of the Republic of Ireland, Protestantism went into steep decline there, from about 10% to 3% of the populace. Ulster Protestants sought protection in Unionism it seems, from the then Catholic state to the South.

What has caused this Catholic persistence against years of attempts, that had been so succesful in Germany, Britain and Scandinavia? Usually the people eventually followed their leaders, like France or Poland that returned to the catholic fold. Ireland is the exception.

Was it the fact that the prayer book wasn't in Gaelic? Most eventually started speaking English anyway and later gaelic preaching was undertaken.
Was it the fact that the English were their overlords, a piece of opposition? This made no difference in other countries and a strong Anglo-Norman Irish aristocracy initially sided with Protestantism.
Was it the many continentally trained Irish priests that snuck into the country? This same strategy failed dismally in England.
Is it something in the Irish character? Some Celtic trait? For the Highlanders of Scotland also stayed mostly Catholic, but the Welsh did not.

It is an interesting problem, probably multifactorial, but quite odd.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Adrian's wall factors in strongly but I can't remember why offhand. Perhaps it had to do with the legions being lost by the barbarians.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Adrian's wall factors in strongly but I can't remember why offhand. Perhaps it had to do with the legions being lost by the barbarians.

I think you posted in the wrong place?

Hadrian's Wall was between Caledonia (roughly Scotland) and the Roman province of Brittania, so perhaps gives us the difference between superficial Romanisation and not, but the lowland Scots also fell outside it. Ireland was never within the Empire.

Or do you mean the Antonine Wall? That is further North and does cut off Catholic Highlands from the Protestant Lowlands of Scotland. So you think that a subtle Romanisation had something to do with Protestantism in the British Isles?
Why then did areas outside the borders of the old Roman Empire become Protestant in continental Europe and the Romanised areas stay Catholic?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I think you posted in the wrong place?

Hadrian's Wall was between Caledonia (roughly Scotland) and the Roman province of Brittania, so perhaps gives us the difference between superficial Romanisation and not, but the lowland Scots also fell outside it. Ireland was never within the Empire.

Or do you mean the Antonine Wall? That is further North and does cut off Catholic Highlands from the Protestant Lowlands of Scotland. So you think that a subtle Romanisation had something to do with Protestantism in the British Isles?
Why then did areas outside the borders of the old Roman Empire become Protestant in continental Europe and the Romanised areas stay Catholic?

It was late and my history was clouded. I actually know nothing about it except to suggest that maybe they are too devoted to St Patty

 

[FireDragon76]

Oppressed people tend to become more conservative and defensive in regards to their traditions?

I mean, it's hard to make Protestantism look attractive when your Protestant overlords are slowly turning down the screws. I think the fact the Puritans in particular were so harsh in Ireland during Cromwell, really sealed the deal. It's like Northern Ireland got the most militantly anti-Catholic version of Protestantism.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Oppressed people tend to become more conservative and defensive in regards to their traditions?

I mean, it's hard to make Protestantism look attractive when your Protestant overlords are slowly turning down the screws. I think the fact the Puritans in particular were so harsh in Ireland during Cromwell, really sealed the deal. It's like Northern Ireland got the most militantly anti-Catholic version of Protestantism.

Why would that keep Catholicism in favor?

 

[FireDragon76]

Why would that keep Catholicism in favor?

People value their autonomy in little things like religion and conscience all the more, when everything else is being taken away.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

People value their autonomy in little things like religion and conscience all the more, when everything else is being taken away.

I guess we have different views of what autonomy is. Imo it's found outside the camp.

 

[Eryk]

Interesting changes in the numbers of Protestants in Ireland: 20th century decline to 21st century

The previous pattern of decline started to change during the 1990s. By the time of the 2006 census of the Republic of Ireland, a little over 5% of the state was Protestant. The 2011 census of the Republic of Ireland found that the Protestant population in every county had grown. In 2012, the Irish Independent reported that "Irish Anglicanism is undergoing a quite remarkable period of growth" due to immigration and Irish Catholics converting.

 

[FireDragon76]

Here in the US, "Irish-Catholic" go together like white on rice, so there must be something to it.

Though, my mother's maiden name was Irish (Dempsey) and they were Nazarene and Methodist, not Catholic. I'm not an expert on how that came to be but perhaps some were not so Catholic after all!

 

[FireDragon76]

I knew some Irish folks online that I chatted with and many of them were disheartened by the attitudes of the Catholic church, particularly the scandals around orphanages and sexual abuse. Young people are rebelling against the perceived deference to clerics, some of which was blamed for the scandals. So it doesn't surprise me that there is more interest in Protestant conversion. But I think Ireland becoming irreligious is even more likely.

 

[Eryk]

Here in the US, "Irish-Catholic" go together like white on rice, so there must be something to it.

Though, my mother's maiden name was Irish (Dempsey) and they were Nazarene and Methodist, not Catholic. I'm not an expert on how that came to be but perhaps some were not so Catholic after all!

Irish Americans - Wikipedia

Irish Americans today are predominantly Protestant with a Catholic minority. The Protestants' ancestors arrived primarily in the colonial era, while Catholics are primarily descended from immigrants of the 19th century. Irish leaders have been prominent in the Catholic Church in the United States for over 150 years. The Irish have been leaders in the Presbyterian and Methodisttraditions, as well.[97]

Surveys in the 1990s show that of Americans who identify themselves as "Irish", 51% said they were Protestant and 36% identified as Catholic. In the South, Protestants account for 73% of those claiming Irish origins, while Catholics account for 19%. It is common for Protestant Scotch-Irish Americans to call themselves "Irish", in particular because most immigration to colonial America was of Protestant settlers, so there was no need to distinguish themselves from Irish Catholics. In the North, 45% of those claiming Irish origin are Catholic, while 39% are Protestant.[97]

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think Dempsey is a Scotts-Irish name though. It seems almost exclusively Catholic, from the research I have done.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

A lot of Irish that emigrated to the colonies in the early days were Protestant as well. Usually the poor did not emigrate except as indentured servants or prisoners in those days, so most who willingly emigrated were Middle Class - which in Ireland largely equated to Protestantism.

Only after the potato famine did the poor emigrate en-masse.

Also, while Scotch make up a big part of Irish Protestants, many native Irish converted early on, such as most of the mediaeval aristocracy. This is why it is such a mystery.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Oppressed people tend to become more conservative and defensive in regards to their traditions?

I mean, it's hard to make Protestantism look attractive when your Protestant overlords are slowly turning down the screws. I think the fact the Puritans in particular were so harsh in Ireland during Cromwell, really sealed the deal. It's like Northern Ireland got the most militantly anti-Catholic version of Protestantism.

Why did it remain so staunchly Catholic though, before Cromwell? The Stuarts had a fairly lax hand in Ireland, and although quite high church, they certainly did encourage the protestant Church of Ireland as well.

I do agree it probably has a lot to do with opposing their ancient enemies, the English, though and there was no native reformation like Knox in Scotland, that I am aware of.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Interesting changes in the numbers of Protestants in Ireland: 20th century decline to 21st century

It is clear that non-relgion is growing quite fast in Ireland, but this rise in Protestantism seems to be driven by conversion from Catholicism. Perhaps this is a rejection of the old state-supported Catholicism they used to have? I am unsure how much effect Catholic scandals would have on the numbers here, but my gut feeling is something else has to be going on for such a sustained trend to emerge.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

A lot of Irish that emigrated to the colonies in the early days were Protestant as well. Usually the poor did not emigrate except as indentured servants or prisoners in those days, so most who willingly emigrated were Middle Class - which in Ireland largely equated to Protestantism.

Only after the potato famine did the poor emigrate en-masse.

Also, while Scotch make up a big part of Irish Protestants, many native Irish converted early on, such as most of the mediaeval aristocracy. This is why it is such a mystery.

Are you saying that the potato famine cleared the country of Protestants?

 

[FireDragon76]

I think we tend to assume Britain is naturally Protestant, and its history shows it just ain't so. The Reformation almost didn't make it to Britain. The earliest evangelical missionaries to Britain were Lutherans that were killed (I think the Lollards were more sectarians than proto-evangelicals, honestly, since Wycliffe's soteriology was rooted in medieval penitentialism).

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Are you saying that the potato famine cleared the country of Protestants?

No, I am saying that the Potato Famine disproportionately affected Catholics, as most of the poor were Catholic and this is where most of the 'Catholic Irish' diaspora likely originated.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I think we tend to assume Britain is naturally Protestant, and its history shows it just ain't so. The Reformation almost didn't make it to Britain. The earliest evangelical missionaries to Britain were Lutherans that were killed (I think the Lollards were more sectarians than proto-evangelicals, honestly, since Wycliffe's soteriology was rooted in medieval penitentialism).

I agree that Britain could have ended up Catholic. I made a thread to debate when this became irreversible last year. The question though, is why couldn't Ireland have been made Protestant when it sustained much the same pressures as England.

In my opinion, the Lollards played a large part in the success of English Protestantism, as many of their ideas resurfaced in Dissenters later, they were still active and persecuted up till the Reformation and the most Protestant parts of England were also the most Lollard before this. Perhaps why English Catholicism dwindled into a minority, but not the Irish, is because so much of their countrymen had fallen in with Lollardy in the three centuries preceding the Reformation?
It should be remembered that Lollardy went far beyond Wycliffe, and remained in touch with continental Protestantism later. Lollard tracts came from areas that fell under Protestant influence. Perhaps in like manner that Hussites and Waldensians influenced and became absorbed into larger Protestantism, Lollardy did as well. I think later anticlericalism in Britain certainly has a strong whiff of Lollardy to it. It is difficult to say though.