Why did he do it?

[CalvinOwen]

If an old timer can jump in here for a moment... I think at least one problem with your position here CO is that you are making God the cause of Adam's sin. It seems to me that for you that by God electing Adam to sin that God caused Adam to sin. This is so because God made it so Adam had no choice whether he could sin or not.

Again, the criticisim is over the principle that because God elects someone then, "Who resists His will?" This criticism dates back to the Apostle Paul:

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? Romans 9:19-21

I think a right understanding of election answers the question of this thread:

"Why did he do it?"

The answer is simple, because God elected him to do it. But you will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

 

[Reformationist]

I'm glad to hear that, so you do believe God elected Adam to sin and fall before he was created?

Of course. God decrees whatsoever comes to pass. You know that.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

If an old timer can jump in here for a moment... I think at least one problem with your position here CO is that you are making God the cause of Adam's sin. It seems to me that for you that by God electing Adam to sin that God caused Adam to sin. This is so because God made it so Adam had no choice whether he could sin or not. Remember that Adam is not like the rest of us. As Reformanist has rightly stated he lived pre-fall. (part of his life) So he had no Sin or nor one else that was a represenative for all of humanity before himself. He was that represenative. So if God created Adam with a sin nature or with a propensity to sin without a reason then God is the cause of Adam's sin and he should be held responsible for it.

However I do not believe that this occurred. God gave Adam a choice. He could of not sinned but instead he chose to sin. Now it is true that God knew that he would sin and it in his eternal and sovereign plan that Adam did sin but I do not believe that God forced Adam to sin. So one can say that God did not elect Adam towards salvation or that he elected him to damnation but that in no way means that God made Adam sin.

This is true also for you and me and everyone else post fall. God did not make Pharoah sin in anyway. He just chose to withold his grace (part) to him. So Pharoah did what his human nature lead him to do and that was sin. God used Pharoah and his own sin nature to do his (God's) own will. But again God in no way made it so pharoah had to sin. Adam sinned and thus we all have a sin nature.

So God does not make us sin. Mankind has made it so that we sin. It was in God's plan that we did sin and God put Adam in the garden knowing that he would sin and knowing that how his creation was he would sin. But he did not make it so Adam had no other choice but to sin.

I do believe in a more deterministic God than many people do but I think your view of God rules out any free choice that any human including Adam has everhad the ability to have and thus man cannot be held responsible for his own actions.

I completely agree Blackhawk. This is very much what I've been trying to say.

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Again, the criticisim is over the principle that because God elects someone then, "Who resists His will?" This criticism dates back to the Apostle Paul:

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? Romans 9:19-21

I think a right understanding of election answers the question of this thread:

"Why did he do it?"

The answer is simple, because God elected him to do it. But you will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

CO, it's not an issue of God being sovereign over His creation. No one is questioning that. It's not a question of the events if the Fall coming to pass exactly as God had ordained. No one is questioning that either. It's not an issue of whether Adam sinned according to God's eternal and immutable will. Of course he did. No one is denying that. Where your view and mine start to but heads is when you say Adam sinned because God elected him to do it. The Bible never purports any such thing and your doing so makes God the causal agent for Adam's sin.

You see, I think I actually already know the answer to my own question though it seems rather pointless to say so because all my answer does is create another question. The reason Adam chose to disobey God's direct command to refrain from eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is simply because he wanted to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. As I said, my answer only creates another question, that being, why did Adam want to disobey God. Now, I can see clearly how this may segue into a bunch of posts about the temptation of the serpent. As true as it may be that the serpent tempted Eve and Eve, in turn, tempted Adam, it still doesn't explain anything. Adam was not created with an inherent desire to disobey God so any temptation to do so should have been fruitless. Sin proceeds from the heart. If the heart is not sinful then it will not desire sin, even if tempted. At least that's the way it seems to me.

Anyone feel like addressing why Adam may have desired to disobey God or whether that is even a plausible submission?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Asaph]

Perhaps Adam didn't want Eve having dominion over him in that after she ate of the tree she would have a knowledge that he didn't. I other words, Adam had a prideful desire from observing what he observed.

Maybe?

Asaph

 

[Reformationist]

Perhaps Adam didn't want Eve having dominion over him in that after she ate of the tree she would have a knowledge that he didn't. I other words, Adam had a prideful desire from observing what he observed.

Maybe?

Asaph

Hmmmm...maybe. Never really thought about it that way. Thanks for tossing that out there.

God bless

 

[CalvinOwen]

CO, it's not an issue of God being sovereign over His creation. No one is questioning that. It's not a question of the events if the Fall coming to pass exactly as God had ordained. No one is questioning that either. It's not an issue of whether Adam sinned according to God's eternal and immutable will. Of course he did. No one is denying that. Where your view and mine start to but heads is when you say Adam sinned because God elected him to do it.

Of course Adam sinned because God elected him to, but the sin and fault lies with Adam. What you are missing Reforma in your question "Why did he do it?," is that because God elected Adam to fall, He did not create Adam perfect so as never to fall. He created Adam sinless and with the power not to sin, knowing full well that this was not enough. Adam did not have the power to resist sin like God's Son Who was the only Man who could resist sin perfectly and receive all the glory.