Why did Jesus need to die?

dogs4thewin said:

because God cannot be around sin and the shedding of blood is the only way to forgive sin. I am not sure why that is.

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I accept your honest answer: "I am not sure why".
But do you know why it has to be Jesus Christ's blood and not my own blood for my own sins?

dogs4thewin said:

but we cannot pay our own sin debt.

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why not?

Alla27 said:

I agree. But this is the question:
Why does Jesus have to pay price for my sins? Why can't I pay price for my own sins?

why was it acceptable?
was it necessary for Christ to be killed in order to pay the price? if "yes" why?

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Because a slave to sin cannot redeem a slave from sin. A person cannot rescue another person to a higher place than the rescuer has himself. Only someone untainted with sin can rescue another from sin.

Anything tainted with sin can only die; nothing can ever be untainted after it has been tainted with sin. The payment for our sin is death of the body, and death of our spirit (being in hell). [The reason why punishment in hell is eternal is because (1) God made everyone to exist forever and (2) there is no longer any way to get rid of the sin nature after our body dies.] That's why God recreates us ("born again") in Christ. He can't untaint our spirits. But he won't do that against someone's will, hence the need to give God control of all of ourselves, including our lives and eternity (which a person can't do if they don't first believe in God).

Jesus paid for our sins with the death of his body (1 Peter 2:24). Jesus didn't have to pay for our sin in the next life, because he is God. God is greater than death (Revelation 20:14). When God and sin meet, sin is destroyed, not God. Death could not hold Jesus "down" (Acts 2:24). We would have to pay for our sins both in this life and the next.

Greg J. said:

Because a slave to sin cannot redeem a slave from sin. A person cannot rescue another person to a higher place than the rescuer has himself. Only someone untainted with sin can rescue another from sin.

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Why can't I save myself? Why can't I pay price myself? Wouldn't it be Justice?

Greg J. said:

Jesus paid for our sins with the death of his body (1 Peter 2:24).

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Peter doesn't say here that Jesus paid for our sins with the death of his body. You say this. Peter says here:
"Jesus bares our sins in his body on the tree".
Would Jesus ever died if nobody decided to kill Him? If "yes" why? If "no" why?

Alla27 said:

Why can't I save myself? Why can't I pay price myself? Wouldn't it be Justice?

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You can; it's called eternity in hell. I gave an answer to your question with detail in my first response.

Alla27 said:

Peter doesn't say here that Jesus paid for our sins with the death of his body. You say this. Peter says here:
"Jesus bares our sins in his body on the tree".

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1 Peter was written to Christians (1 Peter 1:1-2). 1 Peter 2:24 says that the death of Jesus (his body) was so that they might be saved, and states that because of this they are saved.

Alla27 said:

Would Jesus ever died if nobody decided to kill Him? If "yes" why? If "no" why?

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What you wonder about was not a possibility, because that is one of the reasons the Father sent him to earth. It was a part of God's plan to save us. God's Word always accomplishes the purpose for which He sent it (Isaiah 55:11).

Greg J. said:

You can; it's called eternity in hell.

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Yes, I agree. If I sin I have to pay price. Price is death.
Why did Jesus have to die(to be killed) so I can be forgiven? why did He have to shed His blood for me?

Alla27 said:

Yes, I agree. If I sin I have to pay price. Price is death.
Why did Jesus have to die(to be killed) so I can be forgiven? why did He have to shed His blood for me?

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He didn't have to die for you. But God loved/loves you even though you are guilty of sin/rejecting him (Romans 5:8).

So this is complicated, and below I wrote a lot to try to explain it in different ways, but trying to understand all the below at once may not it any less complicated. Try to understand a paragraph before trying to integrate the other paragraphs.

An individual's sin doesn't change God's nature, it changes the sinner's nature, and results in a change in the relationship possible with God. The smallest sin makes a healthy relationship with God impossible because he is pure. The nature of sin is that it pushes God away, even though God is trying to come closer. God never rejects anyone; it is we who reject him and cause the separation. This is the immense power of our free will.

It is correct to view a person's sin as resulting in hell just like gravity causes a dropped bowling ball to hit someone's foot. The harm to the foot is not gravity's fault. The gravity is just part of the way the universe operates. The fault lies with the person who dropped it. Because God is Lord of all and in oversees everything, he takes responsibility for punishing people in hell, because the way our universe operates was ultimately from him, and he chooses to operate it in accordance with his nature.

However, one should view God's decision to punish someone in hell like the operation of gravity, not like a decision made by the person who decided to drop something to smash your foot, which is only the result of the sinner's will (and actually contrary to what God wanted). Thinking of God as the one that chooses to drop the heavy object on you is something Satan very much wants everyone to believe. But the dropper is the sinner, not God. God is responsible for the gravity which does not discriminate between good or evil, right or wrong.

So the Judge and Jury loved you, but they still had to sentence you to death, because that was their duty (justice). God is pure good. He forgives everyone from his heart, because that is his nature (1 John 4:8, 16), but he can't choose to stop being the police and jailer, because that would smudge the distinction between good and evil / right and wrong, and that would smudge the distinction between what God is like and what he is not like. But that is impossible, because God's moral condition can not (does not) change (Malachi 3:5-6).

You could say that God cannot forgive for no reason, because that would corrupt himself—which he will never allow. As I wrote before, there's two kinds of forgiveness involved here. In this post, the two kinds are (1) kind of like how he "feels" about you—we are forgiven in his heart and are commanded to forgive one another like him. This has many reasons, but one is simply that it helps us to have a heart that is more like God's perfect and forgiving nature. This is not really a moral forgiveness; it is a relational forgiveness (which has serious meaning if one of the persons is God). But the other kind of forgiveness, (2) is moral forgiveness like you see in a criminal's debt to society. The criminal's debt to society can't just disappear. The way it disappears is for the criminal to pay his debt to society—whatever he owes. doubtingmerle is trying to apply his concept of forgiveness [which is God's type (1) forgiveness] to circumstances that require type (2) forgiveness. It's like saying the judge should set everyone free because he loves them all, but that doesn't address the (2)-type debt at all.

The consequences of good and sinful actions that God ordains is precisely what defines the difference between right and wrong for us. He cannot change that (2 Timothy 2:13). It would be a violation of who he is in his perfect purity.

Alla27 said:

good question. Why can't men save themselves?

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We are not perfect.
For God is perfect.
We are not good.
God is good.
We are not just.
God is just.
We are not righteous.
God is righteous.
We are rebellious.
God is good and still has mercy on us.
We are sinful.
God has made a way to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
There is nothing we can do, to save ourselves or pay the fine for
transgressing God's laws.
Jesus did, He said "It is Finished"
We cannot conquer death.
Jesus did, He said "It is Finished"
We cannot save anyone.
Jesus can!
And thus, saving us from a wrathful judgment from God.
So, in conclusion.
We are sinful, prideful, unrighteous, not good and sinners.
We can in know way or in anyway, save ourselves. Not by works
Not by being nice all the time, Not by any means.
Through Christ Crucified are we saved.

doubtingmerle said:

But why did salvation require a dead body? Why cannot he forgive without first demanding a dead body?

I can forgive without demanding a dead body. Why cannot God?

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To answer this, we need to step back a bit.

1. In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth. We all know this...yeah some of you are confused and don't believe it. That's for another thread.
2. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shined in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

We should all know this also. Christ who is God created everything....How did he create it?

Genesis 1:4 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.


Genesis 1:10 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.


Genesis 1:12 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


Genesis 1:18 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.


Genesis 1:21 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


Genesis 1:25 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

and then, the only scripture that says this. on the sixth day

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Other words, perfect. Everything was exactly as God wanted it to be. For mankind, for animals, plants, everything. It was perfect.

There was only one rule for Adam and Eve. Which God told Adam

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Well, they did eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They sinned. It wasn't the fruit that made them sin, nor Satan, in the form of a snake that did it. It was disobeying God's law. Sin is the transgression of God's law.
So, God punished them. We should all know, but in case you don't, read Genesis 3:17-19.

He also admonishes Satan and curses the snake. But the key scripture is what will happen against Satan in the future.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This is a shadow or foreshadowing of Christ.

It was because of sin, that bloodletting had to be. The first sacrifice was when God created the clothing for Adam and eve. A creation of God's had to be slain, to cover the shame and nakedness of both Adam and Eve. God had to do it. Because of His mercy...he didn't kill Adam and Eve physically. But the sin in their hearts now separated them from God, and we are dead in Sin.
Adam and Eve, never paid the price for their sin. Yeah, they were kicked out of Paradise, but that wasn't death. Someone had to pay the price for our sins and the price for sin is death.
God knew this, but He also knew that the world would have to have this mercy, not just Adam and Eve. He knew that sin would be abound. So He had to have is mercy abound even more.
Without the death of Christ, we wouldn't have salvation, we have today. We would have to pay the price for our sins, ourselves. We would have to live a perfect righteous and Holy life. A life completely without sin, not even mistakes, or those hidden sins. We would have to sacrifice everything to God, if not for the death of Christ. And the shedding of His blood to cleanse us of our unrighteousness.
God made it so, that we wouldn't have to, through Christ Crucified. He stood in our place, He nailed our sins to the cross, He did it and said "It is Finished"
I for one and extremely grateful and thankful for Christ crucified. I know I could die for friends, I've been a firefighter and in the Army. I understand, and I'm sure many of you do to, the concept of placing my life in harms way for others. I would do it now more for my friends, especially if it were to lead them to Christ. Thankfully though, Christ has already done that. It's not necessary for me to do so. To Die is gain, to live is Christ.
I get that, why God sent His son and died on that cross for us. Not because He wanted to be popular...he could've called down a legion of Angels to protect Him...he didn't...He was humble, loving and caring. He did this so that we might be saved. He laid His life down for us. Could you? Would you lay down your life for the WHOLE world? Not just for your handful of friends or a few neighbors. But for everyone, even those that killed you, could you do that?
He had to, even as we are sinners and He loved us enough to do this.

doubtingmerle said:

We are told that Jesus died for our sins, because otherwise God could not forgive us. That makes no sense to me. If God wanted to forgive, why doesn't he just forgive? Why does he need the death of his son in order to forgive us?

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It's been explained yo you numerous times.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The price you will pay is death for your sins.
Christ died on the cross and paid the wage for me....in my place.

Jesus died for our sins.

Alla27 said:

Why can't I save myself? Why can't I pay price myself? Wouldn't it be Justice?

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What would you suggest you could do to pay for your sins?
Do you have scripture to support your suggestions?

-57 said:

What would you suggest you could do to pay for your sins?
Do you have scripture to support your suggestions?

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I am not arguing with you, guys. I believe that I can not save myself. I believe that it was important that Father would send His Son who would be our Savior. I know why without Savior Father can not forgive us.
But I want to know if you know "why". So far you did not show me you know the answer.
So, we are sinners. No sinner can enter Father 's Kingdom.
God is Mercy and God is Justice. What is Justice(price) for any sin? The answer is death. It is not only physical death but it is also spiritual death. What is spiritual death? It is SEPARATION from God's presence.
So, if God forgives me He will show Mercy but He will rob Justice. If God punishes me He will do Justice but He will rob Mercy. That is why we need Savior.
But how does it work? How does INFINITE ATONEMENT satisfy both Mercy and Justice? Do you know? That is all I want to know from you.

One more time, we have to remember one important thing that God is NOT only Justice and He is NOT only Mercy. He is both.
If God punishes atheists for all their sins and sends them to hell for ever and ever(by the way the Bible doesn't have this claim that someone will be in hell forever) then God will rob Mercy and this people will never know what God's Mercy is.
If God forgives them for their sins then God will rob Justice. This people will never know that God is Just and how He is just.
The Atonement is the answer. But how? Do you know?

Alla27 said:

I am not arguing with you, guys. I believe that I can not save myself. I believe that it was important that Father would send His Son who would be our Savior. I know why without Savior Father can not forgive us.
But I want to know if you know "why". So far you did not show me you know the answer.
So, we are sinners. No sinner can enter Father 's Kingdom.
God is Mercy and God is Justice. What is Justice(price) for any sin? The answer is death. It is not only physical death but it is also spiritual death. What is spiritual death? It is SEPARATION from God's presence.
So, if God forgives me He will show Mercy but He will rob Justice. If God punishes me He will do Justice but He will rob Mercy. That is why we need Savior.
But how does it work? How does INFINITE ATONEMENT satisfy both Mercy and Justice? Do you know? That is all I want to know from you.

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How is God robbing justice when Jesus took on your penalty as a substitutional sacrifice? Justice was met through Jesus.

Alla27 said:

One more time, we have to remember one important thing that God is NOT only Justice and He is NOT only Mercy. He is both.
If God punishes atheists for all their sins and sends them to hell for ever and ever(by the way the Bible doesn't have this claim that someone will be in hell forever) then God will rob Mercy and this people will never know what God's Mercy is.
If God forgives them for their sins then God will rob Justice. This people will never know that God is Just and how He is just.
The Atonement is the answer. But how? Do you know?

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You posted "(by the way the Bible doesn't have this claim that someone will be in hell forever)"

What do you do with the following verse?

1 Thess 1:8 in blazing fire. He will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might

-57 said:

How is God robbing justice when Jesus took on your penalty as a substitutional sacrifice? Justice was met through Jesus.

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I agree. I want you to tell how it works. Many people do not understand.
I sinned, I will die(pay price). It is Justice. So, why does Jesus have to pay for my sins if I will pay for them anyway by dying?

-57 said:

You posted "(by the way the Bible doesn't have this claim that someone will be in hell forever)"

What do you do with the following verse?

1 Thess 1:8 in blazing fire. He will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might

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I will do nothing with this verse but I will ask you a question: where does it say: they will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction "for ever and ever"?

dogs4thewin said:

because God cannot be around sin

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Two small problems with that statement:

1. God is everywhere.
2. Jesus.

and the shedding of blood is the only way to forgive sin. I am not sure why that is.

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In the Old Testament God was pretty explicit that it is contrition that matters, and God freely forgave without sacrifices.

These ideas seem to exist primarily as modern ad hoc statements in order to try and argue for and defend Penal Substitution Theory.

-CryptoLutheran