Why did pope change sabbath?

[OntheDL]

Question: I seem to see this idea of the little horn power...which is interpreted as being the Pope or the Papacy...of "thinking to change times and law", as pertaining to the changing of the Sabbath to Sunday. Well isn't it necessary for everyone ELSE to think they did so as well, esspecially us Sundaykeepers? But I can't seem to find any Sundayworshippers who seem to care what the Papacy claims to have done, or give them any kind of credit for the "act".

If the Adventists were right that the Saturday-Sunday is a dividing issue, then why should any 'current' Sunday worshipper care or take notice of which side they are?

 

[DontheBaptist]

Well Onthe DL, I think that's the problem...no one I know thinks the Adventists are "right" about the Sabbath-Sunday being any kind of "dividing" issue! I mean I'm sure it can be if you WANT it to be. But I have NEVER heard, in my many years of Sunday worship, some disparaging sermon...or even remark for that matter, about Sabbathkeepers who want to keep the Sabbath. And if we DID have a problem with it, we'd have to look no further than our representative Sabbathkeepers, the Seventh Day Baptist! We LOVE how they have stood for the Sabbath Truth, not only here in America, but also everywhere else they have gone. What I find to be interesting is the fact they DO NOT agree with Adventism on the "dividing" nuances of the Sabbath, esspecially the "Seal of God/Mark of the Beast" thing which they reject as unscriptural. But they continue to be everybit as dedicated to witnessing about the Sabbath...just like you, and we honor and RESPECT that witness...just like with YOU.

 

[OntheDL]

You are going off topic here. It's about the change of the sabbath, not about soliciting opinions on the Adventist belief.

Well Onthe DL, I think that's the problem...no one I know thinks the Adventists are "right" about the Sabbath-Sunday being any kind of "dividing" issue! I mean I'm sure it can be if you WANT it to be. But I have NEVER heard, in my many years of Sunday worship, some disparaging sermon...or even remark for that matter, about Sabbathkeepers who want to keep the Sabbath. And if we DID have a problem with it, we'd have to look no further than our representative Sabbathkeepers, the Seventh Day Baptist! We LOVE how they have stood for the Sabbath Truth, not only here in America, but also everywhere else they have gone. What I find to be interesting is the fact they DO NOT agree with Adventism on the "dividing" nuances of the Sabbath, esspecially the "Seal of God/Mark of the Beast" thing which they reject as unscriptural. But they continue to be everybit as dedicated to witnessing about the Sabbath...just like you, and we honor and RESPECT that witness...just like with YOU.

 

[DontheBaptist]

Onthe DL...I seem to remember several years ago that a particular Seventh Day Adventist Church in Florida didn't seem to care for my "opinions" on "Adventist belief" either. As a matter of fact, they cared so little for it that they told me not to come back! And interestingly, I seem to remember discussing with great passion, the supposed "change" of the Sabbath to Sunday from a Baptist perspective. Consequently, the Pope doesn't get the credit in our book. We believe it was because of the impact and the significance of the Resurrection ITSELF, as well as seeing the risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that the day was "changed"...or I'd rather say, "victoriously observed." Documents written by Barnabas(135), and Justin Martyr(150) indicate that Sunday worship was the well known, established practice of the Christian church by the middle of the 2nd Century. Did it take the place of the Sabbath? No, and no one says it did! That was not the purpose. Even your most learned and emminent theologian on the Sabbath, the late Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi made a point to mention 2nd century Sunday observance in his "Endtime Issues" Number 87, as a way of correcting traditional Adventist teaching, (and Ellen White), that Sunday worship came about in the Fourth Century or later. Well, that Adventist Church in Florida didn't care for me pointing all this out, while taking up "valuable Sabbath School time". But it's cool. I'm off to another thread...just don't tell them I'm coming!

 

[tall73]

Justin Martyr(150) indicate that Sunday worship was the well known, established practice of the Christian church by the middle of the 2nd Century.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
Justin Martyr's First Apology.


Just so folks can see the quote for themselves. Whatever you might think of the theology (first day of creation, resurrection) the point remains he says this is the day on which they all hold their common assembly.

Barnabas(135)

Further, He says to them, "Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure." Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we
keep the eighth day with joyfullness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens.
Epistle of Barnabas


Again, the theology has some oddities, in fact much of Barnabas' epistle seems rather odd to me. However, it shares the common reason of the resurrection. And what both agree on is the notion that they were already assembling on the first day.

In case anyone gets confused, I don't think Sunday is any more holy than Tuesday. Just noting the historical quotes.

 

[OntheDL]

Onthe DL...I seem to remember several years ago that a particular Seventh Day Adventist Church in Florida didn't seem to care for my "opinions" on "Adventist belief" either. As a matter of fact, they cared so little for it that they told me not to come back! And interestingly, I seem to remember discussing with great passion, the supposed "change" of the Sabbath to Sunday from a Baptist perspective. Consequently, the Pope doesn't get the credit in our book. We believe it was because of the impact and the significance of the Resurrection ITSELF, as well as seeing the risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that the day was "changed"...or I'd rather say, "victoriously observed." Documents written by Barnabas(135), and Justin Martyr(150) indicate that Sunday worship was the well known, established practice of the Christian church by the middle of the 2nd Century. Did it take the place of the Sabbath? No, and no one says it did! That was not the purpose. Even your most learned and emminent theologian on the Sabbath, the late Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi made a point to mention 2nd century Sunday observance in his "Endtime Issues" Number 87, as a way of correcting traditional Adventist teaching, (and Ellen White), that Sunday worship came about in the Fourth Century or later. Well, that Adventist Church in Florida didn't care for me pointing all this out, while taking up "valuable Sabbath School time". But it's cool. I'm off to another thread...just don't tell them I'm coming!

Yes, Bacchiocchi was learned and held a doctorate from the most prestigious Jesuit university in the world. But I think we can discern his 'research' from facts, truth and inspiration.

And yes, we don't deny that Sunday worship came into the early church along side of the Sabbath worship. But the fact remains that the official transfer came by the decree of Pope Sylvester in the 4th century. And the fact remains as we saw in Gregory I's quote that even as late as 6th and 7th century, some Christians still observed the 7th-day Sabbath. And the facts still remains that the law of God is etched in stone and is stored in the Ark of Covenant in the tabernacle in heaven.

I attended and was baptized in a Baptist church. Before that I went to Non-denominational and Pentecostal churches. After I learned about the sabbath, I didn't sit in their Sunday school classes and tell them how wrong they are. Neither did I go to Baptist or Pentecostal subforums to shove down their throats that their beliefs are unbiblical. I don't have problems with others believe in different doctrines. I'm just glad I found what I believe is the truth. We each walk our own paths and in the end answer to the Lord individually.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I attended and was baptized in a Baptist church. Before that I went to Non-denominational and Pentecostal churches. After I learned about the sabbath, I didn't sit in their Sunday school classes and tell them how wrong they are. Neither did I go to Baptist or Pentecostal subforums to shove down their throats that their beliefs are unbiblical. I don't have problems with others believe in different doctrines. I'm just glad I found what I believe is the truth. We each walk our own paths and in the end answer to the Lord individually.

Amen!

Well said brother...

 

[stinsonmarri]

Well Onthe DL, I think that's the problem...no one I know thinks the Adventists are "right" about the Sabbath-Sunday being any kind of "dividing" issue! I mean I'm sure it can be if you WANT it to be. But I have NEVER heard, in my many years of Sunday worship, some disparaging sermon...or even remark for that matter, about Sabbathkeepers who want to keep the Sabbath. And if we DID have a problem with it, we'd have to look no further than our representative Sabbathkeepers, the Seventh Day Baptist! We LOVE how they have stood for the Sabbath Truth, not only here in America, but also everywhere else they have gone. What I find to be interesting is the fact they DO NOT agree with Adventism on the "dividing" nuances of the Sabbath, esspecially the "Seal of God/Mark of the Beast" thing which they reject as unscriptural. But they continue to be everybit as dedicated to witnessing about the Sabbath...just like you, and we honor and RESPECT that witness...just like with YOU.

DontheBaptist:

I am an Adventist for over fifty years and I do not agree with the Adventism doctrine of the Seal of Yahweh and the Mark of the Beast. I believe in the Biblical account of both found in Rev Chapters six and seven also Rev 6:2; 13:11-17; 19:20. Please all of you stop thinking that all SDA follow doctrines and traditions instead solely the Bible. Thank You!

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[stinsonmarri]

Onthe DL...I seem to remember several years ago that a particular Seventh Day Adventist Church in Florida didn't seem to care for my "opinions" on "Adventist belief" either. As a matter of fact, they cared so little for it that they told me not to come back! And interestingly, I seem to remember discussing with great passion, the supposed "change" of the Sabbath to Sunday from a Baptist perspective. Consequently, the Pope doesn't get the credit in our book. We believe it was because of the impact and the significance of the Resurrection ITSELF, as well as seeing the risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that the day was "changed"...or I'd rather say, "victoriously observed." Documents written by Barnabas(135), and Justin Martyr(150) indicate that Sunday worship was the well known, established practice of the Christian church by the middle of the 2nd Century. Did it take the place of the Sabbath? No, and no one says it did! That was not the purpose. Even your most learned and emminent theologian on the Sabbath, the late Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi made a point to mention 2nd century Sunday observance in his "Endtime Issues" Number 87, as a way of correcting traditional Adventist teaching, (and Ellen White), that Sunday worship came about in the Fourth Century or later. Well, that Adventist Church in Florida didn't care for me pointing all this out, while taking up "valuable Sabbath School time". But it's cool. I'm off to another thread...just don't tell them I'm coming!

DontheBaptist:

I sorry they ask you not to come back. What I would have asked you to do is to show where in the Bible did Yahweh or Yashua give a direct order that They changed the Sabbath. Also you make not give credence to the Catholic Church but History prove without a doubt that Constantine the Great change the day and later under the Roman Catholic Church it was an degree under death my friend. Baptist's did not start until here in the USA under Roger William who was put out by the Puritans and came to Conn. I urge you to please read your history before putting down the truth of the Sabbath my friend.

Finally my friend are you aware that every country in their language except English speaking people states seventh day means Shabbat. The Indo-European had it also but change the names of the week to pagan Indo-European deities? Even in Italy the name of the seventh day is Sabbath check it out! The Sabbath has never been changed and we have asked for years for anyone to show proof in the Bible that it is so. No one has collect the millions of dollars we have offered over the years from our church. Find it and claim the prize!

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[Cribstyl]

DontheBaptist:

I sorry they ask you not to come back. What I would have asked you to do is to show where in the Bible did Yahweh or Yashua give a direct order that They changed the Sabbath.

Respectfully dear friend
Why would God have to declare change to something that He never established with the world in the first place?
Your request appears as a "preempted defensive stunt", unless you can first show us where God commanded that "all nations of should keep the Sabbath.
(Hmm, this may explains the unfounded "creation instituted sabbath confussion")

The fact is; God did establish the sabbath as a sign between Himself and only one nation means the "game is over ".
The bible is not confusing when we apply it to understanding.

Asking Jewish Rabbis about Sabbath history is a reasonble option for some people to learn and understand Sabbath truths.

Also you may not give credence to the Catholic Church but History prove without a doubt that Constantine the Great change the day and later under the Roman Catholic Church it was an degree under death my friend.

Hmmm, How much creditability do you give to Catholic claims on issues concerning their apostolic authority?? (repeat, repeat) No further comment.

Baptist's did not start until here in the USA under Roger William who was put out by the Puritans and came to Conn. I urge you to please read your history before putting down the truth of the Sabbath my friend.

I dont see Don putting down the Sabbath. I see him repeating that the Baptists are proud to recocognized the Seventh Day Baptists claims about the sabbath.
SDA truth depends on answers from you and whomever we ask.
You keep claiming not to believe some of SDA doctrines, should we follow your lead?
Is it not the true, that those who currently hold SDA records reserves the right to edit or change it?
The Baptist do not claim an infallable prophets and inspired writtings comparable to scriptures.


What we can agree on is that God's word is the truth to live by.
We are to consider "only" God's word as food for our souls. Commentary have a human agenda unlike God's word.

The Holy Spirit is able to teach those who honestly seek what God commands and requires of His children.

When we're singing from the same song book we can make beautiful music together.

 

[numlock321]

have you ever think hard about this verse;


Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

it is clear and been prophesied that there will be sudden change of the laws, and one of that is the commandment of God which was the SABBATH..

 

[Pythons]

OntheDL,

The Catholic Church also made equally explicit statements that Peter was the 1st Pope...
...Do you put equal weight behind the Catholic Church saying that?
...If not, why?

Actually the pope did changed the Sabbath to Sunday.
Lets' see what they said about it...

"The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day. The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians." ---The Catholic Encyclopedia, Commandments of God, Volume IV, © 1908

"Q. How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holydays?
A. By the very act of changing the sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the Church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power." --- The Douay Catechism (An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine) of 1649

"Q. What warrant have you for keeping the Sunday, preferably to the ancient Sabbath, which was the Saturday?
A. We have for it the authority of the Catholic Church, and apostolical tradition.
Q. But has the Church a power to make any alterations in the commandments of God?
A. The commandments of God, as far as they contain his eternal law, are unalterable and indispensable; but as to whatever was only ceremonial, they cease to oblige, since the Mosaic law was abrogated by Christ's death. Hence, as far as the commandment obliges us to set aside some part of our time for the worship and service of our Creator, it is an unalterable and unchangeable precept of the eternal law, in which the Church cannot dispense: but for as much as it prescribes the seventh day in particular for this purpose, it is no more than a ceremonial precept of the old law, which obligeth not Christians. And therefore, instead of the seventh day, and other festivals appointed in the old law, the Church has prescribed the Sundays and holydays to be set apart for God's worship; and these we are now obliged to keep in consequence of God's commandment, instead of the ancient Sabbath.---Catholic Christian Instructed in the Sacraments, Sacrifice, Ceremonies, and Observances of the Church, by the Right Rev. Dr. Richard Challoner

"Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her;—she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
Q. In what manner can we show a Protestant, that he speaks unreasonably against fasts and abstinences?
A. Ask him why he keeps Sunday, and not Saturday, as his day of rest, since he is unwilling either to fast or to abstain. If he reply, that the Scripture orders him to keep the Sunday, but says nothing as to fasting and abstinence, tell him the Scripture speaks of Saturday or the Sabbath, but gives no command anywhere regarding Sunday or the first day of the week. If, then, he neglects Saturday as a day of rest and holiness, and substitutes Sunday in its place, and this merely because such was the usage of the ancient Church, should he not, if he wishes to act consistently, observe fasting and abstinence, because the ancient Church so ordained?" ---A Doctrinal Catechism by Stephen Keenan, Imprimatur by John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York


"Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. It could not have been otherwise as none in those days would have dreamed of doing anything in matters spiritual and ecclesiastical and religious without her. And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things". ---Letter to Cardinal Gibbons, November 11, 1895, from C.F. Thomas.

"The Church is above the Bible; and this transference of Sabbath observance to Sunday is proof positive of that fact. Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God." --- The Catholic Record, London, Ontario Canada, September 1, 1923

"The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate (change) laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." --- Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop.

The reason? I think the quotes already addressed it...

 

[ricker]

have you ever think hard about this verse;


Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

it is clear and been prophesied that there will be sudden change of the laws, and one of that is the commandment of God which was the SABBATH..

I'm not so sure that thinking about changing times and laws means that it actually happened, and suddenly yet.

After Constantine changed the sabbath to sunday, what happened for a time and time and dividing of times under his hand? How long is that anyway?

 

[Cribstyl]

Thank you, question answered. I want to add, the reason I became an adventist is their answers to my questions are always supported by bible text, and "why" questions supported by historical documents. I have yet to get a "well, that is just what we do" answer from an adventist!

Who came up with the questions that made you decide that only the SDA have the right answers?
The first of many questions should be along the line of; Who is God? "What must I do to be saved?" What does God say to me or about me? What does God require of me?


Somehow, the questions I think you're talking about is about keeping the sabbath and keeping the ten commandments.

I dare you to show what scriptures made you a believer?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I dare you to show what scriptures made you a believer?

Crib... really??

Why are you being so antagonistic? Tbaine was sharing his testimony for what he found to be the truth... why do you think he has to justify that to you?

 

[ricker]

Originally Posted by numlock321

have you ever think hard about this verse;


Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

it is clear and been prophesied that there will be sudden change of the laws, and one of that is the commandment of God which was the SABBATH..
​

After Constantine changed the sabbath to sunday, what happened for a time and time and dividing of times under his hand? How long is that anyway?

Just curious.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

It is 1260 prophetic days or 1260 years....

 

[ricker]

It is 1260 prophetic days or 1260 years....

Whatever you say. Who was given into Constantine's hand for 1260 years?

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, andthink to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Whatever you say.

You ask for an explanation, twice, to the meaning of something and this is your response? Doesn't appear like a teachable spirit to me.... you'll have to get others on here to answer your questions if you don't like mine...

 

[ricker]

You ask for an explanation, twice, to the meaning of something and this is your response? Doesn't appear like a teachable spirit to me.... you'll have to get others on here to answer your questions if you don't like mine...

I asked twice because no one answered the first time. Does that mean I am not asking in good faith?

I asked what a time, time and dividing of times was and you said 1260 years with no explanation as to why. That is why I said "whatever you say" (and I didn't argue).

You never did address who was given into Constantines hand for this amount of time.

If you don't know, or aren't interested in saying, why you think Constantine fulfills this prophecy, so be it. Just don't try to blame me.