Why can't God send us all to Heaven?

stranger said:

As explained, king of Tyre is a perfectly good name for Satan ... read about Tyre and you will find out why this name applies ... and then you will realise perhaps that no-one else in the garden of Eden fits that name but Satan...

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Then you mean it in a poetic sense. that the letter to the "king of tyre" is meant as a literary parallel to satan as a fallen angel? thats fine but still a guess.

You still have not addressed my point that satan has no ower or authority that God has not given him.... If God is going to bind up satan for 1000 years, then loose him with the intent to "deceive the nations" then doesn't that clearly show that Satan has a boss?

stranger said:

My apologies if I have misread your words then, ambiguities are common enough on the web , hard to avoid...

my comments about flight only arose from your [as I understood it] insistence that spiritual beings have literal wings to fly with... from heaven to earth ... I couldn't make any sense of that idea...

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actually, as my husband reminded me, scripture does tell us the cherubim use one set of wings to fly and 2 for covering, but it doesn't tell us where they fly to or from or what they are covering.

If you believe the cherubim [and seraphim for that matter] are symbolically represented, then I agree with you and apologise for misunderstanding your words...

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what I asked you is what literary rules tell us to believe about the text....do literary rules identify the text to be literal or figurative. Not what you want to believe, but what the literary rules say...

agape101 said:

Then you mean it in a poetic sense. that the letter to the "king of tyre" is meant as a literary parallel to satan as a fallen angel? thats fine but still a guess.

You still have not addressed my point that satan has no ower or authority that God has not given him.... If God is going to bind up satan for 1000 years, then loose him with the intent to "deceive the nations" then doesn't that clearly show that Satan has a boss?

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yes it does, thats a good point

texastig said:

Jesus conveys spiritual truth by means of a parable. I think it was based on real people.

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Exactly

Luke 16:24-26 (KJV)
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Can someone explain to me why those who believe everyone will be saved are trying to convince us? What does it matter?

Preecher said:

Can someone explain to me why those who believe everyone will be saved are trying to convince us? What does it matter?

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It matters what you believe about the character of God.

Tavita said:

It matters what you believe about the character of God.

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If everyone is going to be saved then we can do anything and still be saved, right? We can rape, rob, murder, etc.

Preecher said:

If everyone is going to be saved then we can do anything and still be saved, right? We can rape, rob, murder, etc.

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Though I do not believe we will all be saved, Paul taught about the topic you present...<< Romans 6 >>
New International Version Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,a that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life inb Christ Jesus our Lord.

cuz not ALL of us LOVE God with All of our HEARTS, SOULS, MINDS, and STRENGTH.....

He don't want someone in His abode (in His presence) who dismisses (diss'es) Him like that.

It ain't THAT hard to understand, is it? Is it?

Preecher said:

If everyone is going to be saved then we can do anything and still be saved, right? We can rape, rob, murder, etc.

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I guess it shows the real condition of the heart if we think that way..

Am I only being good so I can get into heaven... or...

am I being good because God, by His Spirit, has changed my heart of stone for a heart of flesh, and I now have the Life of the Spirit of Christ so that I now no longer walk after the flesh but after the Spirit.

If we 'think' we can do anything we like then it shows we have not been delivered from the domain of darkness to the Kingdom of the Son. Whatever we 'like' should be what God likes.

Just because a person believes ALL will 'eventually' be saved does not mean there is no judgment and people do not reap what they sow.

Tavita said:

Just because a person believes ALL will 'eventually' be saved does not mean there is no judgment and people do not reap what they sow.

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So you're saying even the most wicked people will be in God's eternal Kingdom?

Preecher said:

So you're saying even the most wicked people will be in God's eternal Kingdom?

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No, no wickedness IS or SHALL BE in His Kingdom - Shall they be wicked endlessly? Where do the scriptures say that?

Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins; ~and not for ours only,~ but also for the whole world.

From an early Church Father -

"1 John 2:2. 'And not only for our sins,'--that is for those of the faithful, - is the Lord the propitiator, does he say, “but also for the whole world.” He, indeed, saves all; but some [He saves], converting them by punishments; others, however, who follow voluntarily [He saves] with dignity of honour; so “that every knee should bow to Him, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth;” that is, angels, men, and souls that before His advent have departed from this temporal life. " --Clement of Alexandria, Commentary on 1 John 2.2, Fragments from the Latin Translation of Cassiodorus, ANF, Vol 2

Tavita said:

No, no wickedness IS or SHALL BE in His Kingdom - Shall they be wicked endlessly? Where do the scriptures say that?

Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

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just wanted to point out that every man will see salvation, not every man will receive salvation, read the rest of it in context, it's interesting context...

Capuano231 said:

If God loves us all and wants us all to go to Heaven and to be saved, and if He is all powerful why did he make Hell?

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For the disobedient and rebellious. And Hell is something yet to come.

Capuano231 said:

Why did he have to make his son suffer?

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Various reasons can be given for this.

To begin with, Jesus was sacrificed for us. To sacrifice means to give something valuable in the aid of someone (or something) else.

Another reason could be that He came to show us the way to follow: we are to crucify our old nature, make it die and resurrect into a new life. He Himself said: "I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you." (John 13:15) and in another place it says so as well: "Be imitators of God, therefore, as beloved children." (Ephesians 5:1). He died for us, so we are to die for others too. He forgave those who sinned against Him, so we are to forgive others too. These things He came to give an example for us to follow, as He Himself said.

The Scriptures also say that "he was pierced for our transgressions" and that "trough his wounds we are healed" (Isaiah 53). This is another reason for his crucifixion since we are "healed trough his wounds", as the Scriptures say.

Also, why did God choose crucifixion? Because "the message of the cross is foolishness to the ones who are perishing" and "a crucified Christ is a stumbling block for the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles" but God did this for "He chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; He chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong; He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before Him." (1 Corinthians) And being naked, beaten to death and then crucified is actually one of the lowliest this that can be done to you on this earth. But God, as the Scriptures say, chose the weak things to destroy the strong ones, the foolish to shame the wise. This Paul says to be true in Colossians: "...having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross." So He won over them (the wise and powerful things) trough the cross (foolishness and representation of defeat in the world).

Also to show His love. In love there is always sacrifice, and what better way to show His love for us than to sacrifice what He has more valuable?

And other explanations could be given, but they don't come trough my mind right now.

razzelflabben said:

just wanted to point out that every man will see salvation, not every man will receive salvation, read the rest of it in context, it's interesting context...

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Yes, I did read the entire passage and saw the context when I posted. And yes, the 'see' in that verse doesn't actually mean they will receive it, but it also means more than just a casual observance.

Can I ask if you believe that the Father will give all men (and not just men but all that is above, on the earth and under the earth) to Jesus?...

Joh 6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


If Christ has redeemed all men, making atonement for all men.. then do you believe He will fall far short of accomplishing His mission by allowing man, who is dead in trespasses and sins to have the power to thwart Him?

Tavita said:

Yes, I did read the entire passage and saw the context when I posted. And yes, the 'see' in that verse doesn't actually mean they will receive it, but it also means more than just a casual observance.

Can I ask if you believe that the Father will give all men (and not just men but all that is above, on the earth and under the earth) to Jesus?...

Joh 6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


If Christ has redeemed all men, making atonement for all men.. then do you believe He will fall far short of accomplishing His mission by allowing man, who is dead in trespasses and sins to have the power to thwart Him?

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I'm not even sure what your question is here, so let me say this. I believe that scripture is clear that those who believe in Jesus, will be saved. I believe scripture is clear that we are to repent and be baptized. I believe scripture is clear that Jesus has all authority as it is given Him by God the FAther. I believe scripture is clear that we should confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord.

I also believe that scripture is clear that those who do not accept God's gift of the Lord Jesus Christ, will be cast into the lake of fire.

Does that answer your question?

Tavita said:

No, no wickedness IS or SHALL BE in His Kingdom - Shall they be wicked endlessly? Where do the scriptures say that?

Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins; ~and not for ours only,~ but also for the whole world.

From an early Church Father -

"1 John 2:2. 'And not only for our sins,'--that is for those of the faithful, - is the Lord the propitiator, does he say, “but also for the whole world.” He, indeed, saves all; but some [He saves], converting them by punishments; others, however, who follow voluntarily [He saves] with dignity of honour; so “that every knee should bow to Him, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth;” that is, angels, men, and souls that before His advent have departed from this temporal life. " --Clement of Alexandria, Commentary on 1 John 2.2, Fragments from the Latin Translation of Cassiodorus, ANF, Vol 2

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Great!!! We can rape, kill, murder, steal and still be Christians!

Preecher said:

Great!!! We can rape, kill, murder, steal and still be Christians!

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I'm pretty sure Tavita clarified for you that is not what was said....seems to me your twisting things to insight anger, might want to look that up in the forum rules.

razzelflabben said:

I'm pretty sure Tavita clarified for you that is not what was said....seems to me your twisting things to insight anger, might want to look that up in the forum rules.

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I'm pretty sure I explained also. If everyone will be saved then we can do whatever we want to. However that is not true.

Matthew 7:14 (KJV)
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Preecher said:

I'm pretty sure I explained also. If everyone will be saved then we can do whatever we want to. However that is not true.

Matthew 7:14 (KJV)
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

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whatever dude...no matter what side you take, it seems to me that being honest about what another is saying is the first step to loving as Christ loved. Twisting the words of another, even if the other person is wrong, is not the love God has called us to.