Why did our redeemer need to be fully God?

[nopq]

Why did our redeemer need to be fully God?

As well as being fully human?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Why did our redeemer need to be fully God?

As well as being fully human?

So much time had passed, that if it was possible with a regular human - it would have already been done.

 

[Dave L]

Why did our redeemer need to be fully God?

As well as being fully human?

THE SYMBOL OF CHALCEDON

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [coessential] with us according to the manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

First, notice Jesus had a human body and soul. But his person is God. Unlike us. We are body, soul, and person (spirit).

And Hebrews says;

“For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;” Hebrews 10:4–12 (KJV 1900)

Historic Creeds and Confessions. (1997). (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Lexham Press.

 

[BobRyan]

Why did our redeemer need to be fully God?

As well as being fully human?

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself" 2 Cor 5.

"If you have seen Me you have seen the Father" John 14:7-11 - no one else could say that.. no angel no human... not even a sinless human.

John 1
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. ... 18 No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him. ---- No one but God could claim to have done such a thing.


"he was the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world" 1 John 2:2 NIV. No Angel, no single human could pay such a massive price of suffering.

In heaven Satan had raised many false accusations against the character of God as we see in Job 1 and 2. Christ came to give a revelation of the Love of God - the true character of God on full display under extreme conditions.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Why did our redeemer need to be fully God?

As well as being fully human?

So that Christians could receive God's life, as was intended in the Garden of Eden. Adam was good, but only had natural life. God's will was that Adam should be completed with spiritual life as represented by the tree of Life in Eden. Adam blew it, as we know. Lord Jesus gives us another opportunity to receive Him and so enjoy eternal life.

 

[Dave L]

So that Christians could receive God's life, as was intended in the Garden of Eden. Adam was good, but only had natural life. God's will was that Adam should be completed with spiritual life as represented by the tree of Life in Eden. Adam blew it, as we know. Lord Jesus gives us another opportunity to receive Him and so enjoy eternal life.

What thrills me, had Adam not sinned, we would have only his imputed human righteousness. But since Christ imputed HIS (God's) righteousness to believers, we are considered as righteous as God.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Why did our redeemer need to be fully God?

As well as being fully human?

I was listening to a Voddie Baucham teaching last night and he was speaking on the topic of salvation, and the way he said it struck me when he said, "if you could lose your salvation then you would" (A statement he said he took from John MacArthur (? spelling) ). He went on to ask the rhetorical question, "How arrogant do you have to be to think there's a possibility that you could lose your salvation but you haven't?" He gave the example of a person saying "I'm about to die, but I'm on my way to heaven. There's a possibility I could mess this up... but I haven't." He answers this statement by answering, "You probably just did! [i.e. Mess this up, by the display of pride in self]

The issue is, God had to go through all of this just to save us... we are fallen, sinful creatures. Not only did Jesus have to die a sinless man in order He be raised from the dead, but He had to leave us with a guarantor, or as the King James version put it an earnest, in the person of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity....

An earnest is a word we still use today. Like when we buy a house, we put down earnest in the form of a check, that's a promise that we will come back on closing day with the full amount, and if you dont do that the seller gets to keep the land plus the check.

God's earnest He put down on our salvation is the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Trinity. If we aren't saved through that earnest deposit, then God looses the Holy Spirit... meaning, the only way we aren't saved when that Day comes is if God stops being God.

Why? Because we can't, as fallen sinful beings save ourselves. Our justification requires that Jesus be able to be raised, and the only thing that stops men from being raised is sin. (The wages of sin is death).

Forgiveness requires that sinless perfection, that perfect Holiness and no sinful fallen man has it, but God Himself provided it by fully taking on flesh, living under the law, dying unjustly while willingly offering up His life as our sacrifice for sin, and conquering death itself.

The greatest miracle of all, was this. Why did it have to be God? Because we can't save ourselves.

 

[BobRyan]

I was listening to a Voddie Baucham teaching last night and he was speaking on the topic of salvation, and the way he said it struck me when he said, "if you could lose your salvation then you would" (A statement he said he took from John MacArthur (? spelling) ).

A cleaver quip to be sure - but does it fit the Bible facts? for example is it at all logical to quip "if an Angel could fall -- then they would all fall" make sense given that we know only some of them fell... not all of them?

Cleaver quips are not a good substitute for sola scriptura testing.

Sometimes MacArthur tosses out a "cleaver quip" without making the Bible case to make it stick. No text says "if you could fall ... you would" and that is irrefutable.

By contrast we DO have Bible texts warning us not to fall.

Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked"
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Rom 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Therefore insofar as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 if somehow I may move my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection proves to be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are as well. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

1 Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. So they do it to obtain a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way as not to run aimlessly; I box in such a way, as to avoid hitting air; 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the Gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified from it.

MacArthur's "cleaver quip" is in direct contradiction to the warnings in the Bible regarding the very thing MacArthur's quip claims is "not possible". It would be as if we were "warned" in the Bible "don't jump up in the air so high... that the sun will singe the top of your hair" -- the fact is that the Bible does not engage in repeated and resounding nonsensical warnings against what cannot possibly ever happen.

 

[bling]

We can worship Christ.

 

[com7fy8]

"God is love" (in 1 John 4:8&16); so God gave His own best.

Also >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might become the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

All along, it has been God's intention not only to save us from our sins, but to conform us to the image of Jesus so we are pleasing to our Father like His own Son is so pleasing to Him. So, He sent Jesus to be His prototype of how He wants us to become and love. One lesser than Jesus could not be so pleasing to God and therefore could not be His model for how He would have us become.

"This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!" (in Matthew 17:5)

You ask why our Redeemer needs to be God? Well, when you redeem cans, all you have done is purchase them, but they are not really of value unless you change those redeemed cans into something of great value. So, yes Jesus has redeemed us from our sins, but now also He is changing us to become in our character the way He is, so we are pleasing to our Father like He is, plus loving the way Jesus loves as family, so we may share with Him as His "many brethren" (Romans 8:29). And this is bringing us to become redeemed to the full value which is possible with God.

And the process of this is in how His love perfects us >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

Therefore, we are not only saved from our sins and given some label of being "righteous", but God's love is changing our character so we are and love like Jesus > "in this world". Our redemption, then, to our full potential value is in comparison with Jesus on Heaven's throne who is our Standard. No less can be pleasing to our Father, like His own Son is.

 

[Hazelelponi]

A cleaver quip to be sure - but does it fit the Bible facts? for example is it at all logical to quip "if an Angel could fall -- then they would all fall" make sense given that we know only some of them fell... not all of them?

Cleaver quips are not a good substitute for sola scriptura testing.

Sometimes MacArthur tosses out a "cleaver quip" without making the Bible case to make it stick. No text says "if you could fall ... you would" and that is irrefutable.

By contrast we DO have Bible texts warning us not to fall.

Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked"
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Rom 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Therefore insofar as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 if somehow I may move my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection proves to be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are as well. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

1 Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. So they do it to obtain a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way as not to run aimlessly; I box in such a way, as to avoid hitting air; 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the Gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified from it.

MacArthur's "cleaver quip" is in direct contradiction to the warnings in the Bible regarding the very thing MacArthur's quip claims is "not possible". It would be as if we were "warned" in the Bible "don't jump up in the air so high... that the sun will singe the top of your hair" -- the fact is that the Bible does not engage in repeated and resounding nonsensical warnings against what cannot possibly ever happen.

My post was in response to the OP who wanted to know why Jesus - being God in the flesh - was necessary to salvation.

Certainly it seems, my points were lost to you, as your seeming to express the thought process that mankind can simply pull themselves up by their bootstraps and follow the law perfectly and rise from their own graves - no Savior necessary outside of telling us to do it...

Of course, that was exactly my issue with Islam - what's a Savior even for? The answer left me wanting so I eventually struck out in search of real answers - Whats a Savior even for, if all we have to do is have a measure more "good" than sin..

Certainly, if this point of the matter is something the questioning OP wants to flesh out with me in order to more fully understand the Scriptural points I've here made, I'm happy to do so with them, but since otherwise, this would be considered off topic to the OP (since my comments related to the fact that sinless perfection isn't found in fallen man, and to overcome death itself in order to save us from the just requirements of the law, (death) such perfection was a requirement therefore our Savior needed to be fully God as well as fully man) then I'm not going to have arguments that risk taking this topic off it's intended course - which is to help someone in need more fully understand Salvation...

 

[BobRyan]

I was listening to a Voddie Baucham teaching last night and he was speaking on the topic of salvation, and the way he said it struck me when he said, "if you could lose your salvation then you would" (A statement he said he took from John MacArthur (? spelling) ). He went on to ask the rhetorical question, "How arrogant do you have to be to think there's a possibility that you could lose your salvation but you haven't?"

Interesting quote

My post was in response to the OP who wanted to know why Jesus - being God in the flesh - was necessary to salvation.

Certainly it seems, my points were lost to you, .

It is very hard to see how it has anything to do with the incarnation fact.

your seeming to express the thought process that mankind can simply pull themselves up by their bootstraps and follow the law perfectly and rise from their own graves - no Savior necessary

that is a bigger leap in logic than the first one... why not stay on topic?

so next we have this --

e my comments related to the fact that sinless perfection isn't found in fallen man,

The OP as I understand it, is not asking "why couldn't sinful fallen man be the savior -- why did it have to be God-man?" ... The question appears to be that a sinless human or a human-angel composit or God the Son coming just as a Human with nothing at all linked back to His all-knowing all-powerful God self.

I think the OP is asking "why not have a sinless man, or sinless angel? or Jesus as only a sinless man -- nothing of His God self.... Why did He have to be God-man?"

Are you switching it to "why can't a fallen sinner be the Savior of all mankind"??

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Why did our redeemer need to be fully God?

As well as being fully human?

This is the best Eastern Orthodox explanation, which is from the Easter Sermon written by St. John Chrysostom.

Let no one weep for his iniquities, for pardon has shown forth from the grave.
Let no one fear death, for the Savior’s death has set us free.
He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it.
By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive.
He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh.
And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry:
Hell, said he, was embittered, when it encountered Thee in the lower regions.
It was embittered, for it was abolished.
It was embittered, for it was mocked.
It was embittered, for it was slain.
It was embittered, for it was overthrown.
It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains.
It took a body, and met God face to face.
It took earth, and encountered Heaven.
It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.

O Death, where is your sting? O Hell, where is your victory? Christ is risen, and you are overthrown. Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen. Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice. Christ is risen, and life reigns. Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave. For Christ, being risen from the dead, is become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. To Him be glory and dominion unto ages of ages. Amen.

(This is read in every Orthodox church during Pascha, and the "Christ is Risen" is shouted by the congregation)

 

[BobRyan]

Joel 2:
12 “Yet even now,” declares the Lord,
“Return to Me with all your heart,
And with fasting, weeping, and mourning;
13 And tear your heart and not merely your garments.”
Now return to the Lord your God,
For He is gracious and compassionate,
Slow to anger, abounding in mercy
And relenting of catastrophe.
14 Who knows, He might turn and relent,
And leave a blessing behind Him,
Resulting in a grain offering and a drink offering
For the Lord your God.
15 Blow a trumpet in Zion,
Consecrate a fast, proclaim a solemn assembly,
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation,
Assemble the elders,
Gather the children and the nursing infants.
Have the groom come out of his room
And the bride out of her bridal chamber.
17 Let the priests, the Lord’s ministers,
Weep between the porch and the altar,
And let them say, “Spare Your people, Lord,
And do not make Your inheritance a disgrace,
With the nations jeering at them.
Why should those among the peoples say,
‘Where is their God?’”
18 Then the Lord will be zealous for His land,
And will have compassion for His people

Let no one weep for his iniquities, for pardon has shown forth from the grave.
Let no one fear death, for the Savior’s death has set us free.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why did our redeemer need to be fully God?

As well as being fully human?

"For that which He has not assumed He has not healed; but that which is united to His Deity is also saved." - St. Gregory Nazianzus, Epistle to Cleodonus

God became man. God became a full participant in our humanity--including death. God became man and died. And then He rose from the dead. Death has been defeated by the only One who can defeat death, God, and He does so as a man. Thus humanity united to Himself dies and rises. We therefore, by Christ, share in God, are united with God by grace, and share in the life of Christ.

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." - 1 Corinthians 15:22

-CryptoLutheran