Why Christianity?

[]RiSeN[]

Fortunately God's love and grace are greater than any one church, and there are plenty of places where the Bible is correctly interpretted and the LGBT are accepted as they are.

Which is exactly what I'm saying, and you have also just reinforced by your comments, is that they have made their own religion according to their own understandings dictated by their own desires.

I'm not speaking of churches or congregations, I'm talking about biblical truth. Universal biblical truth. Godly, moral, scriptural truths passed down since the beginning of creation.

You claim that these "other places" interpret the scriptures correctly, yet you offer no biblical proof or even evidence that the initial interpretation is faulty except on the grounds that you feel it an injustice that G/L's be excluded because of their behavior.

Since when is "inclusiveness" and "acceptance" of G/L acts the mark of one who is able to accurately expound God's will and word?

You've offered nothing more than;
"I'm right because when I'm wrong it hurts my feelings, and I think God doesn't like hurt feelings, therefor I think God thinks I'm right too. I think God thinks everything I do is right."

Stop masquerading your opinion for God's.

Why not address my other post?

 

[OllieFranz]

Which is exactly what I'm saying, and you have also just reinforced by your comments, is that they have made their own religion according to their own understandings dictated by their own desires.



You've offered nothing more than;
"I'm right because when I'm wrong it hurts my feelings, and I think God doesn't like hurt feelings, therefor I think God thinks I'm right too. I think God thinks everything I do is right."

Well obviously you have ignored all of my posts on the other threads in this forum. That is the only way you can claim that I ever said (or even implied) that "I'm right because when I'm wrong it hurts my feelings, and I think God doesn't like hurt feelings, therefor I think God thinks I'm right too. I think God thinks everything I do is right."

I have never made an issue about my thoughts, my feelings, my lifestyle. I have always just shared what I have learned from God's Word in the Scriptures.

I made a personal assessment in this thread because that is the way you phrased the question in the OP.

I'm not speaking of churches or congregations, I'm talking about biblical truth. Universal biblical truth. Godly, moral, scriptural truths passed down since the beginning of creation.

No, by including the caveat that in answering your OP question, arguing scripture was "non-negotiable" you are the one who made this about churches and congregations instead of Universal Truth.

If I cannot honor and study the scriptures in your church, I have no reason to want to join it. That is and was my point.

You claim that these "other places" interpret the scriptures correctly, yet you offer no biblical proof or even evidence that the initial interpretation is faulty except on the grounds that you feel it an injustice that G/L's be excluded because of their behavior.

I offered no proof because you disallowed the offering of proof in the OP ("In this discussion/debate the issue of the bibles stance is non negociable."). As I said, in my postings elsewhere in this forum I have explained my understanding of the scripture. You don't make a rule and then castigate other posters for not breaking it.

Why not address my other post?

I'm not sure to which other post you are referring, but on the assumption that it is the one following, I don't see how that helps you. It just points out that your church is as closed-minded and exclusive as these other one-issue clubs. Unless you think that your church is the whole of Christianity, that means nothing in terms of God's promises that all who call upon Him will be saved.

(see also Matthew 9:11-12 -- Jesus sought out the disaffected; He didn't castigate them.)

Why want in to a lifestyle that doesn't befit yours? (see OP).

Why would anyone who hates guns want to be the president of the NRA?

or

Why would anyone who loves fur coats and veal want to be part of PETA?

Why?

You don't fit the criteria and are unwilling to change in order to adhere to the "dress code". Your not "in".

Stop masquerading your opinion for God's.

I could say the same to you, but I respect others' honestly held beliefs even when I don't agree with them.

 

[]RiSeN[]

Well obviously you have ignored all of my posts on the other threads in this forum. That is the only way you can claim that I ever said (or even implied) that "I'm right because when I'm wrong it hurts my feelings, and I think God doesn't like hurt feelings, therefor I think God thinks I'm right too. I think God thinks everything I do is right."

I have never made an issue about my thoughts, my feelings, my lifestyle. I have always just shared what I have learned from God's Word in the Scriptures.

I made a personal assessment in this thread because that is the way you phrased the question in the OP.

I apologize, I was unclear in these statements. They were not specifically reffering to you or attempting to put words in your mouth, but to illustrate the G/L view point and attitude.

No, by including the caveat that in answering your OP question, arguing scripture was "non-negotiable" you are the one who made this about churches and congregations instead of Universal Truth.

No, I am not. I'm saying exactly the opposite, that is, that "One body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all." Eph 4:4-6

Therefor there is only one Truth about God for true followers of Christ to which Christ himself attested to when he said that he came "to cause division" so that, as Paul says, "the person approved might be made manifest" among us.

This gospel of 'inclusiveness' that is preached by the G/L is founded on simply isolating verses which speak of love and using them to blanket any and all conduct.

To bad for them that God isnt using fortune cookies to speak to us, there is an entire collection of books and letters He felt we needed in its entirety.

If I cannot honor and study the scriptures in your church, I have no reason to want to join it. That is and was my point.

You mean "if God can't serve my purpose and I have to serve His, .. I'm not interested"?

I offered no proof because you disallowed the offering of proof in the OP ("In this discussion/debate the issue of the bibles stance is non negociable."). As I said, in my postings elsewhere in this forum I have explained my understanding of the scripture. You don't make a rule and then castigate other posters for not breaking it.

Again I wasn't speaking of you personally, but of the entire G/L position which is not founded in the bible.

I'm not sure to which other post you are referring, but on the assumption that it is the one following, I don't see how that helps you. It just points out that your church is as closed-minded and exclusive as these other one-issue clubs. Unless you think that your church is the whole of Christianity, that means nothing in terms of God's promises that all who call upon Him will be saved.

This is how you show that you "respect others' honestly held beliefs even when I don't agree with them"? By insulting them because their beliefs don't include yours? Wow your beliefs are truly open minded.....

What does calling upon the name of God or believing in God mean? And what is God's name?

(see also Matthew 9:11-12 -- Jesus sought out the disaffected; He didn't castigate them.)

So then your saying that homosexuality is a sin since you compare G/L as the disaffected which we should not castigate?

I could say the same to you, but I respect others' honestly held beliefs even when I don't agree with them.

You've shown that you don't. And you haven't answered any of the questions or challenges brought forth.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

And this is EXACTLY my point, thankyou.

If, as you just said, no one can tell you what to believe and do, then why do you claim to be a christian, since Jesus himself , and his apostles likened being one of Christs followers as being a slave for God?

Does a slave pick and choose the time, place and manner of his obedience to his master?

Archaic? Badly translated? Says you.

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever." Heb 13:8

"For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope." Rom 15:4




Im not judging you, because you have already judged yourself.

Why does God say something different to you than He does or has done since the begining of creation to the rest of His slaves?

Don't confuse the one-sidedness of this debate with ranting.

Perhaps she meant that Christianity grew in scope, breadth and tradition, and you did not grow with it.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Why want in to a lifestyle that doesn't befit yours? (see OP).

Mostly because, while YOU see it as not befitting YOUR narrow conception of it, the reality is God includes us all. So it actually fits perfectly.

You don't fit the criteria and are unwilling to change in order to adhere to the "dress code". Your not "in".

Jesus came and pointed out that those who were slavishly following "the dress code" were missing the point. And he offered full membership with benefits to all those whom the legalists marginalized.

If you need to designate "in" and "out" there is absolutely NO QUESTION that you have, like the pharisees, missed the point of Jesus coming among us in the first place.

But the great good news is it's not too late for you to accept the fullness of his love which had been waiting for you ever since the beginning of time.

 

[livingword26]

Accusation? I think not. Take a look at our "bible belt" has taken over the platform of the Republican party in an effort to push chrisitanity on the country. A country that has freedom of religion. i am a christian, and I like you, am outraged at the hyjacking that fundies have done to Christianity. you can be a fundie, and not be politically active of course...but for the religious people that are politically active...let the record show...99.9% of them come from southern, fundamentalist backgrounds.

Actually the republican party has made a weak attempt to appease dedicated Christians, to try to gain their votes. When it comes right down to it, they don't really do anything, just make a lot of noise. So how you can think that Christianity has any more influence on politics than it ever has, is beyond me. The things that are coming into acceptance these days, like homosexual marriage, were always illegal, and immoral. Now it is the liberals and the atheists that are attempting to changes the way our country operates, and what our children are taught, so as to omit any mention of God or of the truth of Jesus Christ.

Isa 5:20-23
(20) Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
(21) Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
(22) Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
(23) Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

 

[OllieFranz]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ChaliceThunder again.

​

 

[]RiSeN[]

Perhaps she meant that Christianity grew in scope, breadth and tradition, and you did not grow with it.

I must be so unsophisticated...

Perhaps thats because of the bibles view on change in regard to God's will;

“For I am Jehovah; I have not changed. And YOU are sons of Jacob; YOU have not come to YOUR finish. From the days of YOUR forefathers YOU have turned aside from my regulations and have not kept [them]. Return to me, and I will return to YOU,” Jehovah of armies has said." - Mal 3:6

"My son, fear Jehovah and the king. With those who are for a change, do not intermeddle." - Proverbs 24:21

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever." Heb 13:8

"For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope." Rom 15:4

Someone else "changed with the times", and Jesus refers to him in John 8:44 and how "he did not stand fast in the truth" but instead "he speaks according to his own disposition".

 

[]RiSeN[]

Mostly because, while YOU see it as not befitting YOUR narrow conception of it, the reality is God includes us all. So it actually fits perfectly.

Repeatedly clicking your heals and chanting your "God loves homosexuality" mantra wont make or change reality.

And I am not the one who continually offers nothing more than unsupported opinions and quips.

You constantly, repeatedly claim to know God's will yet your swelling expressions, when put to the test, dissipate.

There are no references to your "God this" and "God that" other than putting "I think.." in front of them.

Jesus came and pointed out that those who were slavishly following "the dress code" were missing the point. And he offered full membership with benefits to all those whom the legalists marginalized.

Jesus chastised them because they were supposed to be shepherds to his flock, yet they had lost sight of God's will and purpose for His people causing to mislead them and because they had studied the scriptures and could not even see for themselves that Jesus was the Christ.



Funny how your whole argument on homosexuality being acceptable hinges soley on desputes about words and a legalistic view yet you would accuse others of that very thing.

You suppose that because you believe in God and have love for your neighbor that everything is permissible to you as though Jesus came and destroyed the Law. You are fooling yourself.

If you need to designate "in" and "out" there is absolutely NO QUESTION that you have, like the pharisees, missed the point of Jesus coming among us in the first place.

Only according to you, not the bible:

"Do not think I came to put peace upon the earth; I came to put, not peace, but a sword. For I came to cause division" - Matt 10:34-5

Your gospel of everyone being united and righteous is not the same a Jesus'.

“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness." - Matt 7:21-23

Again your claim to a blanket acceptance and condonance is unscriptural.

But the great good news is it's not too late for you to accept the fullness of his love which had been waiting for you ever since the beginning of time.

And yet you have done nothing in the way of reproving and correcting me through the use of that good news as found in the bible. I have only been encouraged to blindly accept your opinion. Are you not loving your brother?

 

[HaloHope]

And this is EXACTLY my point, thankyou.

If, as you just said, no one can tell you what to believe and do, then why do you claim to be a christian, since Jesus himself , and his apostles likened being one of Christs followers as being a slave for God?

Does a slave pick and choose the time, place and manner of his obedience to his master?

Archaic? Badly translated? Says you.

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever." Heb 13:8

"For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope." Rom 15:4




Im not judging you, because you have already judged yourself.

Why does God say something different to you than He does or has done since the begining of creation to the rest of His slaves?

Don't confuse the one-sidedness of this debate with ranting.

I apologise for my lack of response for a while here I have had quite a busy few days. I am not Gods slave, I can certainly be Gods servant, but I do so willingly because God has shown me such love. No because I feel I have too out of fear. My faith is based on love for God now, not concerns for the afterlife or because I feel compelled to out of worry.

 

[HaloHope]

Why want in to a lifestyle that doesn't befit yours? (see OP).

There are plenty of Christians who happen to be gay. We fit into Christianity fine thanks.

Why would anyone who hates guns want to be the president of the NRA?

or

Why would anyone who loves fur coats and veal want to be part of PETA?

Why?

Not comporable to a gay person being a Christian.

You don't fit the criteria and are unwilling to change in order to adhere to the "dress code". Your not "in".

I dont fit in with your criteria its true. But I fit in with Gods. Therefore im not worried.

The position held by our forefathers in the OT and christianity in the NT and most Christians today, through Gods spoken and written Word, is that God views homosexual acts as a sin.
And at no point in time, in any way, have the homosexual 'applicants' succeeded in proving their view as valid and scripturally sound.

Neither have you to be fair. All I see is "nya nya nya.. Im in the super cool exclusive club and im throwing my toys out the pram because you want to be a member too".

All that has be offered against this position is doubt of the same nature as found in Genesis 3:1; “Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?”

I never ever claimed I dont sin. I do and Im sorry, Im just not sorry for things that arent a sin.

Is it really so that God said YOU must not partake of every inherited sinful desire?

?

Is it really so that God said YOU must not partake of every sexual orientation?

People don't tend to take part in "every" sexual orientation just one of a number of them.

 

[Phinehas2]

Under your criteria it is impossible to answer this question. When I came to Christ and felt God speak to me I was accepted entirely as I am, sexuality and all.

I am sorry but Jesus taught that the Holy Spirit reminds us of all Jesus taught, as Jesus NT teaching says marriage is for man and woman and same-sex sex is error it could not have been God who spoke that to you.

 

[HaloHope]

I am sorry but Jesus taught that the Holy Spirit reminds us of all Jesus taught, as Jesus NT teaching says marriage is for man and woman and same-sex sex is error it could not have been God who spoke that to you.

Try and tear down my beliefs all you want, I know what happened thank you very much.

I am sorry you delight in trying to destroy others spiritual experiences. Ill pray for you.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Halohope,

I am not Gods slave, I can certainly be Gods servant, but I do so willingly because God has shown me such love. No because I feel I have too out of fear. My faith is based on love for God now, not concerns for the afterlife or because I feel compelled to out of worry.

Yet Jesus NT teaching shows us that whether we like it or not we are slaves to God rather than unrighteousness becuase Jesus has bough us at a price. We cant help what He has done for us. So to follow Him we must be slaves of righteousness, as we work out our slavation we are free to serve Him and will do so if we love Him. Jesus says if we love Him we will obey His commands

 

[Phinehas2]

Sorry Halohope, but its not just a question of your beliefs, its a question of mine too, and a question of whether the beliefs are from God. Jesus says the Holy Spirit will remind us of what Jesus said and taught. (John 14-16) The Holy Spirit reminds me Jesus taught that man and woman are God's purpose in union Matt 19, Mark 10, and Ephesians 5, and that fornication and adultery break that and celibacy is the alternative. The Holy Spirit reminds me that same-sex union is error 1 Corinthians 6, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1.
Jesus NT teaching also says to test the spirits to see whether they are from God 1 John 4.
So how can you test God told you that?

 

[HaloHope]

Sorry Halohope, but its not just a question of your beliefs, its a question of mine too, and a question of whether the beliefs are from God. Jesus says the Holy Spirit will remind us of what Jesus said and taught. (John 14-16) The Holy Spirit reminds me Jesus taught that man and woman are God's purpose in union Matt 19, Mark 10, and Ephesians 5, and that fornication and adultery break that and celibacy is the alternative. The Holy Spirit reminds me that same-sex union is error 1 Corinthians 6, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1.
Jesus NT teaching also says to test the spirits to see whether they are from God 1 John 4.
So how can you test God told you that?

Ive been through this many times with you Phinehas (and Im about to head out the door for a day out so I shall keep this brief ) . I personally think Romans and Corinthians can be set aside in this debate due to quite obvious translation issues for a start (I know you dont think that but seeing as we arent going to agree on the subject Its fairly fruitless to argue over it. As for all the verses on marriage I still maintain as the maority of people are hetrosexual, hetrosexuality is what shall be addressed. The people writing the Bible were (one assumes) hetrosexual, so of course they will mention marriage as hetrosexual marriage. If gay marriage were unpermissable then imho there would be a verse clearly and bluntly stating that. There isnt.

 

[]RiSeN[]

I apologise for my lack of response for a while here I have had quite a busy few days. I am not Gods slave, I can certainly be Gods servant, but I do so willingly because God has shown me such love. No because I feel I have too out of fear. My faith is based on love for God now, not concerns for the afterlife or because I feel compelled to out of worry.

Im not preaching to you a condemnation of eternal torture in hellfire. I don't believe in that doctrinal rubbish because God is love. And God is just.

I appreciate that you have changed your mind over in that your motivation for serving Him is now healthy and scriptural.

What I am saying to you is to make sure that you don't inadvertently tip the scale too far back the other way that you forget that salvation walks hand in hand with judgment. For if there were no judgment their would be no need for salvation. We are being salved when and only when, we follow Christ's example, and we must be perfect as our Father is perfect. To do so requires that we acknowledge our imperfect state and that we renounce our slavery to sin in all its forms as described by God's word.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Halohope,

Ive been through this many times with you Phinehas

No you havent been through what I wrote, you keep going through what you think without any reference to the scripture or the questions I pose to you.

I personally think Romans and Corinthians can be set aside

yet Jesus NT teaching says obey ALL He has commanded and taught and ALL scripture is useful for teaching. So you are picking an choosing
So its not case of agreeing on the issue its a case of you ignoring God's word and Jesus teaching.

As for all the verses on marriage I still maintain as the maority of people are hetrosexual, hetrosexuality is what shall be addressed.

The pasages dont mention sexual attarction they deal with man and woman, both a man and a woman can be gay or straight. You cant seem to see anything except in terms of sexual desire.

The people writing the Bible were (one assumes) hetrosexual, so of course they will mention marriage as hetrosexual marriage.

There you go again, you see everything in terms of sexual desire. The people writing the Bible were all changed by the power of the Holy Spirit and knew same-sex sex was error.

If gay marriage were unpermissable then imho there would be a verse clearly and bluntly stating that.

there you go again, there is no mention of marriage being straight or gay, there is no such thing a s gay marriage, marriage is bewteen a man and a woman, you simply dont believe the Bible.