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Why did Jesus Leave?

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amariselle

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No it's not.

It can be done lazily, yes. But it can also be done cleverly, as the example I provided earlier illustrates. Does the person who ridiculed Trump's immigration policy look ridiculous? I don't think he does. But he has certainly made a point about that policy - it's ridiculous.

Ridicule can be a form of honest criticism. When exposing ridiculous ideas, it can be one of the most effective forms of criticism.

Ridicule is NOT honest criticism. It does not encourage dialogue, but instead incites mockery, contempt and derision.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

So those passages I cited are not examples of ridicule and, more specifically, examples of ridiculing a person or group?

No, you need to understand the actual context. Have the verses been used to ridicule? Absolutely, but they are not in and of themselves ridiculing.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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So, when you ridicule someone's ideas or beliefs, you don't think that is ridiculing them?
No.
I disagree. For many their beliefs (their faith) is everything to them, it's their identity. So, when you ridicule those beliefs you are ridiculing them as a person.

Beliefs and ideas can be very precious to people, and making a mockery of such things can do untold hurt and damage. This is why we need to be very careful with how we treat one another.
That someone's ideas are cherished does not place those ideas beyond criticism, even if that criticism is ridicule. You are mistaking ridicule of a person, of who they are, for ridicule of what they think, their ideas.
As I said, ridicule is not civil and it isn't honest criticism either. Ridicule is not something that allows for dialogue or change, ridicule is mockery and contempt, benefits no one. (Including the person doing the ridiculing)
On the contrary, I've shown you that it can be beneficial, using the example above. The ridicule in that example serves to expose the ridiculousness of Trump's policy in a memorable way. It's short, clever, and effective in a way that simply saying "That's ridiculous" is not.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Ridicule is NOT honest criticism. It does not encourage dialogue, but instead incites mockery, contempt and derision.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
It can also encourage further reflection, as the tweet above shows. Someone inclined to agree with Trump's policy might see it as somewhat ridiculous having read that tweet. Or it might encourage them to respond and defend Trump, thereby entering into a dialogue. Ridicule can start conversations, rather than bringing them to an end.
No, you need to understand the actual context. Have the verses been used to ridicule? Absolutely, but they are not in and of themselves ridiculing.
How are they not ridiculing? It seems very clear that those verses are expressing contempt for nonbelievers, calling them lawless fools with darkened hearts.
 
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devolved

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Ridicule is NOT honest criticism. It does not encourage dialogue, but instead incites mockery, contempt and derision.

So... when I read things like

Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

... it's not a form of ridiculing?

I can provide much less subtle examples if you'd like.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Try that with learning a new language, or getting a degree, or a job.
What has the burden of proof to do with those?
"Burden of proof" - that's a good one!
Are you saying you don't agree with the principle? I can see why it's tempting, but without it philosophical argument would be reduced to a series of unsupported assertions.
 
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amariselle

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If you truly don't think so, I humbly suggest that you be very careful with your comments and how they are addressed.

Needless to say, I disagree with you.

That someone's ideas are cherished does not place those ideas beyond criticism, even if that criticism is ridicule. You are mistaking ridicule of a person, of who they are, for ridicule of what they think, their ideas.

And yet, what started this discussion were very specific condescending comments, comments directed not only at a person's ideas or beliefs, comments you agreed with. To a Christian their beliefs are very much "who they are." Sometimes the two cannot be so neatly separated as you assume. As such, to play around with ridicule could potentially do untold damage.

And no, honest criticism is NOT the same as ridicule. As I said, we will have to agree to disagree here.

On the contrary, I've shown you that it can be beneficial, using the example above. The ridicule in that example serves to expose the ridiculousness of Trump's policy in a memorable way. It's short, clever, and effective in a way that simply saying "That's ridiculous" is not.

Not everyone finds it "effective" and clever." Just because you do, doesn't mean everyone will agree. When addressing someone else or their beliefs, we need to be very careful. Ridicule is not careful. It's intentional derision and mockery.
 
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amariselle

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It can also encourage further reflection, as the tweet above shows. Someone inclined to agree with Trump's policy might see it as somewhat ridiculous having read that tweet. Or it might encourage them to respond and defend Trump, thereby entering into a dialogue. Ridicule can start conversations, rather than bringing them to an end.

Ridicule does not encourage conversation. Ridicule is mockery and insult, and it is not constructive in any way. If someone truly wants to encourage honest conversation and reflection, there are far better ways to go about it.

How are they not ridiculing? It seems very clear that those verses are expressing contempt for nonbelievers, calling them lawless fools with darkened hearts.

Again, read the context. To be entirely clear on what those verses are saying, one must understand the holiness of God and what it means to reject Him.
 
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amariselle

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So... when I read things like

Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

... it's not a form of ridiculing?

I can provide much less subtle examples if you'd like.

No, the context must be properly understood, and the holiness and righteousness of God (not man) must be understood.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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... ridiculing a person's beliefs is ridiculing the person who holds those beliefs...
There's a difference for ridiculing a belief and ridiculing the person for holding that belief. For example, I find the idea of believing in Scientology ridiculous, but I have sympathy for many believers in it - they're not ridiculous because they have ridiculous beliefs, and they don't deserve ridicule - but the beliefs do; I think ridicule is an effective means of countering dangerous or damaging beliefs.

Using ridicule in philosophical argument isn't uncommon, but isn't particularly productive - as we've seen in this thread.
 
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amariselle

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There's a difference for ridiculing a belief and ridiculing the person for holding that belief. For example, I find the idea of believing in Scientology ridiculous, but I have sympathy for many believers in it - they're not ridiculous because they have ridiculous beliefs, and they don't deserve ridicule - but the beliefs do; I think ridicule is an effective means of countering dangerous or damaging beliefs.

Stating that certain beliefs are "ridiculous" and why you think so is one thing. Engaging in open and continued ridicule of a person's beliefs or of them personally, is another. Honest criticism is far better. Ridicule is not constructive, it is condescending and mocking by nature.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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And yet, what started this discussion were very specific condescending comments, comments directed not only at a person's ideas or beliefs, comments you agreed with. To a Christian their beliefs are very much "who they are." Sometimes the two cannot be so neatly separated as you assume. As such, to play around with ridicule could potentially do untold damage.

And no, honest criticism is NOT the same as ridicule. As I said, we will have to agree to disagree here.
Ridiculing a person's ideas, particularly their bad ideas, is not the same as ridiculing the person, or who they are. In saying that someone's ideas about evolution, for example, are ridiculous, I am not thereby deriding who they are as a person. Your mistake is to conflate the two, such that no criticism of someone's ideas can ever be anything other than a criticism of them as a person. If that is truly the case, then this entire discussion doesn't merely criticise the claims you've made in this thread, but it also criticises you on a personal level. If that's your approach to these discussions, then you'll find yourself offended very easily because every attack on your ideas is immediately misconstrued as a personal attack.
 
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devolved

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No, the context must be properly understood, and the holiness and righteousness of God (not man) must be understood.

1) Why would context matter for people who don't accept the belief and view such talk as unwarranted criticism that's a bit harsh?

2) Why would you insist in context in this case, but dismiss contex of the criticism that Archeopterix provides... as not directed at you personally?

It seems like you are working with a double standard in this case.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Ridicule does not encourage conversation. Ridicule is mockery and insult, and it is not constructive in any way. If someone truly wants to encourage honest conversation and reflection, there are far better ways to go about it.
And ridicule is one of those ways. I never suggested that it is the only way, nor even that it should be the predominant way. But it is one way of stimulating conversation and encouraging reflection. But it needs to be done well and should address the claims being made rather than focusing on the person making those claims.
Again, read the context. To be entirely clear on what those verses are saying, one must understand the holiness of God and what it means to reject Him.
You'll need to elaborate further. How does the context change the ridiculing nature of those verses?
 
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devolved

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Stating that certain beliefs are "ridiculous" and why you think so is one thing. Engaging in open and continued ridicule of a person's beliefs or of them personally, is another. Honest criticism is far better. Ridicule is not constructive, it is condescending and mocking by nature.


Agreed. The only problem is that ridiculing can be a rather subjective interpretation of people who feel like they are ridiculed when they are actually receiving criticism.
 
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amariselle

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Ridiculing a person's ideas, particularly their bad ideas, is not the same as ridiculing the person, or who they are. In saying that someone's ideas about evolution, for example, are ridiculous, I am not thereby deriding who they are as a person. Your mistake is to conflate the two, such that no criticism of someone's ideas can ever be anything other than a criticism of them as a person. If that is truly the case, then this entire discussion doesn't merely criticise the claims you've made in this thread, but it also criticises you on a personal level. If that's your approach to these discussions, then you'll find yourself offended very easily because every attack on your ideas is immediately misconstrued as a personal attack.

I am not talking about simply saying you find someone's ideas "ridiculous" and then explaining why you think that way. I am talking about the actual practice of ridicule.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Stating that certain beliefs are "ridiculous" and why you think so is one thing. Engaging in open and continued ridicule of a person's beliefs or of them personally, is another. Honest criticism is far better. Ridicule is not constructive, it is condescending and mocking by nature.
Some ideas are deserving of ridicule, so we ridicule them, rather simply saying "I think that's ridiculous." Ridicule is not necessarily incompatible with honest criticism; it depends on how the ridicule is exercised, which is why it does have a place in civil discourse.
 
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amariselle

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Agreed. The only problem is that ridiculing can be a rather subjective interpretation of people who feel like they are ridiculed when they are actually receiving criticism.

Yes, I understand, which is why we must deal graciously with one another and be sure that the person we are dialoguing with understands our criticisms and objections.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I am not talking about simply saying you find someone's ideas "ridiculous" and then explaining why you think that way. I am talking about the actual practice of ridicule.
Yes, I have ridiculed some ideas about evolution, particularly the caricatures of creationists. I don't apologise for that, because their ideas were deserving of ridicule. As I said before, and which you ignored: Your mistake is to conflate the two, such that no criticism of someone's ideas can ever be anything other than a criticism of them as a person. If that is truly the case, then this entire discussion doesn't merely criticise the claims you've made in this thread, but it also criticises you on a personal level. If that's your approach to these discussions, then you'll find yourself offended very easily because every attack on your ideas is immediately misconstrued as a personal attack.
 
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amariselle

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Some ideas are deserving of ridicule, so we ridicule them, rather simply saying "I think that's ridiculous." Ridicule is not necessarily incompatible with honest criticism; it depends on how the ridicule is exercised, which is why it does have a place in civil discourse.

As I said, we will need to agree to disagree.
 
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amariselle

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Yes, I have ridiculed some ideas about evolution, particularly the caricatures of creationists. I don't apologise for that, because their ideas were deserving of ridicule. As I said before, and which you ignored: Your mistake is to conflate the two, such that no criticism of someone's ideas can ever be anything other than a criticism of them as a person. If that is truly the case, then this entire discussion doesn't merely criticise the claims you've made in this thread, but it also criticises you on a personal level. If that's your approach to these discussions, then you'll find yourself offended very easily because every attack on your ideas is immediately misconstrued as a personal attack.

There is no need to repeat yourself. I did not "ignore" what you said, I responded and said I don't agree with you, and why.

Again, we must agree to disagree. Clearly we don't see ridicule the same way, you think it's helpful and I do not. That's fine.
 
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