Why did God say He created evil?

[LinaBellus]

And what work would that be for the Creator?

Romans 8:29-31 'For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified... If God be for us, who can be against us?'

 

[geiroffenberg]

Isaiah 45:7 says: 'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.'
Yet Genesis 1:31 teaches that 'God saw every thing that he made, and, behold, it was very good.' I think God declared that everything he made was perfect. So how can He say that He created evil? I thought evil was not created, that it's not a creature, but the lack of God's goodness in the world.
Romans 5:12: 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.' Who gets the blame for evil? If sin entered by man, then what does 'evil' refer to in Isaiah 45:7?

i dont think its so hard to understand and i dont think theres a contradiction between the verses you give, but they explain the thing. the context in isiah is that god says he is the only god, no other besides him the creator, so it follows that there is no other source for anything. Of course darkness is the lack of light, and so evil is the lack of good as you say, but god is not backing off from the fact that it is from him that these options are available. We can have darkened minds and by implication be evil, this option is part of creation, so in this way this comes from him and he owns that fact. I dont think we then can say that god literally FORMED evil imo. Its obvious troughout scripture that gods will si for only goodness and perfection and that we ahve the option to obtain this.

 

[LinaBellus]

And regarding Noah, "perfect in his generation" is different depending on the translation. In the New International version it says that "Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time". That doesn't mean that Noah was perfect, far from it, it just means he didn't do anything really bad that he could be blamed for and he tried to be a good person. Far cry from "perfect".

I know what it means, that's why I mentioned it.

It means that Noah was perfect in his generation - ie there were none as good as him in his generations (Footnotes: JPS 1917). It may well be a simple comparative statement.

Exactly.
In Genesis 1, there was no need to use the word 'perfect', because everything God created was good, and there was no evil to compare the world with.

 

[Heber Book List]

Romans 8:29-31 'For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified... If God be for us, who can be against us?'

What about 'creating' in Isaiah 65:17-18 and Jeremiah 31:22? G_d is constantly working as affirmed in many ways as he works in us to achieve his will / desires for the world. He is busy!

 

[Dave-W]

Romans 8:29-31 'For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified... If God be for us, who can be against us?'

Yeah - and that predestination was done BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, so that was all before Genesis 1.

What work was the Father doing in the first century?

 

[SkyWriting]

Isaiah 45:7 says: 'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.'
Yet Genesis 1:31 teaches that 'God saw every thing that he made, and, behold, it was very good.' I think God declared that everything he made was perfect. So how can He say that He created evil? I thought evil was not created, that it's not a creature, but the lack of God's goodness in the world.

It was originally perfect. But to avoid a world
of puppet slaves, God prefers voluntary love
over enslaved Love.

So to allow for voluntary Love God allows for
choice between good and evil.

On this issue, God is pro-choice.

 

[Heber Book List]

Yeah - and that predestination was done BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, so that was all before Genesis 1.

What work was the Father doing in the first century?

Gardening, fishing and animal husbandry? Oh, and forward planning - a Book of Law to be written, an Ark to be designed, and an extended hiking season for His people in Egypt, including crossing some deep water without a boat or paddle to hand? He was really great at logistics (and still is!).

Lol!

 

[LinaBellus]

What about 'creating' in Isaiah 65:17-18 and Jeremiah 31:22? G_d is constantly working as affirmed in many ways as he works in us to achieve his will / desires for the world. He is busy!

I was making the same point. However, the creation described in Isaiah 65:17 concerns future events, but God is still working, indeed.

I think the topic has been derailed, and since I got my question answered, I would like to close the subject.
Thank you all for your comments, and please, 'let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: and be ye kind one to another', even if you disagree.

Blessings.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

How do we know that God and everything he does is "perfect"? I don't recall if ever saying in the Bible that God said "I am perfect", and it never said his creation was perfect—I recall him more times saying that he is a jealous God, and it was other people, centuries after the Old Testament, who said "God is love".

And regarding Noah, "perfect in his generation" is different depending on the translation. In the New International version it says that "Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time". That doesn't mean that Noah was perfect, far from it, it just means he didn't do anything really bad that he could be blamed for and he tried to be a good person. Far cry from "perfect".

Whether or not God is perfect wouldn't really depend upon a statement from the Bible to make it the actual case either way. If God is perfect, then He is perfect, but it's not something we can "measure." Do you know anyone who has a perfect ruler we can use?

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Greg J.]

Isaiah 45:7 says: 'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.'
Yet Genesis 1:31 teaches that 'God saw every thing that he made, and, behold, it was very good.' I think God declared that everything he made was perfect. So how can He say that He created evil? I thought evil was not created, that it's not a creature, but the lack of God's goodness in the world.
Romans 5:12: 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.' Who gets the blame for evil? If sin entered by man, then what does 'evil' refer to in Isaiah 45:7?

As you imply and say in your second post, everything God does is of maximum possible quality. He is perfect, all his ways are perfect, and everything he does is perfect, so there is never any reason for God to undo anything he finished. (But that's different than fixing something of his that we damaged or destroyed.)

God created Adam and Eve, then Adam and Eve (and God) created Cain, and Cain committed murder. Who shares moral fault for the murder? God teaches that it is just Cain (Ezekiel 18:20, 18:4).

If God has not prompted Satan in the book of Job, would Satan have been given the greater access to Job that God gave him? —which resulted in Satan murdering Job's family? Later Job queries, shall we not accept adversity as well as good from the Lord? Did God do evil by granting Satan this added access? Based on knowing God's nature, definitely not.

We lack enough details to understand why God behaved as he did at the beginning of Job. Perhaps a legion of demons was about to start a war against Job and kill all his brothers and sisters and also everyone in the whole region and burn the land. All Job's brothers and sisters that Satan killed were guilty of sin, and based on other Biblical narratives, it seems probable that they were actually swimming in sin. i.e., God didn't create conditions for murder, he allowed sin to have its way with them.

The starting point for knowing God in this life is to recognize that we all have earned and deserve eternal condemnation for our sin. (Since God does not hold us responsible for our parent's sins, the reason we are all born condemned is because we inherit our father's spiritual nature, which is not connected to God as was the case when God created Adam.)

If God chooses to just let us slide our way into hell, he has done nothing wrong. It is we who have chosen to do evil and have invoked the need for justice. The reality is that what is moral is that God punish all humans. All humans and the earth itself are tainted with sin.

Sin is everywhere and in everything. But God does not ignore us because we are tainted from sin. He deals with reality as it is. He loves us and is involved in the lives of people. It should not be surprising if we see him rearranging events so that the effects of sin are changed (Isaiah 43:4, Proverbs 13:22). In this sense God creates evil where there was none before from our perspective. But no sin ever originated with God. Our sin has created an environment where it is not possible for pure good to have its way in anything. It's not surprising that we see situations where God seems to have done evil. Thinking in terms of the cause-effect relationship, God is not the original cause of any sin or evil, but he is the effect, and sometimes takes responsibility for that as sovereign Lord of all who operates the (physical and spiritual) universe.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Isaiah 45:7 says: 'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.'
Yet Genesis 1:31 teaches that 'God saw every thing that he made, and, behold, it was very good.' I think God declared that everything he made was perfect. So how can He say that He created evil? I thought evil was not created, that it's not a creature, but the lack of God's goodness in the world.
Romans 5:12: 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.' Who gets the blame for evil? If sin entered by man, then what does 'evil' refer to in Isaiah 45:7?

Hi Lina,

As some others have already mentioned, the original Hebrew indicates a meaning in Isaiah 45:7 more along the lines of "calamity."

And since we see a parallel structure with God contrasting His Hand in Light and Darkness, Peace and Calamity, I think this is Jewish idiom referring back to the Blessing and Curse provision found in the Law of Moses, in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. It is a prophetic reminder to the Jewish people, via the prophet Isaiah, that all the people of Israel should heed the prophetic pronouncement of God.

So, God is Holy, God is Good, and we His people must do what we should.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[CrystalDragon]

Go

As you imply and say in your second post, everything God does is of maximum possible quality. He is perfect, all his ways are perfect, and everything he does is perfect, so there is never any reason for God to undo anything he finished. (But that's different than fixing something of his that we damaged or destroyed.)

God created Adam and Eve, then Adam and Eve (and God) created Cain, and Cain committed murder. Who shares moral fault for the murder? God teaches that it is just Cain (Ezekiel 18:20, 18:4).

If God has not prompted Satan in the book of Job, would Satan have been given the greater access to Job that God gave him? —which resulted in Satan murdering Job's family? Later Job queries, shall we not accept adversity as well as good from the Lord? Did God do evil by granting Satan this added access? Based on knowing God's nature, definitely not.

We lack enough details to understand why God behaved as he did at the beginning of Job. Perhaps a legion of demons was about to start a war against Job and kill all his brothers and sisters and also everyone in the whole region and burn the land. All Job's brothers and sisters that Satan killed were guilty of sin, and based on other Biblical narratives, it seems probable that they were actually swimming in sin. i.e., God didn't create conditions for murder, he allowed sin to have its way with them.

The starting point for knowing God in this life is to recognize that we all have earned and deserve eternal condemnation for our sin. (Since God does not hold us responsible for our parent's sins, the reason we are all born condemned is because we inherit our father's spiritual nature, which is not connected to God as was the case when God created Adam.)

If God chooses to just let us slide our way into hell, he has done nothing wrong. It is we who have chosen to do evil and have invoked the need for justice. The reality is that what is moral is that God punish all humans. All humans and the earth itself are tainted with sin.

Sin is everywhere and in everything. But God does not ignore us because we are tainted from sin. He deals with reality as it is. He loves us and is involved in the lives of people. It should not be surprising if we see him rearranging events so that the effects of sin are changed (Isaiah 43:4, Proverbs 13:22). In this sense God creates evil where there was none before from our perspective. But no sin ever originated with God. Our sin has created an environment where it is not possible for pure good to have its way in anything. It's not surprising that we see situations where God seems to have done evil. Thinking in terms of the cause-effect relationship, God is not the original cause of any sin or evil, but he is the effect, and sometimes takes responsibility for that as sovereign Lord of all who operates the (physical and spiritual) universe.

d did regret making humanity and that's why he sent the flood. If his plan was perfect, a perfect being by definition can feel no regret because if they had something else to learn, they would not be perfect.

 

[Greg J.]

If you have a child who becomes the next Hitler, is it possible you would regret having that child?

 

[Aryeh]

Isaiah 45:7 says: 'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.'
Yet Genesis 1:31 teaches that 'God saw every thing that he made, and, behold, it was very good.' I think God declared that everything he made was perfect. So how can He say that He created evil? I thought evil was not created, that it's not a creature, but the lack of God's goodness in the world.
Romans 5:12: 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.' Who gets the blame for evil? If sin entered by man, then what does 'evil' refer to in Isaiah 45:7?

That word in Isaiah 45:7 is "ra," which means "adversity, affliction, calamity, displeasure, distress..."

Evil is best translated as "resha" in Hebrew, which means "evil, wickedness, wrongdoing." God doesn't "create" this, because it is not a "creation" - rather a transformation of what is natural (good.)

But, He isn't surprised by evil, nor is He impotent to deal with it. He monitors and arbritrates even the transformations that go against His nature.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

So how can He say that He created evil? I thought evil was not created, that it's not a creature, but the lack of God's goodness in the world.
Romans 5:12: 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.' Who gets the blame for evil? If sin entered by man, then what does 'evil' refer to in Isaiah 45:7?

So how can He say that He created evil? God created all things including the conditions that allowed evil to exist as an idea that then manifested.

Who gets the blame for evil? Satan, the fallen angels and all those who will go to hell but Satan mainly.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Go

d did regret making humanity and that's why he sent the flood. If his plan was perfect, a perfect being by definition can feel no regret because if they had something else to learn, they would not be perfect.

Crystal, I don't think we can define what a 'perfect' being would or would not do; most of us have not run into a perfect being, and we have no idea outside of the Bible what a perfect being might even amount to.

To top it off, if the purpose of the Bible is to show God's Will to humanity, but it only does so through the limitations of human agency, then we have only an anthropomorphic description of what the Perfect God does, feels, or is, which in itself is informative, but in no way enables us to fully envisage or understand what a Perfect God is, in and of Himself. It's this kind of thing that the Tetragrammaton implies.

So, when we read the Flood account, or any other account in the Bible, the fact that the narrative states God had 'remorse,' or 'wept,' or was 'angry,' or 'grieved,' or whatever, simply tells us that God felt something about it; the emotive language used by the ancient writers in the Bible communicates anything but something we can slice and dice logically, or hold up to scrutiny against some 'perfect measure,' a perfect measure that we don't actually have. No one does.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Scripture Police]

Yes God created evil, but did He bring it into the world? Is evil bad? God's ways are not our ways, which could mean that evil is actually good. When a child is punished he thinks it's bad, but it is actually good. Evil has existed since the beginning, so did free will. Man activated evil which was part of God's plan. One cannot appreciate the light unless they have lived in the dark.

 

[TheSeabass]

Isaiah 45:7 says: 'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.'
Yet Genesis 1:31 teaches that 'God saw every thing that he made, and, behold, it was very good.' I think God declared that everything he made was perfect. So how can He say that He created evil? I thought evil was not created, that it's not a creature, but the lack of God's goodness in the world.
Romans 5:12: 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.' Who gets the blame for evil? If sin entered by man, then what does 'evil' refer to in Isaiah 45:7?

The word evil as used in biblical parlance can mean moral evil or sickness or calamity. In Isaiah 45:7 note how "light" is contrasted to "darkness" and "peace" is contrasted to "evil". Therefore "peace" is contrasted to calamity therefore evil does not mean moral evil here. God is perfectly holy and good and would not, cannot create moral evil for it is not within His nature.

Note how all the calamities that happened to Job in Job chapters 1 and 2 in losing his children and assets is called "evil" in Job 42:11. These were calamities that happened to Job and not moral evils. Note also how this verse says "all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him".
Of course the Lord did not cause this "evil" to happen to Job, Satan did back in Job 1:11-12 and Job 2:6. This is a common idiom of the Hebrew language where God is said to actively cause some event when in reality God just allow or permitted it to happen. So Calvinism is wrong on two points here, 1) in accusing God of creating moral evil and 2) accusing God of causing certain events when He only allowed/permitted them to happen.

 

[JohnKing67]

Isaiah 45:7 says: 'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.'
Yet Genesis 1:31 teaches that 'God saw every thing that he made, and, behold, it was very good.' I think God declared that everything he made was perfect. So how can He say that He created evil? I thought evil was not created, that it's not a creature, but the lack of God's goodness in the world.
Romans 5:12: 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.' Who gets the blame for evil? If sin entered by man, then what does 'evil' refer to in Isaiah 45:7?

I think everything God created starts out good, but God allows freewill which gives someone the choice to disobey God and become evil in God's sight. So I guess you could say God created freewill and man (and the fallen angels) chose evil.

 

[marineimaging]

Isaiah 45:7 says: 'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.'
Yet Genesis 1:31 teaches that 'God saw every thing that he made, and, behold, it was very good.' I think God declared that everything he made was perfect. So how can He say that He created evil? I thought evil was not created, that it's not a creature, but the lack of God's goodness in the world.
Romans 5:12: 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.' Who gets the blame for evil? If sin entered by man, then what does 'evil' refer to in Isaiah 45:7?

Read it like this, sister. "'I form the light, and create darkness" So, in the beginning there was nothing. Not even darkness because there was nothing to contrast or oppose darkness or the absence of energy until he made the suns and stars. Therefore, when God created light he also created darkness by default and is clarifying the attribute of these opposing forces. Next God says, "I make peace, and create evil." So, in that God created goodness, evil also becomes created by default and if you continue reading you can see that evil resides and continues on undying in relationship to the creation of man.