Why Did God allow Satan to tempt Adam and Eve?

[heron]

While I was digging up that chill pill, a friend sent me a different type -- without even knowing I was looking!

Love those Millanet graphics.

 

[revmalone]

It seems to me that It all went wrong when Satan came along in the form of a serpent. When God threw Satan out of Heaven, why couldn't he put him somewhere else in the universe far away from earth?

Hey
Thats a big subject to explain, in a short answer. You would have to explain to you the whole bible but I'll save you and others that.

From the way it all comes together in the Scriptures, given man the choice made a purer love for God, in mankind.

If man was made and knew nothing more then the state of bliss, he would be just a pleasent creation to be around but there would be lacking a passionate love for God.

Given man, right and wrong seperates those who choose to reject him, and those who embrace him, by there own choosing. It is each persons choice to do what ever they want to do.

And when Judgement day comes our love will explode from thankfulness as we watch those who rejected get there final punishments. That is the Day those who reject to follow him will get there last request's granted and God will never have another thing to do with them again.

But they must burn inside the purification fires God Created to for them, Called the Lake of Fire. Those of us who made that one choice, what could you say, we will be so glade but others well what can you say people are being told how important this choice is and they brush it off, but that is there choice.

That choice made love- heart felt. God wanted sons and daughters who would love him for him, not just for what he could do or give, he is a Father and those who want him to be theres must come his way, by Jesus.

Any who want to choose now only need to ask Jesus to forgive you, tell him your sins , and to make you his. that Choice will be your most important.

If God hadn't had planned in that little choice then love from mankind was as deep as it could go. The Devil didn't know it was all pre-planed out before God Created him, according to the Scriptures.

See it is a very deep subject for that little choice isn't it.

Choose before you die, to late afterwards.
Rev Malone

 

[Ben12]

Hey
Thats a big subject to explain, in a short answer. You would have to explain to you the whole bible but I'll save you and others that.

From the way it all comes together in the Scriptures, given man the choice made a purer love for God, in mankind.

If man was made and knew nothing more then the state of bliss, he would be just a pleasent creation to be around but there would be lacking a passionate love for God.

Given man, right and wrong seperates those who choose to reject him, and those who embrace him, by there own choosing. It is each persons choice to do what ever they want to do.

And when Judgement day comes our love will explode from thankfulness as we watch those who rejected get there final punishments. That is the Day those who reject to follow him will get there last request's granted and God will never have another thing to do with them again.

But they must burn inside the purification fires God Created to for them, Called the Lake of Fire. Those of us who made that one choice, what could you say, we will be so glade but others well what can you say people are being told how important this choice is and they brush it off, but that is there choice.

That choice made love- heart felt. God wanted sons and daughters who would love him for him, not just for what he could do or give, he is a Father and those who want him to be theres must come his way, by Jesus.

Any who want to choose now only need to ask Jesus to forgive you, tell him your sins , and to make you his. that Choice will be your most important.

If God hadn't had planned in that little choice then love from mankind was as deep as it could go. The Devil didn't know it was all pre-planed out before God Created him, according to the Scriptures.

See it is a very deep subject for that little choice isn't it.

Choose before you die, to late afterwards.
Rev Malone

But if this is true then where is the scripture on mankind choosing God? Please show me one verse or it is hype….

 

[heron]

Jos 24:15
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve...but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Pr 1:29
Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord.

Isa 56:4
For thus says the Lord, "To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths, and choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant,

1Ki 11:6
Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, and did not follow the Lord fully, as David his father had done.

1Ki 18:21
Elijah came near to all the people and said, "How long will you hesitate between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him."

 

[heron]

Negotiation along with choices:


Lu 9:59, 61
And He said to another, "Follow Me." But he said, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father."...Another also said, "I will follow You, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those at home."

Joh 13:37
Peter said to Him, "Lord, why can I not follow You right now? I will lay down my life for You."

Jonah 4
But it greatly displeased Jonah and he became angry. 2 He prayed to the LORD and said, "Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country?

Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity.

"Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for death is better to me than life." The LORD said, "Do you have good reason to be angry?"


Ex 4:1
Then Moses said, "What if they will not believe me or listen to what I say? For they may say, `The Lord has not appeared to you.' "

Genesis 18:23-33
Abraham came near and said, "Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ge+18:24&sr=1&t=nas"Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it?

 

[Ben12]

Jos 24:15
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve...but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Pr 1:29
Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord.

Isa 56:4
For thus says the Lord, "To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths, and choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant,

1Ki 11:6
Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, and did not follow the Lord fully, as David his father had done.

1Ki 18:21
Elijah came near to all the people and said, "How long will you hesitate between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him."

All OT verses. Salvation by choice must be a NT revelation.

 

[Ben12]

Negotiation along with choices:


Lu 9:59, 61
And He said to another, "Follow Me." But he said, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father."...Another also said, "I will follow You, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those at home."

Joh 13:37
Peter said to Him, "Lord, why can I not follow You right now? I will lay down my life for You."

Jonah 4
But it greatly displeased Jonah and he became angry. 2 He prayed to the LORD and said, "Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country?

Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity.

"Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for death is better to me than life." The LORD said, "Do you have good reason to be angry?"


Ex 4:1
Then Moses said, "What if they will not believe me or listen to what I say? For they may say, `The Lord has not appeared to you.' "

Genesis 18:23-33
Abraham came near and said, "Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ge+18:24&sr=1&t=nas"Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it?

We all have choices; all kinds of choices; but my point is we are saved by grace and not freewill. Yes I agree they choice to follow Jesus; but this has nothing to do with receiving Christ as savior; or a better way of putting it justification by faith.

At the time Jesus had not died; was not resurrected. This was a choice to follow Christ in his ministry on earth.

God must draw us; and if God draw/drag us their is no choice. I still have not seen freewill or choice towards salvation.

 

[Calminian]

But if this is true then where is the scripture on mankind choosing God? Please show me one verse or it is hype….

Ben we should take this into the soteriology forum, but just real quickly, I think you're rigging the game by asking us to show verses for freewill. I think the burden is on you to show we are all preprogrammed robots. If you can't, freewill is implicit in God's commandments. He tells us what we ought to do. Ought implies ability. Things that are preprogrammed ought to do exactly what they do and never anything else. If something ought to do otherwise, it must be free.

Here's the soteriology forum. If you want to try to make a biblical case for determinism I'd be happy to look at it.

Oh and BTW, don't mind heron. She hates all challenges except those she initiates. She's could stand to lighten up a little herself.

 

[Raul7]

But if this is true then where is the scripture on mankind choosing God? Please show me one verse or it is hype….

We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the Mountains; but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof: but mankind undertook it - He was indeed unjust and foolish. (Quran 33:72)

 

[Ben12]

God had a savior before He had a sinner; that is why the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth.

1 Peter 1:19

but with the precious blood of Christ,​

as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 Heindeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory,​

so that your faith and hope are in God.​

​

Revelation 13:8​

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,​

whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.​

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)​

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.​

​

1 Corin 15: 21:​

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23: But every man in his own order:​

​

 

[Ben12]

What is (Quran 33:72)?

 

[Ben12]

Ben we should take this into the soteriology forum, but just real quickly, I think you're rigging the game by asking us to show verses for freewill. I think the burden is on you to show we are all preprogrammed robots. If you can't, freewill is implicit in God's commandments. He tells us what we ought to do. Ought implies ability. Things that are preprogrammed ought to do exactly what they do and never anything else. If something ought to do otherwise, it must be free.

Here's the soteriology forum. If you want to try to make a biblical case for determinism I'd be happy to look at it.

Oh and BTW, don't mind heron. She hates all challenges except those she initiates. She's could stand to lighten up a little herself.

No one saying we are pre-programmed robots. But when it comes to Salvation we are saved by grace not freewill. God draws/drags us; do I need to re-post the verses. If you like many social religions want to believe tradition and religious dogma and ignore what is written in scripture; as well as believe what is not written in the Bible; so believe it.

 

[revmalone]

But if this is true then where is the scripture on mankind choosing God? Please show me one verse or it is hype….

Hey
John 3:12-21 12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

If the fall of Satan recorded in Isaiah 14:12-16
had not happened to satan, then Genesis chp 3 the fall of mankind couldn't have happened.

If there wasn't any fall no need of a Saviour to come to Save people from sin. It all come together like a spiders web.

But there is the real fact of sin bringing death to those who have it, Romans 5:12-21
12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13. (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21. That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

If you will die then you are infected with sin, it took God to bypass the mans seed and put the Saviour Jesus Christ into the Virgin womb himself, making his blood sinless. No human could ever do this after that fall.

You will need Jesus also, we all do or we don't come to God his right way, all who try he said will perish.

Rev Malone

 

[Ben12]

Hey
John 3:12-21 12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

If the fall of Satan recorded in Isaiah 14:12-16
had not happened to satan, then Genesis chp 3 the fall of mankind couldn't have happened.

If there wasn't any fall no need of a Saviour to come to Save people from sin. It all come together like a spiders web.

But there is the real fact of sin bringing death to those who have it, Romans 5:12-21
12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13. (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21. That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

If you will die then you are infected with sin, it took God to bypass the mans seed and put the Saviour Jesus Christ into the Virgin womb himself, making his blood sinless. No human could ever do this after that fall.

You will need Jesus also, we all do or we don't come to God his right way, all who try he said will perish.

Rev Malone

I love John 3:16 and yes we need a savior; but according to scripture salvation come from grace not freewill. God draws/drags us by his grace then we come. Freewill comes from religion and religious bias not scripture.

Lucifer; is he really the devil?

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering-----------in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth -----15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Is 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning!------13 For thou hast said in thine heart (mind) I will ascend into heaven, ---- 14 I will belike the most High, 15 yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit, -----16----Is this the MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms------.


Now the religious system teaches that Ez 28:13 and Is 14:12 are speaking of Satan and the KJ Bible is the only version that uses the word Lucifer. It is not even a Hebrew word.

Moffat translation says "What a fall from heaven O Shining star of the dawns" Rotherham"How hast thou fallen from heaven, O shining One, son of the dawn!"Amplified "how are you fallen from heaven O light-bearer and day star, son of the morning!"

2 Pet 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.

Rev 22:16 I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these thing sin the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

The word Lucifer in the Strong's Concordance says it is a title applied to the king of Babylon. The word itself means the morning star. In the natural it is speaking of a King and in the spiritual it is speaking of Adam. The word MAN means a mortal, an individual, a male person. I could rest my case on just that one verse alone, but why would Peter under the direction of the Holy Spirit compare Jesus as the Day star with Lucifer the Devil?
It is the erroneous translation of the KJ that infers such.

Is14:15 says he was brought down to hell, (sheol, place of the dead) the side of the pit. Satan is never thrown in the grave because he has no part in a natural death as he is a spiritual being. Only MAN dies and is placed in a grave. Evil spirits only go to a place called Tartarus and Satan the high ranking one is sent to the lake of fire.( which is not hell)

When Adam was placed in Eden he was perfect. When Adam fell he fell from a lofty realm. He was cast out of that realm. Adam because of the fall caused Kingdoms to shake and made the world as a wilderness. The fall brought us down into this realm of vanity. Adam was the1st Adam and Jesus is the last Adam.

Even the Jews knew the true name of Satan. They called him Beelzebub. Satan was created a tool

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNINGand abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING.For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..


I cannot see that Satan had two beginnings. The word beginning in the Greek means beginning. Not first he was an angel, second he was a murder and liar. Which one was he? Do we take the RCC's translation or do we take the correct translation of the word Lucifer?

In the beginning Man was full of light and Satan was full of darkness. God is not working on a plan B. He has had a plan and a purpose from the beginning and Satan was a part of that plan. Simply a tool. Never an angel.

This is my stand and I feel that you have a choice to believe the word of God or to accept a false doctrine made up in the minds of religious men.


I have been a born again christian for well over 45 years; but I was saved by grace.

 

[Ben12]

Hey

But there is the real fact of sin bringing death to those who have it, Romans 5:12-21
12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13. (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21. That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

If you will die then you are infected with sin, it took God to bypass the mans seed and put the Saviour Jesus Christ into the Virgin womb himself, making his blood sinless. No human could ever do this after that fall.

You will need Jesus also, we all do or we don't come to God his right way, all who try he said will perish.

Rev Malone

Romans 5 speaks of spiritual death.

Adam died when he partook of the fruit in the garden; he did not die physically until he was 930 years old. (Gen. 5.5) He died spiritually. A dead man cannot hear, see, touch, feel, etc. That is especially true of a spiritual dead man. The Spirit of Truth is the only power that awake a spiritual man out of the death state; he is so dead spiritually all the freewill doctrine in this carnal or religious world will never wake him from spiritual death.



God had a savior/a plan before he had a sinner. Jesus was chosen from the beginning of the earth as that lamb slain from that foundation of the earth.

Jesus would not; and could not go against the will of the Father. He was for ordained; and was the son of God. It was the will of the Father that His first son would fail; it was the will of the Father that His second son would be triumphant. He knew the sacrifice and He accomplished it.

Rom 11:32: For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (The word might was added by the translator; God does not “might” anything)

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 7: 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Romans 8:6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

 

[Raul7]

What is (Quran 33:72)?

The last Revelation sent down by God to mankind.

 

[Calminian]

Romans 5 speaks of spiritual death.

Adam died when he partook of the fruit in the garden; he did not die physically until he was 930 years old. (Gen. 5.5) He died spiritually. A dead man cannot hear, see, touch, feel, etc. That is especially true of a spiritual dead man. The Spirit of Truth is the only power that awake a spiritual man out of the death state; he is so dead spiritually all the freewill doctrine in this carnal or religious world will never wake him from spiritual death.

This is all true but you need to be careful to understand metaphors the way the author understood them. Depraved man is also metaphorically described as sick, blind, enslaved and even married. There is no question that Paul and other N. T. authors were trying to describe fallen man's condition as totally inhibiting. Both arminian and calvinist traditions hold firmly to the doctrine of total depravity (or inability). Both see the necessity of God's grace prior to faith. Arminians see this as prevenient or enabling grace. Calvinists see it as irresistible or efficacious grace.

God had a savior/a plan before he had a sinner. Jesus was chosen from the beginning of the earth as that lamb slain from that foundation of the earth.

This is consistent with both arminian and calvinist schemes.

Jesus would not; and could not go against the will of the Father. He was for ordained; and was the son of God. It was the will of the Father that His first son would fail; it was the will of the Father that His second son would be triumphant. He knew the sacrifice and He accomplished it.

Both calvinists and arminians agree on this also. This really doesn't speak to the issue of determinism in regard to faith. Both sides agree that men need to be made free from their bondage before they are able to place their trust in the gospel. If they are metaphorically blind, they need to be enlightened.

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

If they are metaphorically enslaved, they need to be freed. If they are dead, they need to be made alive. And both sides agree this grace must precede faith. The question is, does this grace cause faith, or merely enable it? Can faith be resisted after enlightenment? I can't help but think of the 10 lepers Jesus healed. All 10 were cleansed, but all did not believe. All received grace, but only one gave glory to God.

And just a heads-up, it's only a matter of time before the mods erase this whole dialog. It would really be a good idea to post a thread in Soteriology.

 

[Ben12]

This is all true but you need to be careful to understand metaphors the way the author understood them. Depraved man is also metaphorically described as sick, blind, enslaved and even married. There is no question that Paul and other N. T. authors were trying to describe fallen man's condition as totally inhibiting. Both arminian and calvinist traditions hold firmly to the doctrine of total depravity (or inability). Both see the necessity of God's grace prior to faith. Arminians see this as prevenient or enabling grace. Calvinists see it as irresistible or efficacious grace.



This is consistent with both arminian and calvinist schemes.



Both calvinists and arminians agree on this also. This really doesn't speak to the issue of determinism in regard to faith. Both sides agree that men need to be made free from their bondage before they are able to place their trust in the gospel. If they are metaphorically blind, they need to be enlightened.

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

If they are metaphorically enslaved, they need to be freed. If they are dead, they need to be made alive. And both sides agree this grace must precede faith. The question is, does this grace cause faith, or merely enable it? Can faith be resisted after enlightenment? I can't help but think of the 10 lepers Jesus healed. All 10 were cleansed, but all did not believe. All received grace, but only one gave glory to God.

And just a heads-up, it's only a matter of time before the mods erase this whole dialog. It would really be a good idea to post a thread in Soteriology.

Good idea about making a new thread in Soteriology. I am not a Armenian nor Calvinist even though I do agree with some of their understandings.

My whole debate I believe the Bible and I see no free mortal agent in its pages. I have searched the scriptures; a word that comes from the mind of man or the traditions of religion and not the scriptures. I have searched and cannot not find the concept of freewill or the word;” free will/freewill” in the Bible except the Freewill Offering in the OT. Now there are a few verses in the OT the hint towards free will and even the gospels towards following Jesus; but that has nothing to do with salvation; salvation is a NT revelation only after Christ death and resurrection. What I see is God drawing/dragging people He has called. I understand and agree how unjust many believe that without freewill the doctrines of Damnation, and eternal torment are so unjust. But like this freewill debate these subjects are already banned. Religion and politics are the only place where knowledge is rejected before it is heard.

 

[Calminian]

Good idea about making a new thread in Soteriology. I am not a Armenian nor Calvinist even though I do agree with some of their understandings.

My whole debate I believe the Bible and I see no free mortal agent in its pages. I have searched the scriptures; a word that comes from the mind of man or the traditions of religion and not the scriptures. I have searched and cannot not find the concept of freewill or the word;” free will/freewill” in the Bible except the Freewill Offering in the OT. Now there are a few verses in the OT the hint towards free will and even the gospels towards following Jesus; but that has nothing to do with salvation; salvation is a NT revelation only after Christ death and resurrection. What I see is God drawing/dragging people He has called. I understand and agree how unjust many believe that without freewill the doctrines of Damnation, and eternal torment are so unjust. But like this freewill debate these subjects are already banned. Religion and politics are the only place where knowledge is rejected before it is heard.

These discussions are not banned, they just aren't the proper for this forum. By the way, are you a universalist? I ask because of John 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” The greek word is elkuo, same word used in John 6:44. If you are not a universalist, as I'm not, then this drawing or dragging must not include causing faith. Perhaps God merely draws men to a place of freedom where they are able to chose.

John expresses a similar idea in John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. Paul backs this up with universal grace in Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

So whatever this drawing, or enlightening, or grace is, it is universal. If faith is not universal, then these terms cannot possibly include faith.

 

[Ben12]

These discussions are not banned, they just aren't the proper for this forum. By the way, are you a universalist? I ask because of John 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” The greek word is elkuo, same word used in John 6:44. If you are not a universalist, as I'm not, then this drawing or dragging must not include causing faith. Perhaps God merely draws men to a place of freedom where they are able to chose.

John expresses a similar idea in John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. Paul backs this up with universal grace in Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

So whatever this drawing, or enlightening, or grace is, it is universal. If faith is not universal, then these terms cannot possibly include faith.

Now if I admitted to being a Universalist I would be considered a non Christian according to FORUM. I am a Christian and do my best not to limit God to a label.