Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

Eternally Optimistic · Jan 29, 2012

gurneyhalleck1 said:
I was raised a Catholic for most of my life. My wife and I, around six years ago, started seriously questioning the Catholic Church's claims in several areas, most notably--infallibility, papal supremacy, indulgences, the "treasury of merit," and the gross liturgical abuses we see in our area that run rampant. We have been looking into the Orthodox Church for the better part of 9 months now. The liturgy is first rate, totally unspoiled by modernity and Protestant influences. Their theology is very much like the what the Fathers taught, and despite the black cloud of communism and Islam, Orthodoxy has been able to stay consistent and true to its values and liturgy and traditions all over the world in vast and varied lands.

If I become Orthodox, and there's a strong probability at this point that I will, I will do so kicking and screaming because I have loved and adored the Catholic Church for most of my life. I have tried to give Catholicism every chance, every opportunity, but I'm just not buying into the teachings and historical claims.

I guess my question is this---why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? For the sake of argument, pretend an Orthodox parish is just down your street and so is a Catholic one. Why do you choose Catholicism over Holy Orthodoxy?

I ask this not as a challenge or to argue or smear the Catholic Church. In fact, I'm truly asking for input as to why I should stay Catholic and not go Orthodox? I'm not trying to debate either. Far from it. I'd just like to know your reasons for the choice. I'd like some food for thought.

Blessings to all.

Good question...I certainly wouldn't choose the Catholic Church for the liturgy, the Orthodox win that one hands down...regardless, I would choose Rome for a few reasons:

1. Let's be honest, history would play a part, my family has a long Catholic history, both here, and back in Ireland and France, not the best reason certainly, but I would be lying if I said it played no role.

2. Original sin (or more specifically beliefs regarding it).

3. The Catholic Church is generally more catholic, (and no I am not simply doing a play on words there).

MoNiCa4316 · Jan 29, 2012

I think it's important that we look at doctrine, not compare problems in the church, etc... the Catholic Church has been under a lot of attack from within and without, and if you see problems in your parish (for example, liturgical abuse), that doesn't mean the Catholic Church is wrong, it means it's been under attack in these particular ways. The early Church had to deal with problems too, this is not new, but it never ceased being the the Church. Things were not perfect then either. Only the divine aspect of the Church is perfect.

As for Pope Honorius, - the consensus seems to be that he did not teach this error ex cathedra.. the Pope can be wrong (when he is speaking as himself), just not ex cathedra.

Regarding liturgy, I've found a VERY beautiful reverent liturgy in the Latin Mass.. the FSSP parish I went to, the priests were holy and very dedicated, also kind and knowledgeable. If you're drawn to the Eastern liturgy, there are Eastern rites in the Catholic Church.

I think that all that truly remains is doctrine.. that is what we should look at. Personally I think the Catholic doctrines make sense: including Papal Infallibility, Marian dogmas, Purgatory, and even indulgences.. maybe we could discuss these issues if anyone wants, I saw a lot of great posts in this thread about them I also like how in the Catholic Church, it's clear about contraception and divorce: those are difficult teachings, but theologically they make sense and it's what all Christianity has taught until around a century ago. I like that the Church has not changed its view.

gurneyhalleck1 · Jan 29, 2012

I would like to discuss these things but I don't want to appear to be debating. If I counter an issue, someone might not like it. I want to inquire and struggle with this and get help with these things from fellow posters but don't want to step on toes or debate or break forum rules. I respect everyone in here and don't want to offend.

I have some disagreements with Catholicism for sure and my local experience is just plain BAAD...

MoNiCa4316 said:
I think it's important that we look at doctrine, not compare problems in the church, etc... the Catholic Church has been under a lot of attack from within and without, and if you see problems in your parish (for example, liturgical abuse), that doesn't mean the Catholic Church is wrong, it means it's been under attack in these particular ways. The early Church had to deal with problems too, this is not new, but it never ceased being the the Church. Things were not perfect then either. Only the divine aspect of the Church is perfect.

As for Pope Honorius, - the consensus seems to be that he did not teach this error ex cathedra.. the Pope can be wrong (when he is speaking as himself), just not ex cathedra.

Regarding liturgy, I've found a VERY beautiful reverent liturgy in the Latin Mass.. the FSSP parish I went to, the priests were holy and very dedicated, also kind and knowledgeable. If you're drawn to the Eastern liturgy, there are Eastern rites in the Catholic Church.

I think that all that truly remains is doctrine.. that is what we should look at. Personally I think the Catholic doctrines make sense: including Papal Infallibility, Marian dogmas, Purgatory, and even indulgences.. maybe we could discuss these issues if anyone wants, I saw a lot of great posts in this thread about them I also like how in the Catholic Church, it's clear about contraception and divorce: those are difficult teachings, but theologically they make sense and it's what all Christianity has taught until around a century ago. I like that the Church has not changed its view.

MoNiCa4316 · Jan 29, 2012

Regarding original sin: maybe we could discuss these quotes? what does everyone think of them? can there be Orthodox replies to them? On the doctrine of Original Sin - Church Fathers

MoNiCa4316 · Jan 29, 2012

gurneyhalleck1 said:
I would like to discuss these things but I don't want to appear to be debating. If I counter an issue, someone might not like it. I want to inquire and struggle with this and get help with these things from fellow posters but don't want to step on toes or debate or break forum rules. I respect everyone in here and don't want to offend.

I have some disagreements with Catholicism for sure and my local experience is just plain BAAD...

That's unfortunate that your local experience has been bad.. but it does depend on the parish. I found a great parish last year that was probably the best parish I've ever been too. Usually the more traditional ones are better, in my experience.

I understand about not debating ,- what if you phrased it as questions? then you would not be debating if you're seeking the truth and asking questions, that is different.

Greg the byzantine · Jan 29, 2012

Brooklyn Knight said:
My history may be out of sync with this one...but didn't Rome...sort of tell the Byzantine Empire that the next Pope would be in Constantinople?

Nothing against the Orthodox. If I were ever serious at becoming Orthodox, it would be Greek.

I'll just leave it at that.

Because we have the best food

WarriorAngel · Jan 29, 2012

seekingfreedom said:
"Though we do not attack our Bishops - we pray for them. It goes in hand with not smearing anyone;s good name, especially a rep of Christ.
That is not to say we cannot speak to another Bishop regarding a Bishop.

However; do we dare leave the foundation - Peter and his representatives - his successors who take hold of the keys ?

Thats too bold. And it is leaving the foundation Christ established. It just is. And there were other fathers [early] who said Peter was the foundation.

Some have queried if there was wisdom in leaving the Church - for how does one know if they are in THE Church if they leave the Pope.

Think about it.
And again, pray. Its easier to get caught up in what other men do wrong, it is exceptional to overlook it and remain faithful in spite of it and to give up intentions and prayer for their souls that are so imperfect and must face judgment.

No one should be so greatly hated as to dismiss the danger of their souls. Pray"

it is that type of fear and manipulation that was instilled in me that I now question why I have stayed in the church. Love of God or fear from the Church.

I believe that we should definitely pray for these priests and bishops. However, I think it is dangerous to the souls of these parishioners to stay in a church where these things are happening. I used to believe it, but now that advice scares me.

I don't think the OP is greatly hating anyone, and I don't think he is placing his soul in danger by using all his God given faculties in making his decision to stay or leave.
Where will you Love God and your neighbor the most? Where will you be nourished and strengthened? Where will you find peace and joy? Where will you be able to spread the peace and joy to others? Where is the Holy Spirit leading you? If you are truly searching, you will find where you need to be.
Yes, pray for those who love and hurt you--You can pray for them whether you leave or stay.

I have an option of 4 Churches - one Byzantine Catholic right across the street from the Roman Catholic.
And two in different directions.

Frankly i drive 25 minutes to go to Mass. So if one local is loco - go somewhere else rather than leave the Pope.

And there is nothing wrong with praying for priests souls. It takes some kind of apathy or something to disregard their souls. Why is that soooo scary?

Just saying...

Gwendolyn · Jan 29, 2012

I wish I were near a ByzCath church

My bf lives in the city where I grew up. There is a new Ukrainian Catholic church being built in my old neighbourhood! So if I visit my bf, I can go to church there once construction is finished

Adam Warlock · Jan 29, 2012

Gwendolyn said:
I wish I were near a ByzCath church

My bf lives in the city where I grew up. There is a new Ukrainian Catholic church being built in my old neighbourhood! So if I visit my bf, I can go to church there once construction is finished

That's really cool!

Daniel25 · Jan 29, 2012

because tradition doesn't appear by itself. It needs authority. Otherwise you get a stagnant faith with more bells and whistles. Furthermore, the international structure of catholicism makes it more vigorous and less beholden to various regimes.

The Church withstood the fall of civilization. When catastrophe came to Constantinople, it became Istanbul.

gurneyhalleck1 · Jan 29, 2012

Well that's a no-brainer, man. In my area, there is ZERO coffee hour for Catholics. You go to Mass, you leave. No fellowship, no one knows each other's name. Good and anonymous.

At the Orthodox parish I've attended about 50 miles north of here, they have a spread you can't believe with food from Americans, Russians, Mexicans, Serbs, you name it. The food is AWESOME and the faith discussions, theology talk, fellowship and chats, great stuff.

Greg the byzantine said:
Because we have the best food

MoNiCa4316 · Jan 29, 2012

I think it really does depend on the parish. In my old parish, the FSSP one, I went there before I moved... they have coffee after every High Mass on Sunday, and when I went there one time I had people introduce themselves to me and I made good friends. Maybe it's more of a community because it's a traditional parish.. I found the same thing at the Eastern Catholic parish I've been to, people were very welcoming. I honestly don't think it has anything to do with Catholicism, but rather: size of the parish, etc.

Gwendolyn · Jan 29, 2012

gurneyhalleck1 said:
Well that's a no-brainer, man. In my area, there is ZERO coffee hour for Catholics. You go to Mass, you leave. No fellowship, no one knows each other's name. Good and anonymous.

That's how it is at the parishes I've attended, too. When I was a kid, the parish I attended would have what the priest liked to call "The Feast of St. Timothy of Horton" and we would have Tim Horton's doughnuts after Mass in the foyer

sea oat · Jan 29, 2012

benedictaoo said:
The reasons are because I am not Greek or eastern, but American of western European dissent and I was born a Catholic and we really never heard of the Orthodox Church growing up here down south (even though this Orthodox Church here On Robert E. Lee Blvd. is the oldest EO Church in the country) they are not a big group here. Few ppl know who and what they are.

Hey, I didn't know you were from that area! I used to live out near Lafreniere Park. I miss it so much sometimes.

Anyway, the answer to the question is simply that they've always seemed too ethnically based for my tastes. Being an ethnic or cultural outsider is bearable if the theology seems to be "the one," but I've never seen any theological arguments that convinced me the Catholic Church was worth abandoning for the Orthodox Church.

Having said the above, though, it's complicated because my fiance is Orthodox. We've discussed the issue several times before. Since the man is the head of the household, we'll raise the future kids in the Orthodox faith. I haven't decided what I'll do for the sake of family unity yet.

To the OP: Have you thought about trying out a new parish before you try out a totally different denomination?

gurneyhalleck1 · Jan 29, 2012

It's tough being a good Catholic in my area. Beyond the dreadful novus ordo on steroids Protestant Mass, the awful music, and liturgical abuse, the people are not happy folks. Everyone looks like they're going off to their funeral. A lot of crabby rich people and grumps. No fellowship, bad pastoral care.

But that all being said, after I've delved pretty deeply into Orthodoxy, I just can't get past the awful liturgy. I watched a Mass on local Catholic TV tonight....made my skin crawl.

The Orthodox are all so blasted happy, excited, look deep in exctasy with prayer and they could stand there forever it seems.

I myself find it very hard to get through the Divine Liturgy in Orthodoxy despite its beauty. I don't have the stamina yet despite months of it. After an hour and ten minutes or so, I'm zoning out and the repetition gets to me. I think, perhaps I should just stay Catholic, then I instantly miss the Orthodox stuff.

After Orthodoxy, I miss kissing the cross on the dismissal and kissing the hand of the priest. I miss the constant crossing of oneself, I miss the incense and the beautiful wording, the MALE ONLY altar servers, the male only readers/lectors, the awesome choir, and the priest facing the altar rather than the people.

In Vatican II, when the priest stopped being oriented toward the tabernacle and the Lord of Hosts and rather oriented toward the people, I think it said something.....I don't like it

And the reverence for Mary is higher

It's tough going back to Catholicism.

I think every Catholic should have to go to an Orthodox parish for one month. They'd come back outraged and demand better from our liturgies!

isshinwhat · Jan 30, 2012

I think every Catholic should have to go to an Orthodox parish for one month. They'd come back outraged and demand better from our liturgies!

I agree. I've been lucky enough recently to have a FSSP Parish or a good, orthodox Diocesean Parish to go to. During a period this Summer I had the opportunity to pray at several different Orthodox Liturgies and found them, and the community, beautiful. I also went to Episcopal Compline twice and again, beautiful... But each time there was something missing for me. In the Episcopal Church the errors were as obvious as the music was beautiful, but not so much in the Orthodox Church. There they are hidden quietly away the majority of the time (because of their private nature), and it is those things that keep me Catholic. I cannot accept the idea that divorce and remarriage, contraception, and sometimes even direct abortion can be condoned, albeit often with great gravity, by the Orthodox Church. Some Catholic Priests and Bishops do the same thing, but the Church Herself condemns them, as there is no room for economy in those instances, which are often at the very heart of the war for sanctity in the US and other places of the world... Tu es Petrus... That is why I am Catholic, sometimes despite my local parish.

benedictaoo · Jan 30, 2012

sea oat said:
Hey, I didn't know you were from that area! I used to live out near Lafreniere Park. I miss it so much sometimes.

Me too (near Lafreniere Park) Kinda sorta.

GrowingSmaller · Jan 30, 2012

My main reason for Catolic was I had a "religious experience" after saying Catholic prayers and going to Mass. So I felt obliged to God to go into the Catholic church.

WarriorAngel · Jan 30, 2012

So its about the food....smacked down by Paul too.
Stay home if you are hungry....eat at home. He said.

You travel an hour and one half to go eat and fellowship - rather than find a closer Catholic parish which would be better at teaching Church doctrine.

11 Corinthians 11:34
If any man be hungry, let him eat at home; that you come not together unto judgment. And the rest I will set in order, when I come.

They wanted a feast to enjoy - not just the Eucharist.

Fellowship is ok - we have it at our parish.

BUT people who want fellowship - need to be the proactive ones getting such things started.
Find a decent Catholic parish - preferable Eastern Catholic - and see if what you can do.

Greg the byzantine · Jan 30, 2012

WarriorAngel said:
So its about the food....smacked down by Paul too.
Stay home if you are hungry....eat at home. He said.

You travel an hour and one half to go eat and fellowship - rather than find a closer Catholic parish which would be better at teaching Church doctrine.

11 Corinthians 11:34
If any man be hungry, let him eat at home; that you come not together unto judgment. And the rest I will set in order, when I come.

They wanted a feast to enjoy - not just the Eucharist.

Fellowship is ok - we have it at our parish.

BUT people who want fellowship - need to be the proactive ones getting such things started.
Find a decent Catholic parish - preferable Eastern Catholic - and see if what you can do.

We were just joking around I'm an italophile myself but I don't change my religion because of it.

Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

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