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.I cannot agree with you! I wrote this on another thread. The evidence to the contrary, IMHO, is overwhelming. Please compare the 3 accounts below.
In His discourse in Matthew 23:37-24:2 the Lord warns, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (the second coming). Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
The religious Jews of Jerusalem were about to witness the destruction of their temple. Moreover, that ruination would remain in place from its demolition right up until the second coming of the Lord. The desolation of the temple significantly occurred on the wing of 40 years of idolatrous temple sacrifices (exactly a generation)? The statement “there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” was plainly referring to, and correlating with, the warning He had just made to the religious Jews about the impending destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. It was also a direct reference to Daniel 9.
Matthew 24:1-2 records, “And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
Christ was specifically speaking here of “the buildings of the temple” not the city. You cannot anywhere find that Israel is described as this. This is literal precise detail!
Mark 13:1-2 records, “And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here. And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
In this parallel account, Mark corroborates the thought of Matthew.
Luke 21:5-6 records, “And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
The disciples then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response tom our Lord’s words.
Matthew 24:3 records:
1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”
Mark 13:4 records:
1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled (finished or ended)?”
Luke 21:7 records:
1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”
Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming.
In His response to the first question in Matthew 24:15-22, He spoke of the end of the 40 year probationary period (AD 70), saying, “When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”
Mark 13:14-20 says, “when ye (the disciples) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”
This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.
Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, “when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress (anagke) in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
A comparison of these three accounts will see the correlation in teaching. Plainly: “the abomination of desolation … standing where it ought not” or standing “in the holy place” relates to the Roman soldiers that would destroy the city of Jerusalem. Luke adds meat to the bones, saying: “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” Here is the warning sign to run! There is also the limitation of that judgment so that the Gospel would spread to the nations. The Gospel spread as Jewish families were spread throughout the world.
The Lord tells us that unless this judgment upon Jerusalem was shortened “there should no flesh be saved” (Matthew 24:22). In essence, what He was saying was, there would have been no possibility of Jewish Christians surviving it and consequently no hope of a lost Gentile world receiving this great Gospel if God’s wrath would not have been limited to a short time-period in relative terms. If the wrath of God would have continued to be poured out on wicked man as it was on Jerusalem then mankind would have been finished. But it was restricted to Christ-rejecting Jerusalem.
How can futurists seriously relate these parallel accounts of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, which resulted in the unbelieving Jews being dispersed to “all nations,” to a supposed seven-year end-time persecution of the Church of Jesus Christ? Remember, it was this awful approaching judgment upon the Jews that caused Christ to weep over Jerusalem, crying, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”
I'm not going to presume that you agree with me on this, but I'm just saying my beliefs, in general, are further from Full Preterism than you assume they are (and closer to yours).
I believe the "Exodus" pattern out of the bondage of sin and that death and resurrection are both repeating patterns that will continue until all is restored. We are to be "dying to ourselves" daily (a kind of resurrection), for instance, in order to become "new" and more like Christ. I believe humanity participates with God in His plan of restoration (as we are the Body of Christ when His love is demonstrated through us). So, not ALL is behind us - and definitely not ALL occurred in 70 AD.
There are plenty of other things I'd wish to talk about, if given the chance (but others seem to hone in on this one detail and want to talk about nothing else but this). So I question where the actual obsession is.In Partial Preterist theology the First Advent and the Second Advent take back stage to their obsession with 70AD. It is all about 70AD! It is all they want to talk about
Different from your beliefs =/= "insane" or "absurd".But you have argued that the NHNE are here now. That is insane. You have argued that the resurrection of the just and the unjust occurred and 70AD. This is absurd!
"Pushed you" is certainly an accurate description. It's "confusion" because you're attempting to see my beliefs through your paradigm. That won't work.When I pushed you on what "the age to come" refers to, you made it our current age here now, and at other times it pertains to the intermediate state, and at other times the eternal state. This is utter confusion.
I believe there are two tribulations in Matthew 24, one relating to AD70 and one preceding the Coming of Christ. Premils seem to miss that. They are different in the nature, origin and their focus. There is the great tribulation of God upon Israel in AD70, and the tribulation of Satan upon the righteous at the end.
What that shows is a way that people draw their conclusions based on presumption and have never considered other options.When challenged, Partial Preterists habitually hide behind the statements of their teachers, and are quick to advancing weblinks to their Preterist mentors. This tactic is normally found among the cults. This shows a distinct weakness in their position and a healthy reliance upon man.
I agree with you two on that point.There are not two tribs in the Discourse though. There is only one, and like EWQ has pointed out
Excuse me??There is no question that the Gospel writers, Paul, the author of Revelation and presumably all first century Christians understandably thought the end was imminent. They were simply wrong. It's far less clear that Jesus was wrong, because I strongly doubt he made the "this generation shall not pass away" statement at all. By far the most reasonable explanation is that this is a later insertion for the reasons set forth above.
Yes, there will be a Second Coming at some entirely unknown and unpredictable future date and we should all be ready at every moment,
There is no question that the Gospel writers, Paul, the author of Revelation and presumably all first century Christians understandably thought the end was imminent. They were simply wrong. It's far less clear that Jesus was wrong, because I strongly doubt he made the "this generation shall not pass away" statement at all. By far the most reasonable explanation is that this is a later insertion for the reasons set forth above.
This thread is hilarious. And that's coming from someone on the road to believing in full preterism
When one steps back from the obsessive and doomed-to-failure approach of trying to make sense of the convoluted end-times passages in Mark, Matthew and Luke, as well as Revelation as a whole, I don't think it's difficult to understand what was going on.
Yes, I'm sure Jesus did speak of a future return and the importance of always being ready. But the historical reality is that Mark, Matthew and Luke were all written during or within a reasonable time after the Neronian persecution and the fall of the temple. These were cataclysmic events that certainly would have appeared like the end times (or the ushering in of the end times) to Christians and Jews alike. By far the most plausible explanation is that these events have been inserted into Jesus' mouth in a somewhat veiled way because he obviously would have been speaking some 30-40 years before the events themselves. They are a pseudo-Jesus speaking to the people (the "generation") who have experienced the Neronian persecution and the fall of the temple and who continue to be persecuted as the Gospels and Revelation are circulating.
There is no question that the Gospel writers, Paul, the author of Revelation and presumably all first century Christians understandably thought the end was imminent. They were simply wrong. It's far less clear that Jesus was wrong, because I strongly doubt he made the "this generation shall not pass away" statement at all. By far the most reasonable explanation is that this is a later insertion for the reasons set forth above.
The end-times passages are a convoluted mess because they overlay what was happening at the time they were written on top of what Jesus actually said during his ministry. Yes, there will be a Second Coming at some entirely unknown and unpredictable future date and we should all be ready at every moment, but all the rest can be plausibly explained only by the preterist position. The end-times stuff that dominates the evangelical airwaves is just nonsense, simple as that.
All just my humble opinion and informed $0.02 worth, mind you.
What they apply to AD70 is totally unbiblical and insane. They are indeed fixated with that date, whereas Scripture is fixated with the cross and the Lord's final return.
This is absolutely ridiculous! Such is your obsession with this much vaunted year (AD70), that their advocates and websites can do nothing else but speak on its virtues.
- They have the old covenant ending in AD70.
- They have the new covenant commencing in AD70.
- They have “this age” ending in AD70.
- They have “the age to come” starting in AD70.
- They have “the last days” finishing in AD70.
- They have “the last day” of “the last days” occurring in AD70.
- They have “the day of redemption” happening in AD70.
- They have “the coming of the Lord” arriving in AD70.
- They have “the resurrection” of the just and the unjust happening in AD70.
- They have “the judgment” of the just and the unjust happening in AD70.
- They have the old corrupt heavens and earth being replaced in AD70.
- They have “the new heavens and new earth” appearing in AD70.
You are proving my point. That is the very danger I was warning of! Full Preterism is a denial of the faith , and gross heresy.
I believe C.S. Lewis came to this same conclusion (as have many atheists). R.C. Sproul teaches that's exactly why we, as Christians, ought to know our escatology. It colors the entire Gospel story.There is no question that the Gospel writers, Paul, the author of Revelation and presumably all first century Christians understandably thought the end was imminent. They were simply wrong.
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