Why did Jesus tell the thief that he would be in paradise with Him that same day?

[BobRyan]

Jesus said He would be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth following His crucifixion in Matthew 12:40

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth

But Jesus also said to the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" Luke 23:43

And Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

So this seems like a contradiction, doesn't it? Was He in two places at once? The heart of the earth, where Jesus went to preach to the spirits in captivity as per 1 Peter 3:19, is surely not paradise by any stretch of the imagination.

1. There are no commas in the greek texts of the first century -- they were added centuries later ... commas change the meaning of the sentence

Luke 23: The REQUEST:

"Remember me WHEN YOU COME into your kingdom."​

The RESPONSE
"Verily I say to you today you SHALL be with me in Paradise"

Resurrection day - John 20
John 20 "I have not yet ascended to the Father"

Without the commas it is easy to see that there is no contradiction - but there is a way to insert commas and make it a contradiction

 

[BobRyan]

.Jesus told the thief he would be with him in Paradise, not Heaven

There is only ONE Paradise in the Bible - it is where the throne of God is.

That Paradise is only mentioned in Luke 23, 2 Cor 12 and Rev 2.

NONE of them claim that it is Abraham's bosom or that Abraham is in charge of all the saints in paradise or that Paradise moves around the cosmos etc.

In 2 Cor 12 the location of Paradise is "the third heaven"
In Rev 2 the tree of life is in Paradise
In Rev 22 God's throne is where the tree of life is -- so it too is in Paradise

That is all we know of the location of Paradise from actual scripture. Everything else is speculation and some of it very creative at that.

 

[sandman]

1. There are no commas in the greek texts of the first century -- they were added centuries later ... commas change the meaning of the sentence

Luke 23: The REQUEST:

"Remember me WHEN YOU COME into your kingdom."​

The RESPONSE
"Verily I say to you today you SHALL be with me in Paradise"

Resurrection day - John 20
John 20 "I have not yet ascended to the Father"

Without the commas it is easy to see that there is no contradiction - but there is a way to insert commas and make it a contradiction

Another example of the misuse of commas is in Acts

Act 21:14 And when he (Paul) would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done.

With the commas in this verse…. it makes it look like the will of the Lord is to go to Jerusalem

But what was the will of the Lord?

Act 20:22-24 Paul bound in the spirit

Then 3x God has believers prophesies ….Not to go

Act 21:4

Act 21:9

Act 21:11-14

The will of the Lord was…. don’t go to Jerusalem

I speculate …. because of religious beliefs the interpreters couldn’t make Paul look bad …so they use commas to make it look like….. it was the will of the Lord….. It was NOT.

Remove the commas

And when he (Paul) would not be persuaded we ceased saying the will of the Lord be done.

 

[BPPLEE]

There is only ONE Paradise in the Bible - it is where the throne of God is.

That Paradise is only mentioned in Luke 23, 2 Cor 12 and Rev 2.

NONE of them claim that it is Abraham's bosom or that Abraham is in charge of all the saints in paradise or that Paradise moves around the cosmos etc.

In 2 Cor 12 the location of Paradise is "the third heaven"
In Rev 2 the tree of life is in Paradise
In Rev 22 God's throne is where the tree of life is -- so it too is in Paradise

That is all we know of the location of Paradise from actual scripture. Everything else is speculation and some of it very creative at that.

Well Jesus could have went to Paradise and to preach to the spirits in prison during his 3 days in the grave

 

[Darren Court]

There are no commas in the original Greek. The way it should read is
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.”

The problem with this often quoted and used argument is that it's false!
...
The ONLY way to discern the meaning of this (and for that matter other critical verses) is to look at the evidence in Greek... In other words, not to look at what the Greek says today but to look at how the Greek of the first century was used!

"καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ Παραδείσῳ"
"καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον...." ... are the key words and literally are .."and said to him family say today...."
..Without getting into the nuances, there are no commas in the Greek and so on the face of it the argument that it could mean "Truly I tell you today..." but if that were true to a first century Greek speaker or writer, we would expect to see this phrase used in other Greek writings to support the idea that the word "today" (σήμερον) is a word that would naturally or commonly be used in such an expression or circumstance... and it cannot be found! It not only sounds odd in the English to include the word today in this sentence but it does in the Greek. In both instances we might expect the word to appear at the beginning of the sentence if the writer/speaker was emphasizing it's today that they are speaking rather than today being the subject/object of the sentence. In other words, if the meaning here is that Jesus was speaking today then the word "today" would be at the start of the sentence not in the middle. The evidence from other Greek texts seems to only support that interpretation that the word "today" applies to the object (i.e seeing the thief again).

 

[Darren Court]

We know that Jesus

Jesus said He would be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth following His crucifixion in Matthew 12:40

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth

But Jesus also said to the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" Luke 23:43

And Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

So this seems like a contradiction, doesn't it? Was He in two places at once? The heart of the earth, where Jesus went to preach to the spirits in captivity as per 1 Peter 3:19, is surely not paradise by any stretch of the imagination.

Acts 1:2-3 mentions that He had not yet ascended to heaven, but was with them for 40 days.

...until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen
After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God

John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary not to cling to Him for He had not ascended yet.

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God

Acts 1:9-11 describes precisely when Jesus ascends to heaven.

After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Question: why did Jesus tell the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise "today" when scripture clearly teaches that Jesus descended to the realm of the dead and then resurrected to spend 40 days with His disciples?

Answer: The best answer I can think of is simply that God views time differently than we do, I guess.

Can anyone resolve this seeming contradiction?

I think you are onto the right sort of thinking but stopped short.
..
I could quote all the scriptures but I want to keep this short.
Jesus is God
God has three divine qualities.... omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient
Jesus is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient

I don't believe in the hypostatic union, at least not as mainstream Christianity seems to teach... I believe Jesus put aside His divine qualities in order to become a man with all the limitations of a man. He could have asked the Father to reinstate at any time but would not do so until His purpose, as a man had been completed.

- Irrespective, Jesus the man could not be in two places at the same time
- When He died as a man, He was dead for three days and then rose again, thus fulfilling His prophecy
- Then He finished His work on earth before ascending.

In a sense, at this point in the timeline it might seem like Jesus could not be in heaven and in the ground but we're forgetting something.
Jesus is God and is omnipresent.... meaning He is present everywhere throughout time.

Thus Jesus could be seemingly withdrawn from the omnipresence during His time on earth but His pre and post incarnate states are both omnipresent, meaning He was always present everywhere and at every point in time... meaning He cannot be absent from anywhere at anytime. Thus He was present on the opposite side of the world at the very point He was incarnate on the cross... not because He was in two places at the same time but because He was everywhere at the same time.

This is how we also reconcile God saying "I will never leave nor forsake you" with "But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."

Sorry if that's not explained well, but I hope you get what I mean!

 

[BobRyan]

There is only ONE Paradise in the Bible - it is where the throne of God is.

That Paradise is only mentioned in Luke 23, 2 Cor 12 and Rev 2.

NONE of them claim that it is Abraham's bosom or that Abraham is in charge of all the saints in paradise or that Paradise moves around the cosmos etc.

In 2 Cor 12 the location of Paradise is "the third heaven"
In Rev 2 the tree of life is in Paradise
In Rev 22 God's throne is where the tree of life is -- so it too is in Paradise

That is all we know of the location of Paradise from actual scripture. Everything else is speculation and some of it very creative at that.

Well Jesus could have went to Paradise and to preach to the spirits in prison during his 3 days in the grave

Then according the verses just referenced above - He would have been at the Father's throne - since that is the only place (aside from also calling it "The third heaven" in 2 Cor 12) where the Bible says paradise is located - which means Christ HAD been to the Father by the time of John 20 -- at the exact time when Jesus said He had not. So the texts appear to rule that out.

 

[Guojing]

Then according the verses just referenced above - He would have been at the Father's throne - since that is the only place (aside from also calling it "The third heaven" in 2 Cor 12) where the Bible says paradise is located - which means Christ HAD been to the Father by the time of John 20 -- at the exact time when Jesus said He had not. So the texts appear to rule that out.

If you think every time the word "Paradise" is mentioned in scripture, it must always mean the same thing, what makes the thief on the cross so special as to be able to ascend to the 3rd Heaven that no other member of the remnant could go to before him?

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Did Jesus meant that literally?

 

[BobRyan]

If you think every time the word "Paradise" is mentioned in scripture, it must always mean the same thing, what makes the thief on the cross so special as to be able to ascend to the 3rd Heaven that no other member of the remnant could go to before him?

He says specifically "when you come in your kingdom". So that points to a future event... still future to our day as well.

In John 11 - Martha says "I know my brother will rise again - at the last day".

They all had the same 1 Thess 4:13-18 future event view of it.

And of course - without the commas (since there were no commas in greek texts of the first century) it is also very clear that they were talking about that future event.

 

[Guojing]

He says specifically "when you come in your kingdom". So that points to a future event... still future to our day as well.

In John 11 - Martha says "I know my brother will rise again - at the last day".

They all had the same 1 Thess 4:13-18 future event view of it.

And of course - without the commas (since there were no commas in greek texts of the first century) it is also very clear that they were talking about that future event.

The thief may have said in future tense.

But Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So Jesus did not really meant today, but a future day many years in the future? Is that how you are concluding?

 

[Blade]

Joel 2:32. Yes He told Mary not to touch Him but something must have changed after this when He appeared unto them saying touch me for a spirit does not have flesh and bone as I have. There were many that were raised when He rose praise God glory to Jesus

 

[Paul4JC]

It says He went to the spirits in prison. Abraham's bosom is not a prison?

From the parable we see, Sheol/Hades or the Underworld had two sections paradise and the place of torment. Christ took the thief to "paradise", and then later after his resurrection, it was moved to heaven along with the OT believers.

[Eph 4:8-9 NIV] This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people." 9 (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?

 

[Guojing]

From the parable we see, Sheol/Hades or the Underworld had two sections paradise and the place of torment. Christ took the thief to "paradise", and then later after his resurrection, it was moved to heaven along with the OT believers.

[Eph 4:8-9 NIV] This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people." 9 (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?

Do you mean to say Abraham and the ot saints were in captivity at paradise?

Then it will not be paradise would it?

 

[Paul4JC]

Do you mean to say Abraham and the ot saints were in captivity at paradise?

Then it will not be paradise would it?

Yes, they were captive to death. All the OT saints descended to Sheol/Hades as the suffering and death on the cross, descent, and resurrection had not taken place yet.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, they were captive to death. All the OT saints descended to Sheol/Hades as the suffering and death on the cross, descent, and resurrection had not taken place yet.

So who was holding them captive in Paradise before the cross?

Satan? If so, I assume you believe they were suffering or in some kind of pain every day in Paradise?

 

[Paul4JC]

So who was holding them captive in Paradise before the cross?

Satan? If so, I assume you believe they were suffering or in some kind of pain every day in Paradise?

That's the second time. Is this what you do all day? You can assume whatever you want. Don't push your assumptions on others. Why not try scripture for a change? Otherwise, we have nothing to talk about.

[Psa 49:15 NIV] But God will redeem me from the realm of the dead; he will surely take me to himself.

 

[Guojing]

That's the second time. Is this what you do all day? You can assume whatever you want. Don't push your assumptions on others. Why not try scripture for a change? Otherwise, we have nothing to talk about.

[Psa 49:15 NIV] But God will redeem me from the realm of the dead; he will surely take me to himself.

You were using Ephesians 4:8-9 earlier to explain why Jesus brought those people in Paradise to heaven after the cross correct?

I was actually asking questions about your beliefs, and not making any assumptions at all.

That verse says captives, so I was just clarifying whether you believe Abraham and those OT saints in Paradise were captives before the cross.

 

[Paul4JC]

You were using Ephesians 4:8-9 earlier to explain why Jesus brought those people in Paradise to heaven after the cross correct?

I was actually asking questions about your beliefs, and not making any assumptions at all.

That verse says captives, so I was just clarifying whether you believe Abraham and those OT saints in Paradise were captives before the cross.

Ok, but I already answered that question.

Yes, they were captive to death. All the OT saints descended to Sheol/Hades as the suffering and death on the cross, descent, and resurrection had not taken place yet.

You did assume...

Then it will not be paradise would it?

I assume you believe they were suffering or in some kind of pain every day in Paradise?

 

[Guojing]

Ok, but I already answered that question.







You did assume...

I said if so, actually, if you really read my post, and not just quote my reply out of context.

So if you believe death held them captive in paradise, are they suffering while they were?

Anytime you don't wish to answer, say so, and we can move on

 

[Paul4JC]

Strong's Concordance

paradeisos: a park, a garden, a paradise
Original Word: παράδεισος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: paradeisos
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ad'-i-sos)
Definition: a park, a garden, a paradise

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

1. among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting-ground, park, shady and well-watered, in which wild animals were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters:

2. universally, a garden, pleasure-ground; grove, park:

3. that part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection: Luke 23:43, cf. 16:23

4. an upper region in the heavens:

Strong's Greek: 3857. παράδεισος (paradeisos) -- a park, a garden, a paradise