Why did God make Gospel so confusing?

The gospels were written decades after the death of Jesus and did not become formalized until centuries later. There is bound to be errors and confusing passages within them as a result.

That's one interpretation. But it's clear from Matthew 25 that good works also result in salvation, and lack of good works results in eternal damnation.

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Lack of good works does not result in eternal damnation; disbelief in the Lord Jesus Christ & rejection of His salvation & imputed righteousness does.

John 14:5,6 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way & the truth & the life. NO ONE comes to the Father EXCEPT THROUGH ME.

Acts 4:5-12, On the next day their rulers & elders & scribes gathered together in Jerusalem, with Annas the high priest & Caiaphas & John & Alexander & all who were of the high-priestly family.

7And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired, “By what POWER or by what name did you do this?” Then Peter, FILLED WITH the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people & elders, if we are being examined today concerning a GOOD DEED done to a crippled man, BY WHAT MEANS this man has been healed,

10let it be known to all of you & to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—BY HIM THIS MAN IS STANDING BEFORE YOU WELL.

11This Jesus is the stone that was REJECTED BY YOU, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation IN NO ONE ELSE, for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven GIVEN AMONG MEN, BY WHICH WE MUST be saved.”

16What shall we do with these men? For that a notable sign has been performed THROUGH THEM IS EVIDENT to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem & we cannot deny it. But in order that it may spread no further among the people, let us warn them to speak no more to anyone in this name.” So they called them & charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.

23When they were released...they lifted their voices together to God & said, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod & Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles & the peoples of Israel,

28to do WHATEVER YOUR HAND & YOUR PLAN HAD PREDESTINED TO TAKE PLACE. And now, Lord, look upon their threats & grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness,

30while YOU STRETCH OUT YOUR HAND TO HEAL & signs &wonders are performed THROUGH THE NAME OF YOUR HOLY SERVANT JESUS.”

This good deed done to the crippled man was not done by the apostles but by the hand of God who healed Him. All these good deeds, signs & wonders are performed through the Name of Christ. He did them THROUGH the apostles. This is emphatically stated.

Matt 11:27 All things have been entrusted to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father & no one knows the Father except the Son & anyone to whom the Son desires to reveal Him.

Acts 10:43 All the prophets testify about Him that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name."

John 5:36-40 For the WORKS that the Father has GIVEN ME TO ACCOMPLISH, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about Me that the Father has sent Me. And the Father who sent Me has Himself borne witness about Me. His voice you have never heard, His form you have never seen & you do not have His word abiding in you, for you DO NOT BELIEVE the One whom He has sent.

39You search the Scriptures because you think that IN THEM you have eternal life; yet it is they that bear witness ABOUT ME, yet you REFUSE TO COME TO ME THAT YOU MAY HAVE LIFE.

It is obvious that even the Lord Jesus Christ, God the Son, was not saved by the good works that the Father gave Him to accomplish. He did them through the power of the Holy Spirit while He walked this earth. That is what we are to do. The power & the accomplishment is not of us; it is of Him. I can take no credit for it; so no credit of righteousness for salvation on my own can be claimed.

John 15:1ff “I am the true vine & My Father is the vinedresser. “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away & every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. “You are already CLEAN because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me & I in you. AS THE BRANCH CANNOT BEAR FRUIT OF ITSELF UNLESS IT ABIDES IN THE VINE, SO NEITHER CAN YOU UNLESS YOU ABIDE IN ME.

5I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me & I in him, he bears much fruit, FOR APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING. My Father is glorified BY THIS, that you bear much fruit & SO PROVE TO BE MY DISCIPLES.

Phil 2:12,13 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work OUT your salvation with fear & trembling; for IT IS GOD WHO IS AT WORK IN YOU, BOTH TO WILL & TO WORK for His good pleasure.

Over & over again, we can do nothing APART from God working in & through us as Christians. He does the work, He gives the grace & power to accomplish good works through us. We didn't do it.

A branch doesn't produce fruit, the vine does. A branch is a willing vessel. As long as it abides in the vine, the flow of all the nutrients to produce fruit comes into the branch from the vine. If you have a vine, it can produce fruit. But if the branch is cut off from the vine & left to itself, it withers & dies. The same is true for Christ's disciples, we don't produce the good works or the fruit; He does in & through us as we abide in Him. We prove we are His disciples by simply abiding in Him & allowing Him to produce His fruit in & through us. No credit or boasting can be made on our part, but praise is given to God who WORKED in us & accomplished through us what He willed & according to His good pleasure.

The whole gospel message of Christianity from start until now is that we cannot save ourselves. We are spiritually dead because of our trespasses & sins, separated from the eternal life of God, without God in this world. Until one recognizes that they are lost & separated from the life of God, there will be no need to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I can make myself right before God on my own.

God does not send people to hell, they send themselves by choosing to reject God & His only way to obtain righteousness in Christ, to reject Christ & substitutionary death, burial & resurrection & instead go their own way, depending upon themselves. Jesus taught that there is a wide road that leads to destruction & a narrow road that leads to life. There is a gate of entrance on the narrow road & Jesus said He is the only entrance by which one must go through to enter into life.

This is the hardest thing any human being can accept. We cannot save ourselves by our own works of self-righteousness. Everyone seems to start with the premise that they are not that bad, that God will somehow wink at their rebellious disobedience against Him & accept them. The truth is that we are that bad, lost & separate from God BECAUSE of our evil works & disobedience. There is salvation ONLY in the Lord Jesus Christ. No one else. Not us, not our parents, not our religious leaders, not by any decision made by another human being.

God's righteousness & salvation is not of ourselves, it is not achieved by good works. Salvation does not result from good works. It is a gift. One cannot earn salvation by doing good works. It is a fruit of being saved. Good works done by God working in & through us show we are saved, not save us.

John 6:26-40 Jesus answered them & said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves & were filled. Do NOT work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall WE DO, so that WE MAY WORK THE WORKS OF GOD?” Jesus answered & said to them, “This is THE WORK OF GOD, that you BELIEVE IN HIM WHOM HE HAS SENT.”

35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger & he who believes in Me will never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me & yet do NOT BELIEVE.

37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me & the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son & BELIEVES IN HIM WILL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE & I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

A rich young ruler was told by Jesus that following commandments will result in him 'entering into life', not rewards, but eternal life. (Matthew 19:17). The rich man couldn't give up his riches & went away sad. But if the "grace" teaching of the modern Christians is right, that young man did not have to leave his riches in order to be saved!

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Here again your ignorance & not understanding the text is obvious. First, the rich young ruler IS NOT SAVED, so the issue of rewards is not there. He must first become saved.

Second, no one can keep the commandments of God perfectly. One broken commandment at any time in one's life leads to separation from God, spiritual death & lost. Jesus KNEW this! The young ruler was boasting in his accomplishments, which got him lost. And he didn't keep all the commandments. He was breaking the 10th commandment of covetousness.

John 7:16-19 “My teaching is not My own,” Jesus replied. “It comes from Him who sent Me. If anyone desires to do His will, he will know whether My teaching is from God or whether I speak on My own. He who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory, but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is a man of truth; in Him there is no falsehood. Has not Moses given you the law? YET NOT ONE OF YOU KEEPS IT.

Isaiah 53:5,6 But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him & by His stripes we are healed. WE ALL like sheep have gone astray, each one has turned to HIS OWN WAY & the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Matt 16:26 For what is a man profited if he shall gain the whole world & lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Psalm 48:7-9 No man can possibly redeem his brother or pay his ransom to God, since the price of redeeming him is too costly, one should forever stop trying--no payment is enough.

Job 36:17-19 But now you are laden with the judgment due the wicked; judgment & justice have seized you. Because there is wrath, beware lest He take you away with one blow; for a large ransom would not help you avoid it (cannot deliver you). Can your wealth or all your mighty effort keep you from distress?

I Timothy 2:6 Who gave HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time.

The rich young ruler KNEW this wasn't enough, it wouldn't work because he fell short & knew it. Something else was needed but he didn't know what that would amount to, so he asked Jesus what was still lacking.

Grace does not teach you can depend on anything else except Christ to save you. You are making an assertion that isn't shown in the Christian doctrine of being saved by grace through faith & that not of yourself.

Jesus taught that one had to deny oneself, take up one's cross daily (dying daily) & give up all they have, IF they wanted to be His disciple. Peter demonstrated that concerning Christ's disciples & apostles:

Mark 10:23-31 Then Jesus looked around & said to His disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!” And the disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus said to them again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

They were even more astonished & said to one another, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them & said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.”

28Peter began to say to Him, “Look, we have left everything & followed You.”

29“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for My sake & for the gospel will fail to receive a hundredfold in the present age—houses & brothers & sisters & mothers & children & fields, along with persecutions—& in the age to come, eternal life. But many who are first will be last & the last will be first.”

He had to give up his riches because that was his god, his dependence was on them, not Christ. In order to be saved, confessing Christ as Lord & obediently following Him, he must give up the one thing that KEPT him from being saved, his Master of money. God was not His Master, thus by breaking the commandment on coveting, He had broken all the rest. The very first commandment is to have no other gods before or besides Me. Money was his god, placed before God. He was not willing to give it up in order to have eternal life. He was not willing to give it up in order follow Christ.

The false teaching of supposed 'grace' that you assert is not the biblical teaching of Christ or the Scriptures.

BigV said:

Well, you need to provide a context . Your son doesn't have to worry about his non-Christian friends frying in Hell for all eternity. He doesn't need to worry about himself going to Hell for all eternity either.

Here is a short video of Richard Dawkins "You are going to die, and that makes you one of the lucky ones" speech.


Besides, there is no better alternative to a Santa Claus. But that doesn't make Santa real.

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So, you have no report about your own exploits then? And you're just going to cite and quote from Mr. Dawkins, presenting his 'good news' without a context of your own? What, don't you have kids yet?

BigV said:

It's also pretty clear that these teachings are requiring works. Matthew 19, which referenced these commandments required a rich man to give up all his wealth in order to enter life, a feat he could not do. Why is grace available to some Christians and not the rich young ruler?

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That passage never explicitly says that the rich, young ruler is damned, so I don't seen any indication that grace isn't available to him. We don't know what happened afterwards.

The really interesting thing about Matthew 19 is Matthew 19:25-26, where there is an acknowledgement that the standard is impossible. The passage starts out with a focus on salvation through works, and then turns it on its head at the end and says that people cannot actually save themselves. I don't think this means that works don't matter, since there are passages that are much more works oriented, but this isn't one of them. This is a grace passage.

BigV said:

Well, suit yourself.

The good news of Atheism is that there is no eternal hell and you don't have to suffer in Hell for all eternity for offending Abrahamic Deity.

Think of how many children can be comforted with the above thought?

Teach Them: About Hell

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Atheism is actually compatible with belief in an eternal hell, since you don't need to be a theist to believe in the immortality of the soul.

The good news of Atheism is that there is no eternal hell and you don't have to suffer in Hell for all eternity for offending Abrahamic Deity.

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You cannot prove there is no God and you cannot prove there is no eternal hell. So what good news do you have? You offer no hope, that all we have is this life & then nothing. You only assert there isn't a God or an eternal hell, but it doesn't make it not true. It doesn't make it go away.

It is built on a very unstable foundation. That to me is not good news at all. But the good news, the gospel message that Jesus preached is indeed good news. You can escape from an eternal hell by trusting in Christ to save you. He accomplished it on the cross & offers it to every person, as a gift. You can't earn it, you can't work for it, you receive it & obtain the very eternal life of God. You pass out of spiritual death & into eternal spiritual life. The only ones who end up in hell are the ones who reject the 'good news' found only in Christ.

Not sure what you mean by Abrahamic Deity. If you mean Abraham is a god, is Deity, then nowhere in Scripture does it teach that or in ancient, historical Christian doctrine. You will have to explain yourself here. Thanks & thanks for the discussion. It is stimulating & I continue to learn from Christ & the Scriptures, which are the Word of Truth, the very Word of God.

BigV said:

Besides, there is no better alternative to a Santa Claus. But that doesn't make Santa real.

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If there is a 'besides' here, it's the fact that unlike a number of my fellow Christians, I don't believe in an Eternal HADES. You must have forgotten that I mentioned this in the past.

No, I rather think Hades will come to its own demise at some point in the future. So, my own son, either way, won't have to worry about his friends 'frying' in any Eternal Hell Fire.

Silmarien said:

The really interesting thing about Matthew 19 is Matthew 19:25-26, where there is an acknowledgement that the standard is impossible. The passage starts out with a focus on salvation through works, and then turns it on its head at the end and says that people cannot actually save themselves. I don't think this means that works don't matter, since there are passages that are much more works oriented, but this isn't one of them. This is a grace passage.

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I do no think that passage was to imply that it was impossible for man to do good works to be saved. The disciples where astonished that if even a rich man could not get into heaven, then who could? Jesus was correcting the common assumption at the time that wealth was an instant proof of one's favor by God. Jesus tells them that through God all things are possible which is self-evident.

miamited said:

I don't think you'll find much, if any, disagreement among christians that Jesus did take upon himself the punishment of our sins and died in our place, as that punishment.

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While you, as a Christian, have presumably spoken with more Christians than I have, I can assure you that I, as an atheist, have spoken to more kinds of Christians than you have.

There are many Christians who disagree "that Jesus did take upon himself the punishment of our sins and died in our place, as that punishment." Substitutional atonement theory is but one of many atonement theories.

There is a massive flaw in substitutional atonement theory. It comes down to one simple question: is God above the law or isn't he? Now, I understand that if God commands farmers to let the soil rest every seventh year, that's something that obviously does not apply to God himself. That commandment is a "Thou shalt" or "Thou shalt not" type of commandment. But there are "shall" and "shall not" commandments also. If God is above even these, then he's got to be above the law. But if he's above the law, where's the need for substitutional atonement? Couldn't God just forgive us as an act of will and still be a just God if he's able to violate his own "shall" and "shall not" laws and still be just?

Recall when God afflicted David's infant son with a fatal illness in 2 Samuel 12. This is at odds with Deuteronomy 24:16, which says, "Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin." This is a "shall not" commandment that God is openly violating. It is clear that the Old Testament Jews accepted in a simple way that their God is sovereign and that he could just do whatever he wants. But yet your substitutional atonement theory will have us believe that God is unable to forgive us apart from Christ's death, no matter how much he wants to do so.

So which is it? Is God above the law or isn't he? If you respond along the lines of, "I'm not God, so I can't know this" then you've conceded the point of the thread:

So, as Christians, you have your work cut out for you even after you have convinced an atheist that a Christian God exists. You now have to make sure that atheist understand the Gospel, but there is a debate even among Christians as to what that Gospel is.

@2PhiloVoid, I thought you were quitting apologetics at the new year. Am I mistaken or did you change your mind?

Nihilist Virus said:

@2PhiloVoid, I thought you were quitting apologetics at the new year. Am I mistaken or did you change your mind?

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No, I am about to recede. I'm just getting a few last words in ...

... of course, this only means that I'll be refraining from the apologetics section, not CF as a whole.

2PhiloVoid said:

No, I am about to recede. I'm just getting a few last words in ...

... of course, this only means that I'll be refraining from the apologetics section, not CF as a whole.

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Nooooo Our conversation is just starting to get somewhere, in the resurrection thread....

cvanwey said:

Nooooo Our conversation is just starting to get somewhere, in the resurrection thread....

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Well, it's not as if you don't still have all of our discussion material (and a number of references therein) that still remains available and has been building ever since May of 2018. Go back, review and ponder over it all ...

Hi NV,

Thanks for your response.

Nihilist Virus said:

So, as Christians, you have your work cut out for you even after you have convinced an atheist that a Christian God exists. You now have to make sure that atheist understand the Gospel, but there is a debate even among Christians as to what that Gospel is.

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I agree with your position concerning possible difficulty in understanding the gospel. But, I disagree as to who is responsible for the work that you say is 'cut out' for me. I think the Scriptures are clear that it is God who draws all men to Him. The work of a believer is merely to proclaim the gospel, not to come up with some convincing way to make more people believe it.

I always remind people that have such ideas that it's a believer's job to convince them of the truth of the gospel to look to the time of Jesus. Now, you're likely not going to agree with this assessment, but according to the Scriptures, God had been working in and through the people of Israel for some several centuries before Jesus came. Then Jesus came and the Scriptures declare for us that he is the Son of God. Yet in his three years or so of teaching and preaching among those who were supposed to know and understand God more than any other group of people on the earth in that day, his ministry was not well received and was not particularly successful in gaining some great tide of believers among that group.

My point being that if the Son of God wasn't particularly successful in changing men's hearts...I don't expect to be either. But, I am commanded to do the work of proclaiming the gospel and allow the chips to fall where they may. However, there are some underlying supports, for those of us who believe, besides just hearing and understanding the gospel, that give us a great confidence in what we proclaim to believe.

I believe God's word. In it, God has caused to be written the words of His Son. One of the issues that Jesus pretty clearly explains is that the salvation of God for mankind, isn't ever going to be particularly well received or accepted. He explained at one point in his teaching that there are two ways out of this life. One is through a broad gate through which many pass. The other is a narrow gate through which only a 'few' pass.

But, as I say, for me anyway, there are other evidences found within the Scriptures that should make a reasonable person at least stop and say, "hmmmm". While I fully understand, also as the Scriptures tell us, that in general man is going to rebel against the truth of God, for those who earnestly seek, God will be found.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

2PhiloVoid said:

Well, it's not as if you don't still have all of our discussion material (and a number of references therein) that still remains available and has been building ever since May of 2018. Go back, review and ponder over it all ...

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Unfortunately, even if I did, I'm still asking for evidence for a very specific event. And even the Bible states that nothing else matters, if He did not rise.

cvanwey said:

Unfortunately, even if I did, I'm still asking for evidence for a very specific event. And even the Bible states that nothing else matters, if He did not rise.

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Look, I'm done here in Apologetics for the most part. I'm sorry you couldn't find it in yourself to indicate to me that you wanted to study together various materials that I have and that have influenced my own thinking and my faith over the years. However, sometimes, when you play the game you're playing for too long (by which I mean you, not me), people do get burned out (again, by which I mean me, not you). So, I'm for the most part done here.

From this point on, the ONLY time I'll be showing up here is if someone BRAND NEW just happens to wander into one of my threads and asks some questions.

Have a happy life, and I hope to see you in Eternity with Christ.

[2PV sadly shakes the dust off of his sandals and wanders off into the Son-set ...!]

2PhiloVoid said:

Look, I'm done here in Apologetics for the most part. I'm sorry you couldn't find it in yourself to indicate to me that you wanted to study together various materials that I have and that have influenced my own thinking and my faith over the years. However, sometimes, when you play the game you're playing for too long (by which I mean you, not me), people do get burned out (again, by which I mean you, not you). So, I'm for the most part done here.

From this point on, the ONLY time I'll be showing up here is if someone BRAND NEW just happens to wander into one of my threads and asks some questions.

Have a happy life, and I hope to see you in Eternity with Christ.

[2PV sadly shakes the dust off of his sandals and wanders off into the Son-set ...!]

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Please see my reply in the other thread

Starcomet said:

I do no think that passage was to imply that it was impossible for man to do good works to be saved. The disciples where astonished that if even a rich man could not get into heaven, then who could? Jesus was correcting the common assumption at the time that wealth was an instant proof of one's favor by God. Jesus tells them that through God all things are possible which is self-evident.

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Except that he explicitly says that with men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. I don't think you can ignore the first half of that reply.