Why did God say He created evil?

[zoidar]

You are reading into the account that which is not there (eisegesis). It does not mean that the King of Tyre was, literally, an angel. Ezekiel uses the imagery of an angel to describe the King's declared greatness, before his fall. Verses 12 - 13 in the Hebrew text are set as questions: 'Were you the Seal of Perfection? Were you full of wisdom and flawless in beauty? Were you in the Garden of Eden? Yes, you walked on the mountain among the fiery stones' (refers to David and Solomon). In short, the King was trying to out-G_d, G_d, by the way he saw himself as very much equal to, or even as being better than G_d, and the way he managed the affairs of State, and so these verses are meant to be sarcastic* as are the other parts of the text, before his fate is declared.

*Some versions of the text, because of this sarcasm, are written as positive statements, not as questions, again, simply reflecting back to the King how conceited he was and, for that reason, it is put in direct contrast to the enormity of his downfall and punishment.

You can believe that if you like. But do you agree what I said that sometimes verses talks about two different things, like about both David and Jesus. To David it meant one thing, and to us who know about Jesus it means another thing. If it's like that in the bible why can't those verses about the Babylon king also talk about Satan?

And a question I wonder is, why do you fight so hard to defend that those verses aren't about Satan? Is it because you want to believe that God can create evil?

 

[ldibart]

You can believe that if you like. But do you agree what I said that sometimes verses talks about two different things, like about both David and Jesus. To David it meant one thing, and to us who know about Jesus it means another thing. If it's like that in the bible why can't those verses about the Babylon king also talk about Satan?

And a question I wonder is, why do you fight so hard to defend that those verses aren't about Satan? Is it because you want to believe that God can create evil?

They are 2 fold scriptures referencing the king of tyre and referencing the devil, why use this type of symbolism? why not just come out and say it as he has in other scriptures about other people Sodom and Gomorrah used no other descriptive names .

An evil existed before Mankind here is more information we are to gain from scripture, what was the evil spoken of before Adam and Eve Heber?

"they have become as one of us to know good and evil" what evil was there for them to know that was not known before but became known to them after their fall?

This evil had to exist before them this is hinted in the serpent reference showing an evil was indeed there that evil was present in the serpent. So from this one story we find reasonable examples to show a Satan and that some evil existed BEFORE Adam and Eve

 

[Heber Book List]

You can believe that if you like. But do you agree what I said that sometimes verses talks about two different things, like about both David and Jesus. To David it meant one thing, and to us who know about Jesus it means another thing. If it's like that in the bible why can't those verses about the Babylon king also talk about Satan?

And a question I wonder is, why do you fight so hard to defend that those verses aren't about Satan? Is it because you want to believe that God can create evil?

I agree that that is what you said. I disagree that you can apply it to whatever you wish, whilst ignoring the views of all the academics who believe as I do, and with no real logic to how it is applied. I strongly suggest that you read a Jewish commentary on the books in question and read their (not Christian) commentaries on how it is to be understood. BTW Jews have been around much longer than Christians, and I think they should be understood as knowing their own religion - why should Christians change it to be what they want it to be, based on a sentence in the Christian Testament where haSatan is believed to have been thrown to earth - yet again?

Re your last sentence: 1) I correct people because that is what a theologian does when people get things wrong! See also my comments in the paragraph above. 2) I have already answered that, way back. The Hebrew for 'evil' is 'ra' and it has a number of possible meanings, as does 'shalom', which does not just mean 'peace'. The use of 'ra' to which you refer is not normally translated as 'evil' in the Tanach - it is often 'woe' or a synonym of that, lesser, word.

 

[ldibart]

I agree that that is what you said. I disagree that you can apply it to whatever you wish, whilst ignoring the views of all the academics who believe as I do, and with no real logic to how it is applied. I strongly suggest that you read a Jewish commentary on the books in question and read their (not Christian) commentaries on how it is to be understood. BTW Jews have been around much longer than Christians, and I think they should be understood as knowing their own religion - why should Christians change it to be what they want it to be, based on a sentence in the Christian Testament where haSatan is believed to have been thrown to earth - yet again?

Re your last sentence: 1) I correct people because that is what a theologian does when people get things wrong! See also my comments in the paragraph above. 2) I have already answered that, way back. The Hebrew for 'evil' is 'ra' and it has a number of possible meanings, as does 'shalom', which does not just mean 'peace'. The use of 'ra' to which you refer is not normally translated as 'evil' in the Tanach - it is often 'woe' or a synonym of that, lesser, word.

Jews would not relate the prophesy of the messiah to Christ meaning they Got it wrong and will continue to get them wrong ,how many prophetic scriptures will they miss based on this alone? the 70 weeks of Daniel do you think they will have that correct? They have answers I am sure that will be of a big help but being around a long time is irrelevant if you totally miss who the messiah is the timing of the messiahs first coming so on .

So same will follow when other traditions can tend to interfere with knowledge .such as they do not believe Christ and he said plenty to help reveal scriptures .

 

[Heber Book List]

They are 2 fold scriptures referencing the king of tyre and referencing the devil, why use this type of symbolism? why not just come out and say it as he has in other scriptures about other people Sodom and Gomorrah used no other descriptive names .

An evil existed before Mankind here is more information we are to gain from scripture, what was the evil spoken of before Adam and Eve Heber?

"they have become as one of us to know good and evil" what evil was there for them to know that was not known before but became known to them after their fall?

This evil had to exist before them this is hinted in the serpent reference showing an evil was indeed there that evil was present in the serpent. So from this one story we find reasonable examples to show a Satan and that some evil existed BEFORE Adam and Eve

The text in question reads 'they would know the difference between good and bad'. In other words, they would know that they had a choice - to do that which was good and that which was bad (as the account was written later on). They could follow G_d, or do their own thing, is what they learned, having taken of the Tree from which they were not allowed to eat. Because of that choice G_d had two choices - to kill them off and start again, or to persevere with the two and correct them as they went through life, feeling the punishment that eating from the Tree had brought them. However, G_d loved his creation, of which man and woman were actually a very small part, and so he stuck with them until it all got out of hand again and we get to the flood, where G_d does wipe out all creatures, and vast amounts of plats and trees, except two of each 'animal', 8 humans and 7 of every kind of clean (kosher) animal. When it got out of hand again... well, you probably know some of the rest?

 

[ldibart]

The text in question reads 'they would know the difference between good and bad'. In other words, they would know that they had a choice - to do that which was good and that which was bad (as the account was written later on). They could follow G_d, or do their own thing, is what they learned, having taken of the Tree from which they were not allowed to eat. Because of that choice G_d had two choices - to kill them off and start again, or to persevere with the two and correct them as they went through life, feeling the punishment that eating from the Tree had brought them. However, G_d loved his creation, of which man and woman were actually a very small part, and so he stuck with them until it all got out of hand again and we get to the flood, where G_d does wipe out all creatures, and vast amounts of plats and trees, except two of each 'animal', 8 humans and 7 of every kind of clean (kosher) animal. When it got out of hand again... well, you probably know some of the rest?

So before this taking of the tree of good and evil, they had no idea of this choice? Well either way

That would seem to not make sense based on the fact that GOD told them not to take of the tree of good and evil or they would surely die and they would need to understand death for those words to have meaning ,

therefor they had been made already aware of that type of good and evil ..good i don't take bad I do take and poof dust lol.

This seems to make the good and evil being talked about by God to be different than that of a mere choice of right and wrong.
This good and evil knowing of it would not be a Sin because God would then not know of it in the same way Adam and Eve would know of it

Making it different than the act of committing sin as well

Now the serpent I would assume based on the reply would be metaphoric to you? not sure just a guess ..

 

[Heber Book List]

Jews would not relate the prophesy of the messiah to Christ meaning they Got it wrong and will continue to get them wrong ,how many prophetic scriptures will they miss based on this alone? the 70 weeks of Daniel do you think they will have that correct? They have answers I am sure that will be of a big help but being around a long time is irrelevant if you totally miss who the messiah is the timing of the messiahs first coming so on .

So same will follow when other traditions can tend to interfere with knowledge .such as they do not believe Christ and he said plenty to help reveal scriptures .

Jews have been waiting for Messiah far longer than the world has known about Yeshua! You obviously do not know the Tanach very well. It is quite typical of those who protest that others are wrong, to change tack entirely and ask very different questions. What do you think you, personally, know about Daniel and the 70 weeks - and I do not mean what Google or Wikipedia throws out?

Many Jews will happily accept the fact of Yeshua without much question - the difficulty arises in just two areas: He is portrayed as G_d, but G_d is a single entity, hence the Sh'ma. The Tanach says that when Messiah comes he will usher in a time of true shalom. So, you see, your basic assumption is not correct - the only question is whether Yeshua and the Spirit make G_d to be three distinct entities, and how does one reconcile the prophecy that Messiah will usher in true 'shalom' (which doesn't just mean 'peace'), when it is manifestly the case that true 'shalom' is not in the world by any stretch of the imagination. BTW there is no point moaning about Jews - Christians have had their own Testament (which relies on the Tanach to a such a degree that, if you rubbed out all the allusions to, or quotes from, the Tanach, the Christian Testament would make no sense whatsoever!) for over 2000 years, and have yet to complete the mandate at the end of Matthew's letter, or even get anywhere near completing it!

Anyway - this is not the subject of this thread so we should not be going off on rabbit trails!

 

[Heber Book List]

So before this taking of the tree of good and evil, they had no idea of this choice? Well either way

That would seem to not make sense based on the fact that GOD told them not to take of the tree of good and evil or they would surely die and they would need to understand death for those words to have meaning ,

therefor they had been made already aware of that type of good and evil ..good i don't take bad I do take and poof dust lol.

This seems to make the good and evil being talked about by God to be different than that of a mere choice of right and wrong.
This good and evil knowing of it would not be a Sin because God would then not know of it in the same way Adam and Eve would know of it

Making it different than the act of committing sin as well

Now the serpent I would assume based on the reply would be metaphoric to you? not sure just a guess ..

Oh dear - G_d says that they would die, but they did not - I am surprised you did not mention that, most people do! What it means is that if they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad (please note the 'bad', not evil!) they will know the choice(s) before them BUT... they will be subject to death and, sure enough, they both died. Yeshua, it is said, didn't die, but laid down his human life. A few others didn't die, either, did they? Please remember, as many forget, that the Tanach and the Christian Testament do NOT tell us every little fine detail - we only have the key points or issues. I am sure that G_d explained a lot to lots of people before he did various things, and after, too! Does it not say in scripture that G_d says he will tell us in advance, before things happen? There is a comment in the Christian Testament along the lines of: if all the sayings were written down we would have nowhere to put them in the whole world?

Anyway - enough of the rabbit trail, we need to stop here, I think, because the OP will be getting cross! It is 11.30pm where I live and time for bed! Enjoy your day, or your sleep, whichever comes sooner

 

[ldibart]

70 weeks points the messiah they do not believe Jesus was the messiah and they do not believe he is yet here do they?

I understand they believe that Jesus existed of course but they do not believe he was the messiah

IF he was the messiah surely you can see the prophecy of his first coming for instance would be lost on those that believe the messiah was not him?

"It is quite typical of those who protest that others are wrong, to change tack entirely and ask very different questions"

I simply was reading and responded, my methods of approach may seem a bit different but I assure you they are not off track to my objective based on a scripture you brought up and answer to that question was my only goal .

I wanted to do my best to try to answer the best way I knew how , showing you that possibly the scriptures about the king of tyre can indeed be 2 fold symbolism of a fallen angel and also about the King of tyre .


IF one does not believe in a fallen angel they will miss this.

the same way if someone does not believe Jesus was the messiah they will also miss prophetic scriptures that point to Jesus even when he was to come to earth the first time ..

I am showing an example that if the Jews Do not believe Jesus is the messiah, then how will they believe his words and this can lead to misinterpretation of prophecy .

this is my point to show the possibility that the scripture of the king of Tyre could also be reflective of a The fallen angel .

 

[ldibart]

Oh dear - G_d says that they would die, but they did not - I am surprised you did not mention that, most people do! What it means is that if they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad (please note the 'bad', not evil!) they will know the choice(s) before them BUT... they will be subject to death and, sure enough, they both died. Yeshua, it is said, didn't die, but laid down his human life. A few others didn't die, either, did they? Please remember, as many forget, that the Tanach and the Christian Testament do NOT tell us every little fine detail - we only have the key points or issues. I am sure that G_d explained a lot to lots of people before he did various things, and after, too! Does it not say in scripture that G_d says he will tell us in advance, before things happen? There is a comment in the Christian Testament along the lines of: if all the sayings were written down we would have nowhere to put them in the whole world?

Anyway - enough of the rabbit trail, we need to stop here, I think, because the OP will be getting cross! It is 11.30pm where I live and time for bed! Enjoy your day, or your sleep, whichever comes sooner

Ok thank you and I like that "good and bad"

 

[zoidar]

They are 2 fold scriptures referencing the king of tyre and referencing the devil, why use this type of symbolism? why not just come out and say it as he has in other scriptures about other people Sodom and Gomorrah used no other descriptive names .

You know that Jesus said that Satan fell from heaven? Which is exactly what Isaiah talks about. Jesus says it happened and Isaiah says how it happened.

"And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning."
/Luk 10:18

“How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!
/Isa 14:12

An evil existed before Mankind here is more information we are to gain from scripture, what was the evil spoken of before Adam and Eve Heber?

"they have become as one of us to know good and evil" what evil was there for them to know that was not known before but became known to them after their fall?

This evil had to exist before them this is hinted in the serpent reference showing an evil was indeed there that evil was present in the serpent. So from this one story we find reasonable examples to show a Satan and that some evil existed BEFORE Adam and Eve

Of course evil existed before the fall of Adam and Eve. Lucifers fall was before Adams fall, he had allready rebelled against God in heaven and been cast down to Earth.

 

[zoidar]

why should Christians change it to be what they want it to be, based on a sentence in the Christian Testament where ha Satan is believed to have been thrown to earth - yet again?

What do you mean "yet again"?

 

[ldibart]

You know that Jesus said that Satan fell from heaven? Which is exactly what Isaiah talks about. Jesus says it happened and Isaiah says how it happened.

"And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning."
/Luk 10:18

“How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!
/Isa 14:12

Of course evil existed before the fall of Adam and Eve. Lucifers fall was before Adams fall, he had allready rebelled against God in heaven and been cast down to Earth.

Yes and If someone does not believe Jesus is the Messiah they will not believe His references to Satan and to the old testament. There is an evil that happens naturally its not a "bad" it is quite obvious and seen in all life before the fall and after.

IT happens from the action of being made by something that is superior in every way we by default are less than HE .

This is felt in EVERYTHING, missing the fullness ..we see this in relationship in eating in wanting .its all around us ..it can inspire ALL creation to want to take short cuts by stealing what is not theirs so on but it can also drive us to want to be like God to feel his love ,power

This evil was present in the garden as well the need for man to have a companion ..the need for food .. this evil had to be present to drive man to want to do something good or not good .

This is the very same evil that inspired Satan to fall he lacked something wanted more..it has an effect on ALL created beings .

 

[Heber Book List]

What do you mean "yet again"?

Read, contrast and compare the following scriptures: Genesis has been quoted. Then Job 1 when satan had been walking the earth, but speaks to G_d in heaven. Then Isaiah 14:12 and Ezekiel 28:18 (these two according to some people, but not most academics). Then Matthew 4 with satan back on earth tempting Yeshua. Then Luke 10:18 where Yeshua says, in the past tense, that he had already seen satan thrown to earth. Then Revelation 12:9. Then Revelation 20:10.

and figure it all out! There is no need to reply!

 

[zoidar]

Yes and If someone does not believe Jesus is the Messiah they will not believe His references to Satan and to the old testament. There is an evil that happens naturally its not a "bad" it is quite obvious and seen in all life before the fall and after.

IT happens from the action of being made by something that is superior in every way we by default are less than HE .

This is felt in EVERYTHING, missing the fullness ..we see this in relationship in eating in wanting .its all around us ..it can inspire ALL creation to want to take short cuts by stealing what is not theirs so on but it can also drive us to want to be like God to feel his love ,power

This evil was present in the garden as well the need for man to have a companion ..the need for food .. this evil had to be present to drive man to want to do something good or not good .

This is the very same evil that inspired Satan to fall he lacked something wanted more..it has an effect on ALL created beings .

So you mean evil is a natural cause of creation? Why would then not heaven be the same thing, a place where also evil exists?

 

[zoidar]

Read, contrast and compare the following scriptures: Genesis has been quoted. Then Job 1 when satan had been walking the earth, but speaks to G_d in heaven. Then Isaiah 14:12 and Ezekiel 28:18 (these two according to some people, but not most academics). Then Matthew 4 with satan back on earth tempting Yeshua. Then Luke 10:18 where Yeshua says, in the past tense, that he had already seen satan thrown to earth. Then Revelation 12:9. Then Revelation 20:10.

and figure it all out! There is no need to reply!

I think you need to explain this more. They are all taking about the same fall of Lucifer. Not many falls.

 

[ldibart]

So you mean evil is a natural cause of creation? Why would then not heaven be the same thing, a place where also evil exists?

Anywhere were the want to do something or the need.Because of this form of evil or not being as complete as God even God has to do things such as create a woman for the man because it was not good for him to be alone

to be able to choose between doing right or wrong without the desire is not it, the WANT to choose to do one OR the other, this is what I mean the want to choose .

Its not a sin thing or a bad thing ..this form of evil is what was meant when God said he created it. Its not sin or even a good or bad until we use it to make something from it .. a right or a wrong ..


. In the end this form of evil will be filled by Christ glory he ascends to fill the heavens with his glory ..his love joy peace that passes all understanding he is doing this now with churches ephesians 4:10-13 talks about it 10 "He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things".)..as we can be indwelled by his holy spirit more and more of the want to do wrong fades .

but it exists or Adam and Eve would not have wanted to eat or would not have needed a wife ,they would not have cared to want to take from the tree . The force that produces it is actually trying to be complete ..thats as best as I can relate it . ITs not bad or sin God by his nature cannot create sin sin=death .

I am just going by the definition KJV and what evil God spoke of the natural state of being created less than the maker leaves a void that void in us we feel it


this less than God state triggers desires one way or the other.

Satan fell from heaven Christ has filled heaven with his glory, this solves a question

"well if Satan fell ,whats to stop others from falling"? Christ is filling us as well down here .

 

[shadowhunter]

Isaiah 45:7 says: 'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.'

It should also be noted that God through Isaiah is expounding on the name Yahweh.

Hebrew is deeply rooted, so much so that the words take their meaning from the combined meaning of the letters within.

Adam came from adamah (ground) and he has dam (blood) within, and the a- (spirit) on his face. [God breathed into adam]. The blood is life ("Life is in the blood") and dam דם consists of the commandment (dalet) ד competed by the flesh (final mem) ם.

Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Yahweh יהוה is yah י , God the creator (yud) י - of calamity (evil) havvah הוה.

Isaiah was also teaching us to understand Hebrew, not merely read it. 'I the LORD (yah-weh) do all these things.'