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Why critics of Ellen G. White are "splitting hairs".

Adventist Dissident

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this is flawed logic. If it is god's truth it will survive? Well I guess that Mohommed must be from God because it has survived, and Joseph smith must be true he has survived and the gnositc the must be god people because they survie? How about the catholic chruch it survives it must be God 's truth. Buddism must be true it survives? the natvie religion must be true too, because they survive. survival is not the test of good or evil, truth or error, fiction or fantasy, what is real or un real. God truth will survie, but simply because EGW survives does not mean she is a real prophet/messenger of the Lord
 
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Sophia7

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And how many churches have promoted false teachings for hundreds or perhaps even thousands of years but are still around and still winning converts to their teachings? It's not true that false belief systems always collapse quickly or that God always immediately corrects false prophets and false teachers.

I don't oppose that of which I have no knowledge or experience. I have been an Adventist for my whole life, and I have read and believed many of EGW's writings. I didn't set out to discredit her, and I would prefer to not have to think about these issues at all. Rejection of certain distinctive Adventist doctrines would result in much disruption to my life. However, I have to search for the truth, and I believe that we need to honestly examine the evidence on all sides of these issues, not just condemn anyone who questions the prophetic gift of EGW as "not right" with God.
 
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Sophia7

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But there is a contradiction. You earlier said that the ceremonial law was the schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. She said that it was the moral law in one place and both the moral and ceremonial laws in another place. She was referring to the ten commandments as the moral law.
 
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djconklin

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Djconlkin: It has been roumred that you were on somekind of project that looked into the plagerism accusations of EGW? is that true? if so could you tell us your role in the matter.

I have been looking into the plagiarism question for the past 4 years now. My bibliography currently has 370 items in it. I have looked at ab't 100 chapters in 4 of EGW books (all of Sketches from the Life of Paul for instance). I am currently working on getting possibly 3 articles published in a scholarly refereed journal. Some of my work is posted (outdated too!) at http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/index.html.

I am told that an outside scholar with no axe to grind has seen my work and concluded that EGW was not a plagiarist.

One of the articles that I'm hoping to get published is based on an observation made by Dr. Veltman (back in 1988!): what we need to do is compare authors of the same genre and timeframe with each other to see how they handled the practice of literary borrowing. To the best of my knowledge I am the first and only person to have followed through on that suggestion.

You can dl'd and read the 2,400+ pages of Dr. Veltman's study from here: http://www.adventistarchives.org/documents.asp?CatID=13&SortBy=1&ShowDateOrder=True
 
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djconklin

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You earlier said that the ceremonial law was the schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. She said that it was the moral law in one place and both the moral and ceremonial laws in another place. She was referring to the ten commandments as the moral law.


You are assuming that EGW is an infallible expositor/commentator. Try thinking of her as a quide. Also, remember that Paul used the word "law" (nomos) in some 2 dozen different ways. Scholars have accused Paul of being contradictory too--that may say more ab't their vision of reality than it does ab't reality.
 
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djconklin

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Your timeline is skewed to fit the post-shut-door Adventist perspective.


In what way is the chronology wrong? Was something deleted, skipped over, missing or what?

She held to the shut-door theory from the time of her first vision until sometime around 1851,

In a conversation with Dr. Jerry Moon he mentioned sometrhing about the shut-door only lasting about 6-9 months. He was working on an article on the subject at that time I spoke to him. I'll see if I can get a copy for you.

The vision was wrong.

!!!!!
 
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djconklin

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However, I have to search for the truth, and I believe that we need to honestly examine the evidence on all sides of these issues, not just condemn anyone who questions the prophetic gift of EGW as "not right" with God.

How does one determine if someone is "not right" with God? Doesn't that assume that we are "right" with God?
 
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OntheDL

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The point is not about EGW. It's about Jesus Christ since the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus.

The key issue here is the sabbath and God's law. Much of the protestant world has amended their positions with the Roman Catholic Church. The SDA faithfuls are the only group that still holds fast its position based on the interpretations of Daniel and Revelation.

By debasing and invalidating these testimonies as merely manmade and full of mistakes, the foundation of our interpretation and understanding is stripped away. There would be no Three Angels' Message, there would be no calling-out.

We need to do some soul searching. Who utimately is benefitting from this controversy?
 
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Adventist Dissident

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I know Fred Veltman. He was at PUC in 1990 when I attended. He taught greek. check out his conclusions that were published in Ministery magazine. below
 
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Adventist Dissident

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The Desire of Ages Project

The Conclusions of Fred Veltman, Ph.D

Taken from Ministry, December 1990




Introduction

In 1982, Dr. Fred Veltman, then chairman of the religion department of Pacific Union College, was asked by the Seventh-day Adventist church to analyze the charges of plagiarism brought by Walter Rea and others against Ellen White. Dr. Veltman spent eight years at church expense studying The Desire of Ages (hereafter referred to as DA). His research was printed in the Adventist church's official magazine for clergy named Ministry. Following are Veltman's five conclusions excerpted from the December, 1990, issue of Ministry (pp. 11-14):
1. Ellen White used literary sources when writing DA

The purpose of this fundamental claim, and for many an obvious truth, is to set forth clearly the following facts. It is of first importance to note that Ellen White herself, not her literary assistants, composed the basic content of the DA text. In doing so she was the one who took literary expressions from the works of other authors without giving them credit as her sources 2. Second, it should be recognized that Ellen White used [plagiarized] the writings of others consciously and intentionally. The literary parallels are not the result of accident or photographic memory. In view of the fact that she employed editorial assistants, our clearest evidence of Ellen White's literary borrowing comes from her personal diaries and manuscripts. If we want to establish more precisely the degree of literary dependence, it would be well to study the manuscripts as they come from her hand, comparing both the dependent and independent sentences. Each manuscript should be treated as a whole. When we take the chapter as the basic unit of composition, we remove ourselves several steps from Ellen White's basic work.
The first and fundamental conclusion never fails to elicit a further inquiry as to its implications. Implicitly or explicitly Ellen White and others speaking on her behalf did not admit to and even denied literary dependency [copying] on her part.3 In the light of this study and other similar studies, what are we to make of such denials? I think that any attempt to address this problem should include a serious consideration of Ellen White's understanding of inspiration and of her role as a prophet. Such a study should be contextualized in terms of nineteenth-century views on inspiration, especially within Adventism.
2. The content of DA is for the most part derived rather than original

In light of the data our source studies on the DA text provided, this conclusion might appear to some readers as being unjustified.4 To those who have been told that literary sources played a minimal role in Ellen White's compositions such a statement may be incredible. Obviously this second general conclusion calls for some clarification.
Source dependency involves more than verbal parallels. We must consider not only the DA text as it reads today, but also Ellen White's earlier writings, the thematic structure of her writings, and the content of her material even where no direct literary similarity exists. When we do so, we find that she depended on her sources to a much greater degree than the verbal similarities of the DA text to those sources indicate.
We must not place too much weight upon arguments from silence. But it is worthy of note that the DA material that we classified as independent was often material dealing with topics, not usually covered in a work on the life of Christ. Since our study was largely limited to this type of literature, the reader must consider our estimate of the level of source dependency [plagiarism] in DA as conservative.5
In practical terms, this conclusion declares that one is not able to recognize in Ellen White's writings on the life of Christ any general category of content or catalog of ideas that is unique to her. We found source parallels for theological, devotional, narrative, descriptive, and spiritual materials, whether in reference to biblical or extrabiblical content.
Ever since the recent surfacing of the issue of Ellen White's literary borrowing [ie Walter Rea's publication of the White Lie in 1981] the question How much? has had center stage. Adventists have tended to emphasize the uniqueness, the originality, of the content of Ellen White's writings. But in an ultimate spiritual sense Ellen White always insisted that her works were derivative. She received the information from which she wrote out her views through visions, through some sort of impression upon the mind, and from Scripture. She saw herself as a messenger of the Lord. I believe the issue that concerned her was the authority and truth of her messages--not their originality. For Ellen White, all truth ultimately originates with God.

3. The special character of Ellen White's commentary is to be found in its practical use of Scriptures and in its stress on spiritual realities and personal devotion

Though Ellen White's writings appear to have been largely derivative, they do not lack originality. A fair assessment of the evidence should not deny or underplay the degree of her dependence, but neither should it overlook or depreciate her independence. Despite her lack of formal education and her dependence upon literary sources and literary assistants, Ellen White could write. She obviously had the ability to express her thoughts clearly. She was not slavishly dependent upon her sources, and the way she incorporated their content clearly shows that she recognized the better literary constructions. She knew how to separate the wheat from the chaff.
It may not be possible to identify Ellen White's "fingerprint" in the material that Marian Davis edited, but certain features of her work are readily apparent. She did not approach the biblical text as a scholarly exegete. Rather, she approached it from a practical point of view, taking the obvious, almost literal meaning. She gave Marian Davis the responsibility of deciding where the earlier publication needed improving. In some instances the revision included a change in the order of events to bring her writings into harmony with the text of Scripture.
Another distinct characteristic of her work is stress on what I have called "spiritual realities." She differed from her sources in the emphasis she gave to descriptions of the activities or viewpoints of God and His angels and of Satan and his angels. She appears to be much more informed and at home than her sources when discussing the "other world," the real though invisible world of the spiritual beings of the universe. Her concern for reality is also evident in her replacing the expressions of probability, supposition, and imagination found in the sources with factual accounts given in the style of a reporter or eyewitness.
Ellen White's "signature" is also to be found in the proportion of commentary given to devotional, moral, or Christian appeals or lessons that usually appear at the end of a chapter. This feature would naturally fit the evangelistic purpose that motivated her writings on the life of Christ. It is among her devotional comments and throughout her presentation of what I have called "spiritual realities" that we are more likely to find her independent hand at work.
Ellen White's independence is also to be seen in her selectivity. The sources were her slaves, never her master. Future studies would do well to compare her text with that of the sources and to note how she selected, condensed, paraphrased, and in general rearranged much of the material she used.
Our study raised another question that merits further attention: Was Ellen White indebted to sources for her devotional or spiritual comments? We did find several parallels in one or two works of this type, but our research did not survey enough of these works to establish whether her apparent independence is owing to her originality or to the limits of our investigation. When we extend the survey of possible sources to sermons and devotional literature, we will be able to tell how accurate are our data on her independence and bring into sharper focus just how much of her sections of comment corresponds to or differs from the sources she used.
Finally, regarding content, how do Ellen White's writings on the life of Christ compare among themselves? We can no longer ask either Ellen White or those who knew her to explain what she meant by what she wrote. To be fair to her and to avoid the misuse of her authority, we must be careful how we represent what she wrote and how we establish what her position on a given subject was. My study of her writings on the life of Christ has given me the impression that some of her views changed through time. The very fact that the DA text represents a revision of her earlier work suggests that her writings form a textual tradition.

4. Ellen White used a minimum of 23 sources, including fiction7

Warns Others Against Fiction
"To take up fictitious stories, the fruits of somebody's imagination, is to lay the mind open to the bewitching power of Satan; and this kind of reading creates an unnatural appetite for fictitious stories, from which no moral strength is derived. Fictitious stories leave the mind and heart as destitute of the grace of God as were the hills of Gilboa of dew and rain. Let every one who claims to be a child of God, burn the magical books. If the mind is filled with that which is like to chaff, only chaff will come forth from the mind."

(Ellen White, Youth Instructor, Nov. 23, 1893)
Actually we have no way of knowing how many sources are represented in Ellen White's work on the life of Christ. In addition to the remaining 72 chapters of the DA text, there are two other books to review: Thoughts From the Mount of Blessing and Christ's Object Lessons. These 23 writers are sufficient, however, to answer the questions so many have asked: From what writers did Ellen White borrow? What kinds of books were they writing?
One obviously fictional account is Ingraham's The Prince of the House of David, a work that Albert Schweitzer referred to as one of the "edifying romances on the life of Jesus intended for family reading.8 Ingraham cast his work as a collection of letters written by an eyewitness in Palestine to her father in Egypt.
William Hannah's popular work was designed to be "practical and devotional."9 No wonder that parallels from Hanna are to be found in 13 of the 15 DA chapters we investigated.
The books in Ellen White's library at the time of her death appear to corroborate what her writings reveal. She read widely in works of differing literary type, theological perspective, and scholarly depth.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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5. Ellen White's literary assistants, particularly Marian Davis, are responsible for the published form of DA

The role of Ellen White's literary assistants was not a major concern of the study. But the subject cannot be entirely excluded from any serious attempt to treat her use of sources. Her method of writing inextricably involved the work of her secretaries, especially that of her "bookmaker." A significant part of the introduction to the research report covers this interesting side to Ellen White's literary work.
The evidence suggests that she wrote day by day in her journals, moving from topic to topic as time and opportunity made it possible. No doubt she worked with one source for a while and then moved on to another source and another subject. These jottings would be copied and corrected for grammar, syntax, and spelling when she passed that journal over to one of her secretaries. Several journals would be active at the same time.
From these collections her assistants would compose articles for Adventist journals. It appears that larger publications were produced from collections of materials gathered into a scrapbook. At least that seems to be the way the chapters for DA were compiled. Apparently her assistants at times developed manuscripts from journal entries. Several of the manuscripts consist mainly of excerpts from earlier writings and do not carry Ellen White's signature.
Our comparison of manuscripts with the finished text and our study of the letters Ellen White and Marian Davis wrote that reveal the steps required for preparing the text for publication clearly show that Marian Davis had the liberty to modify sentence structure, to rearrange paragraphs, and to establish chapter length. Ellen White was more concerned about the general content of the book, the cost, and getting the material to the public as soon as possible. She also took a keen interest in the artwork used to illustrate her writings.
I found no evidence to indicate that Marian Davis was involved in the original composition of any Ellen White text. But without the original manuscripts it is difficult to prove that such did not happen with any portion of the text of DA. It might prove helpful to make a stylistic study of the letters of Marian Davis and the handwritten materials of Ellen White. If their "fingerprints" emerge, we would have some basis for determining more precisely the level of involvement Marian Davis exercised in her role as "bookmaker." It may well be that she deserves some public recognition for her services in this regard.

Postscript

Question: How do you harmonize Ellen White's use of sources with her statements to the contrary?
Veltman: I must admit at the start that in my judgment this is the most serious problem to be faced in connection with Ellen White's literary dependence [copying]. It strikes at the heart of her honesty, her integrity, and therefore her trustworthiness. As of now I do not have--nor, to my knowledge, does anyone else have--a satisfactory answer to this important question.

The Validity of Veltman's Research

Remember, Dr. Veltman's comments come from one who is a friend, not an opponent, of the SDA church. Robert Olson, then secretary of the White Estate was asked by Ministry magazine if he was satisfied with Veltman's research:
"I am totally satisfied with this study. No one could have done a better job--no one. He [Veltman] did it as a neutral person would have and not as an apologist." (Ministry, Dec. 1990, p. 16)​
You may view the entire Veltman Report in the General Conferance Archives.

Original Footnotes

[SIZE=-1] 2 I do not claim that her secretaries did not borrow from the sources. My point is that I found no evidence that they composed the text using literary sources, and there is plenty of evidence in Ellen White's manuscripts to show that she did so.
3 See "Personal Postscript" for the reference of the statement from The Great Controversy on this question.
4 See questions 5, 6, and 7 in the first article in this series, "The Desire of Ages Project: The Data," Ministry, October 1990.
5 For example, chapter 56, "Blessing the Children," includes much comment on motherhood, fatherhood, and the family. Until we survey the literature that we know Ellen White read on such topics, we cannot be sure that the sentences of this chapter actually deserve the independent rating we have given them.
6 For a good example of a content analysis, see Tim Poirier's "Sources Clarify Ellen White's Christology," Ministry, December 1989, pp. 7-9.
7 The summary statement in the first article listed 28 writers and 32 sources for both the DA and pre-DA texts. I came up with the number 23 by omitting the duplications between the two textual surveys and, in an effort to be sure that we had bona fide sources, by eliminating from the count all sources providing less than five parallels for any given chapter.
8 Albert Schweitzer, The Quest of the Historical Jesus (London: A. and C. Black, Ltd., 1910), p. 328, note 1.
9 Daniel L. Pals, The Victorian "Lives" of Christ (San Antonio: Trinity University Press, 1982), p. 69. [/SIZE]
 
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Adventist Dissident

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my problem with that is this? why did God just give EGW a vision saying hey, you were wrong about the date seting and I won't be coming for a while. while all the gradual change and dropping entirely? why not just give a vision that clarifies they whole thing? truth is progressive and I undrstand that, but revelation can be instant
 
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OntheDL

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The dating itself is not wrong. What the Millerites and the early Adventists went wrong was the understanding of the cleansing of the sanctuary.

The sanctuary doctrine is the most comprehensive of the whole bible. It takes time to learn and to change mindset.

If you read the vision given to Daniel begins from Dan 7 and ends at Dan 9, it took about 13-14 years for the interpretations of it to reveal completely to Daniel.
 
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djconklin

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check out his conclusions that were published in Ministery magazine. below

I read those and his study. BTW, the above is called an appeal to authority; I prefer looking at the actual facts: see http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/index.html then you can readily see how Dr. Veltman's study fairs.

4. Ellen White used a minimum of 23 sources, including fiction7

He may claim it, but he can't prove it!


Now go to http://lluweb2.llu.edu/heritage/EGWPrivateLibrariesSearch.asp
and do a search for Ingraham and you'll find that she didn't have a copy in any of her libraries. I have analyzed all of the alleged examples of literary similarity between EGW and Ingraham and the "evidence" isn't very impressive for making the plagiarism claim.
 
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OntheDL

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I've always said the law in Gal 3 is the Mosaic law. While the ceremonies pointed to the ministry of Jesus, the moral law points to the character of Jesus.

I do not consider EGW contradicted herself because she emphasized on different aspect of the Mosaic law: the moral law that leads to Jesus and moral law and the ceremonial law are in large part the Mosaic law.

By your logic, I can say Paul contradicted Jesus when he wrote the commandments contained in the ordinances were abolished, Eph 2:15. It contradicts what Jesus said that till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall pass from the law. But Paul was talking about the Mosaic law and the ceremonial law in particular while Jesus was talking His 10 commandments.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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here is another question you won't like: be fore I ask it lets review.

The historicly the sda chruch has said, That the Anti-typical day of atonement started in 1844. that we are now in the day of atonement and that christ is in heaven preparing to cleanse the whole sanctuary of the sins and stop his metioral work.

is that correct? please correct me if I am worng
 
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djconklin

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that we are now in the day of atonement and that christ is in heaven preparing to cleanse the whole sanctuary of the sins and stop his metioral work.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that in the Day of Atonement the sanctuary is being cleansed?
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that in the Day of Atonement the sanctuary is being cleansed?
fine either way I can still ask my question. the cleasing of the santuary is happening right now and it has been happening since 1844. right? I need to be sure that this is the agreed upon understading.
 
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OntheDL

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No. His intercession or meditorial work did not stop. If so, we'd be in real trouble.

Christ by His divine mercy is now both our intercessor and our judge.

I'm going to post this in detail in the sanctuary study.
But in short, all the items in the holy place that symbolize his meditorial work were in the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement. On the Day of Atonement, the high priest brought with him a gold censer into the MHP. This symbolizes the prayer of the saints mingled with His merit. The bread (word of God) that is on display on the table of shewbread in the HP is place in the Ark as the hidden manna. The candlesticks that was made of golden life cycle of the almond tree (bud, blossom & fruit) is presented in the Ark as the Aaron's rod: a dead almond stick that budded, blossomed and produced fruit.

While He's still interceding for those who have yet to be judged, but one day (just prior to His return) He's going to determine enough is enough. Then the intercession is going to cease.

And lastly if you look at the OT sacrifices that pointed to Jesus, Jesus Himself was the lamb, Himself was the officiating priest. So He's 'capable' of taking on dual roles.
 
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