Why can't God send us all to Heaven?

One last thing to think about on the matter.

The church tells us that Satan was once a perfect angel of light.
The bible tells us that satan can transform into an angel of light but he was evil to the core from the very start.

Which should we believe here?

Soul Searcher said:

One last thing to think about on the matter.

The church tells us that Satan was once a perfect angel of light.
The bible tells us that satan can transform into an angel of light but he was evil to the core from the very start.

Which should we believe here?

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I am not sure what you call the 'church' , did you have a reference?

but it is Paul who says
"2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

John who says
"John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

'evil to the core' is a phrase I cannot find in my bible ... it would help if you gave some references

But your problem may simply be the common problem that folks have who think in purely logical terms, hyperbole ... just as " all men are sinners" does not imply Jesus was a sinner but is just a hyperbole, a convenient generalisation which applies to overwhelmingly many , so talking of the 'beginning' doe not necessarily imply tht Satan murdered someone the moment he was created... we know that he was twisting the truth already in the garden at the 'beginning' and that lies lead to death for sin... so maybe it is justa question of understanding both the situation and the sweeping use of language when it is used 'poetically' to make a general point ... te bible is immensely poetic , something we lose in translation, but Hebrew's play on words and idioms are simply awesome poetry no man can match God's word for , vastly more intricate than Shakespeare for instance...
dissect it logically and one an get into all manner of logical problems which do not exist anywhere except in the minds of those who think language is not poetic...

Hebrew in particular has but a thousan or so word roots, it is a tiny language, an so forced into its rather beautiful poetry because each word has to be used countless different ways... in fact we cannot now recover most of the idioms necessary [and unnecessary but poetic] for the language has changed, it is not that much like modern Hebrew and idioms are fashions to large extent...

As for it being the end, I doubt that , nor do you say whether you understand that the only king/prince of Tyrus [which has its own history in scripture with many more clues] that was in the garden and walked among the stones of fire , is indeed Satan... but mybe you are stil thinking about that ...

as for cherubs [Heb plural 'cherubim' , not 'cherubims' as in much scripture] they do indeed bear the face of a man just as Jesus and Satan are recorded a doing , also the face of cherub, also the face of a lion [which opens muh scripture ] , and there is much more in the symbology of the cherub statues at the throne of God
and their relation to the temple and the priests, forerunners of the congregation of God ...

I have doubts that anyone can reach the end of the wonders of scriptural imagery/poetry until spirit baptism's complete truth of the future and the past... but who is ready to know themselves and all that now , very few indeed , as Jesus and the saints point out to us... [Matt 7:14, Rev 7:3-8]

nah, it's quite a long way yet I think, and I do not detect the antichrist Satan explicitly ruling the whole earth yet, but a few men do own much of the world and they truly own most souls [lives] through the bigget con trick mankind ever worked [central banking laws whch rob everyone of their just rewards for labour , make the few ever more powerful over billions of blinded/foolish men and religion , and as side effect are destroying our earth in almost every way except God's final way ...

Soul Searcher said:

read the chapter. The bible is clear. There is no mention of satan there.

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I have read it many times, and it is clearly talking about satan.

That is a big strech. It is not about an angel it is about the king and his fall to the grave.

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read it again.

Come on, surely you are not that confused here. Since the begining as defined by the bible. e.g. In the begining God created

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which beginning? In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God....in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...Psalm 111:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Psalm 119:160
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 8:22
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Proverbs 8:23
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

shall I go on....? Which beginning are you referring to?

.... In other words it means he was always, from day one, from the begining, he was never anything else.

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God is eternal, there is no beginning or end to God...

Your Lucifer myth contradicts Jesus himself.

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how so?

It is in error and the bible proves it. All the evidence you need is there you just have to be willing to see what is really there rather than the myth that comes from the John Milton peom of Paradise Lost.

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wow, really, I use scripture to show what I am saying, and you come back with this...this is one of many reasons I don't put any more stock in what is being said, because it isn't about scripture, but rather about your own version of intellect.

But enough of this, you do not seem to be interested in seeing the truth so I will leave you to your myth.

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Whatever, I am waiting for scripture...you are encouraged to provide it.

Soul Searcher said:

One last thing to think about on the matter.

The church tells us that Satan was once a perfect angel of light.
The bible tells us that satan can transform into an angel of light but he was evil to the core from the very start.

Which should we believe here?

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From where I stand, scripture is the only authority we can trust...what authority do you think we should hold to?

Isn't it clear to you what I was talking about? Sometimes it is so frustrating to even attempt to talk to those with such hard heads and argumentative stances.

The begining is the begining period. I will not continue to try to explain what it means as you seem to be dead set on re-interpreting the words of Jesus to make your own myth seem true.

As for the chapter that supposedly refers to satan show me where it says satan, show me where the bible ever says that satan was once called lucifer. Again Jesus said that satan was a liar and a murderer from the begining that there is no truth in him. Clearly Jesus is not telling us that he was a perfect angel who went off on a tangent and became the most evil thing in existance but rather he was always that way. And btw in case you can't figure it out on your own. Something that was once a perfect angel would never become satan as such would mean it was far from perfect in the begining.

Scripture tells us that Satan was always evil, It does not tell us that he was once a good guy and later became evil. It does tell us that he can transform into an angel of light not that he once was an angel of light. It seems you give authority to the church or interpretations of others rather than the bible itself.

It is clear that there is no point in continuing an attempt to show you the light here as from what I see the blinders are working well.

Soul Searcher said:

Isn't it clear to you what I was talking about? Sometimes it is so frustrating to even attempt to talk to those with such hard heads and argumentative stances.

The begining is the begining period. I will not continue to try to explain what it means as you seem to be dead set on re-interpreting the words of Jesus to make your own myth seem true.

As for the chapter that supposedly refers to satan show me where it says satan, show me where the bible ever says that satan was once called lucifer. Again Jesus said that satan was a liar and a murderer from the begining that there is no truth in him. Clearly Jesus is not telling us that he was a perfect angel who went off on a tangent and became the most evil thing in existance but rather he was always that way. And btw in case you can't figure it out on your own. Something that was once a perfect angel would never become satan as such would mean it was far from perfect in the begining.

Scripture tells us that Satan was always evil, It does not tell us that he was once a good guy and later became evil. It does tell us that he can transform into an angel of light not that he once was an angel of light. It seems you give authority to the church or interpretations of others rather than the bible itself.

It is clear that there is no point in continuing an attempt to show you the light here as from what I see the blinders are working well.

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Hmmm... explain this then ...

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;

There were not that many in Eden , and one was Satan, the serpent...

So just perhaps it's you who is not listening

there really is no problem in Satan being created as perfect in the beginning period and then iniquity being found in him in the beginning period ... it is your wanting to read more into the words , maybe expressing hatred for Satan instead of loving your enemies [cos' they alone perfect your love or not, not your friends]

satan truly is the only king.prince of Tyrus who ever was in the garden of Eden, and one should realise there are but two covering cherubs and much is said about their rather obviously important roles as messengers [angels] of God ... plenty of collateral evidence in scripture to explain itself [but you have been mislead by so-called 'scholars' who are but sinners , and like most folks believe what they want to believe and then find how to fit words to suit those beliefs... one truly can't iunderstand sripture any other ways than by getting the truth from God [spirit baptism, without which no-one goes anywhere but hades as a sinner, not a saint] or by bit by bit re-assembling what the scripture says from ALL of it as a whole, leaving none out [but sadly we don't even have it all and it ha been edited , and folks really don't even know the nacient languages that well, and many translators begin their work wiith the religious bias of their time ... but fortunately documented religious fashions of the time]

so what is your explanation of the king of Tyrus being in the garden of Eden ? [which incidentally Paul identifies as paradise, the third heaven, not of this earth]

stranger said:

Hmmm... explain this then ...

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;

There were not that many in Eden , and one was Satan, the serpent...

So just perhaps it's you who is not listening

there really is no problem in Satan being created as perfect in the beginning period and then iniquity being found in him in the beginning period ... it is your wanting to read more into the words , maybe expressing hatred for Satan instead of loving your enemies [cos' they alone perfect your love or not, not your friends]

satan truly is the only king.prince of Tyrus who ever was in the garden of Eden, and one should realise there are but two covering cherubs and much is said about their rather obviously important roles as messengers [angels] of God ... plenty of collateral evidence in scripture to explain itself [but you have been mislead by so-called 'scholars' who are but sinners , and like most folks believe what they want to believe and then find how to fit words to suit those beliefs... one truly can't iunderstand sripture any other ways than by getting the truth from God [spirit baptism, without which no-one goes anywhere but hades as a sinner, not a saint] or by bit by bit re-assembling what the scripture says from ALL of it as a whole, leaving none out [but sadly we don't even have it all and it ha been edited , and folks really don't even know the nacient languages that well, and many translators begin their work wiith the religious bias of their time ... but fortunately documented religious fashions of the time]

so what is your explanation of the king of Tyrus being in the garden of Eden ? [which incidentally Paul identifies as paradise, the third heaven, not of this earth]

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Actually, there is plenty wrong with the idea of Satan being created perfect until iniquity was found in Him.

If He was perfect then iniquity wouldn't have been found in Him period!

If something is perfect it can't all of a sudden become imperfect can it.

Iniquity flows from out of the heart and so for there to be iniquity in the first place there must already be sin in the heart which would mean imperfection.

The idea that someone can be perfect and then become imperfect is absolutely nonsensical!

martymonster said:

Actually, there is plenty wrong with the idea of Satan being created perfect until iniquity was found in Him.

If He was perfect then iniquity wouldn't have been found in Him period!

If something is perfect it can't all of a sudden become imperfect can it.

Iniquity flows from out of the heart and so for there to be iniquity in the first place there must already be sin in the heart which would mean imperfection.

The idea that someone can be perfect and then become imperfect is absolutely nonsensical!

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It is not something we can comprehend but why do we have to understand everything about the mystery of iniquity. Iniquity is a mystery. It is a mystery how to devil was created perfect and then iniquity was found in him. It doesn't seem to make sense. But it is something we cannot understand now. It is a question we should be looking to ask God in heaven. However, because we cannot understand something, it doesn't mean it is not true. The bible did say that he was perfect in all his ways until iniquity was found in him.

Soul Searcher said:

Isn't it clear to you what I was talking about? Sometimes it is so frustrating to even attempt to talk to those with such hard heads and argumentative stances.

The begining is the begining period. I will not continue to try to explain what it means as you seem to be dead set on re-interpreting the words of Jesus to make your own myth seem true.

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I simply asked which beginning and cited scripture as having different beginnings...which beginning are you referring to?

As for the chapter that supposedly refers to satan show me where it says satan, show me where the bible ever says that satan was once called lucifer.

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since I didn't claim that it did, why would you ask me to cite someone elses claim? Shouldn't I only be responsible for the claims I make?

Again Jesus said that satan was a liar and a murderer from the begining that there is no truth in him. Clearly Jesus is not telling us that he was a perfect angel who went off on a tangent and became the most evil thing in existance but rather he was always that way. And btw in case you can't figure it out on your own. Something that was once a perfect angel would never become satan as such would mean it was far from perfect in the begining.

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Huh???? this doesn't make any sense....

Scripture tells us that Satan was always evil, It does not tell us that he was once a good guy and later became evil.

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who made the claim otherwise? I'm really confused, you must be arguing with someone other than me, and quoting me as if you are arguing something with me.

It does tell us that he can transform into an angel of light not that he once was an angel of light. It seems you give authority to the church or interpretations of others rather than the bible itself.

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I don't even know what you think I am saying, it really, seriously seems like you are arguing someone else other than me, but posting my quote as your backboard.

It is clear that there is no point in continuing an attempt to show you the light here as from what I see the blinders are working well.

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especially since you aren't responding to me but to some image you have of a different argument.

PROPHECYKID said:

It is not something we can comprehend but why do we have to understand everything about the mystery of iniquity. Iniquity is a mystery. It is a mystery how to devil was created perfect and then iniquity was found in him. It doesn't seem to make sense. But it is something we cannot understand now. It is a question we should be looking to ask God in heaven. However, because we cannot understand something, it doesn't mean it is not true. The bible did say that he was perfect in all his ways until iniquity was found in him.

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One of the first things someone will say when they believe in something that doesn't make sense is "Oh it's a mystery" or some such thing like that.

The bible never says that Satan was once a perfect being and in fact Jesus says the complete opposite.

See what happens when We cherry pick the parts We want to take literally?





Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


There you go, He was a murderer from the beginning, the beginning of what? the beginning of creation, this creation, and He abode not in the truth, ever!


Eze 28:11 And the Word of Jehovah was to me, saying,
Eze 28:12 Son of man, lift up a lament over the king of Tyre, and say to him, So says the Lord Jehovah: You seal the measure, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 You have been in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering; the ruby, the topaz, and the jasper, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the turquoise, and the carbuncle, and gold; the workmanship of your tambourines and of your flutes in you. In the day you were created, they were prepared.
Eze 28:14 You were the anointed cherub that covers, and I had put you in the holy heights of God, where you were. You walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, until iniquity was found in you.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of your trade, they filled your midst with violence, and you sinned. So I cast you defiled from the height of God, and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from among the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. I have cast you to the ground. I will put you before kings, that they may see you.
Eze 28:18 By the host of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trade, you have defiled your holy places. So I brought a fire from your midst and it shall devour you, and I will give you for ashes on the earth in the sight of all who see you.
Eze 28:19 All who know you among the peoples shall be appalled at you. You shall be terrors, and you will not be forever.


The thing that makes Me laugh about orthodox Churchianity is that if they don't like what your saying they will say that your taking things out of context, yet practically every orthodox christian on the planet thinks that this verse is talking about Satan.

Since when is Satan the King of Tyre?

This verse is paralleling someone but it's not the Devil otherwise what Jesus said about Him being a murderer from the beginning and having never abode in the truth is a lie!

martymonster said:

Let's highlight some other parts and see if it isn't possible for the passage to be talking about both, as in figurative speak comparing the two...

Eze 28:11 And the Word of Jehovah was to me, saying,
Eze 28:12 Son of man, lift up a lament over the king of Tyre, and say to him, So says the Lord Jehovah: You seal the measure, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 You have been in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering; the ruby, the topaz, and the jasper, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the turquoise, and the carbuncle, and gold; the workmanship of your tambourines and of your flutes in you. In the day you were created, they were prepared.
Eze 28:14 You were the anointed cherub that covers, (note it was in Eden and a cherub that covers, we know that cherub is one kind of angel)and I had put you in the holy heights of God, where you were. You walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, until iniquity was found in you.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of your trade, they filled your midst with violence, and you sinned. So I cast you defiled from the height of God, and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from among the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. I have cast you to the ground. I will put you before kings, that they may see you.
Eze 28:18 By the host of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trade, you have defiled your holy places. So I brought a fire from your midst and it shall devour you, and I will give you for ashes on the earth in the sight of all who see you.
Eze 28:19 All who know you among the peoples shall be appalled at you. You shall be terrors, and you will not be forever.

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Now, you highlighted one phrase in blue that could suggest a man and nothing more, yet highlighted in purple are 5+ phrases that describe a cherub (angel) that was fallen, so logically, using literary rules, the context is either angelic or a comparison of both a specific man and a specific angelic being.

compare this then Literarily to Rom. 5:12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

Romans 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

and on and on and on we can go, the point being that comparison is not out of context with scripture, it is a tool that is used often times in scripture, so why should we then assume it is not used here?

razzelflabben said:

Now, you highlighted one phrase in blue that could suggest a man and nothing more, yet highlighted in purple are 5+ phrases that describe a cherub (angel) that was fallen, so logically, using literary rules, the context is either angelic or a comparison of both a specific man and a specific angelic being.

compare this then Literarily to Rom. 5:12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

Romans 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

and on and on and on we can go, the point being that comparison is not out of context with scripture, it is a tool that is used often times in scripture, so why should we then assume it is not used here?

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Nowhere in scripture is there anything to suggest that the King of Tyre is Satan in type, it simply isn't there.

The only way that you can make that passage say that God is talking about Lucifer's fall is to take the passage literally and interpret the verse of itself, which Peter tells us is simply not on.


As for the verses you mentioned from Roman's, I'm not really sure what you getting at there.

martymonster said:

Nowhere in scripture is there anything to suggest that the King of Tyre is Satan in type, it simply isn't there.

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not exactly what I meant, but hey, that wouldn't be the first time...

The only way that you can make that passage say that God is talking about Lucifer's fall is to take the passage literally and interpret the verse of itself, which Peter tells us is simply not on.

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okay, I'm not totally sure what you mean by this, but by all means show us the literary rules that tell us this passage means anything other than we have shown already....show the literary rules that mark this as not literal....I'm really interested in that info. Please don't take my inquisition as anything it is not intended (usually when I ask people such questions they get all offended and upset)

As for the verses you mentioned from Roman's, I'm not really sure what you getting at there.

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What I am suggesting is that scripture often times compares one thing with another, it also uses figurative lang. We have no literary reason to assume that this passage is any different from the other passages that use figurative lang. to compare two things.

razzelflabben said:

not exactly what I meant, but hey, that wouldn't be the first time... okay, I'm not totally sure what you mean by this, but by all means show us the literary rules that tell us this passage means anything other than we have shown already....show the literary rules that mark this as not literal....I'm really interested in that info. Please don't take my inquisition as anything it is not intended (usually when I ask people such questions they get all offended and upset)
What I am suggesting is that scripture often times compares one thing with another, it also uses figurative lang. We have no literary reason to assume that this passage is any different from the other passages that use figurative lang. to compare two things.

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First of all, lets have a look at this these rule for interpreting scripture.


1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Note that is not comparing spiritual with physical or physical with physical but spiritual with spiritual.


2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Well that makes sense if We are supposed to compare spiritual with spiritual.

2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.


Notice that it says rightly dividing the word of truth.
So far that is in perfect harmony with the other verses.


Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.


Notice that it says here a little and there a little and not all together in context.


For what you are saying about the King of Tyre to be true then the rule of interpretation would have to be comparing physical with spiritual.

Satan is a spirit being but He is still physically Satan, so you need to know the King of Tyre is otherwise you will be comparing physical with spiritual.

Since I know that every word must apply to myself because We must live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God then I know the King of Tyre much spiritually be Me.


Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


Notice that He does say every word.

martymonster said:

First of all, lets have a look at this these rule for interpreting scripture.


1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Note that is not comparing spiritual with physical or physical with physical but spiritual with spiritual.

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note also that it is the HS, HG (in some translations) that teaches us, it's not man's logic, but God alone that teaches and reveals things to us, something I already said, but thanks for quoting a scripture, sometimes I forget how many people are just reading.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Well that makes sense if We are supposed to compare spiritual with spiritual.

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yep and also tells us about the vital importance of the totality of scripture, something else included in literary rules...context.

2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.


Notice that it says rightly dividing the word of truth.
So far that is in perfect harmony with the other verses.

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Right, how do we know we are rightly dividing the word? We allow the HS to teach us. We allow the things of the spirit to be interpreted by faith. And we study the word, to study means (among other things) word study, context, translation, culture, etc. etc. etc. (literary rules included here)

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.


Notice that it says here a little and there a little and not all together in context.

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wow, that is really what you think it means, you really think it means that context is not important? Wow...here's a hint for you. All education comes precept upon precept, line upon line, it basically means that we take one concept, learn and understand it, then move onto something more difficult. For example, we learn to add before we learn to multiply. Addition being a precept, multiplying the next precept. It doesn't mean we throw away context, it means that context clarifies things so that our precepts are clear and accurate. Wow!

For what you are saying about the King of Tyre to be true then the rule of interpretation would have to be comparing physical with spiritual.

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you mean like physical disobedience (sin) leading to death (spiritual)? Look, scripture often uses the physical to illustrate a spiritual point. Look at the prodigal son, or the Good Samaritan, or the talents. These are all illustrations from our physical world whose intent is to bestow upon us truth about our spiritual world. It doesn't mean our spirits don't interpret the spiritual truth, they do, but the physical world can help us understand the spiritual world. We see it most in the parables.

Satan is a spirit being but He is still physically Satan, so you need to know the King of Tyre is otherwise you will be comparing physical with spiritual.

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you just compared satan (spiritual) to satan (physical) after saying we can't do that....so which is it, can we compare spiritual satan with physical satan or not?

Since I know that every word must apply to myself because We must live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God then I know the King of Tyre much spiritually be Me.

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?????

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


Notice that He does say every word.

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so now, everything in scripture is about you? What of the passages talking about Jesus? What about the passage that says that Jesus is the only way, is it to about you and not Jesus?

martymonster said:

Actually, there is plenty wrong with the idea of Satan being created perfect until iniquity was found in Him.

If He was perfect then iniquity wouldn't have been found in Him period!

If something is perfect it can't all of a sudden become imperfect can it.

Iniquity flows from out of the heart and so for there to be iniquity in the first place there must already be sin in the heart which would mean imperfection.

The idea that someone can be perfect and then become imperfect is absolutely nonsensical!

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So say you in your understanding, but as you see written, God says otherwise ... you can disagree with God if you wish , but in the end He will persuade even you of His meaning ...

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

you might like to read Job to see how deeply a man can misunderstand God and yet God will reveal all truth to all flesh in the end [Joel 2:28, John 16:13] , so there is time enough for you to accept what is currently nonsense to your mind ... by seeing how you misunderstood it ... God will not contend for ever, but will do so long enough...

razzelflabben said:

I have heard this argument before, but what it lacks is evidence. consider Strong's literal translation of the word

Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon


Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon


In addition, other passages were added to the post that show a clearer meaning...in fact, when I do a keyword search, only one passage comes up with the name lucifer, but several for satan and devil as well as angels, we also have nephalim, in fact, when we compare Strongs literal translation with the translation for lucifer, it seems funny they are so close in meaning if they are totally different things. Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

I mean, really, you can believe what you want, but a study of it, is pretty convincing. Also check this out...Nephilim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaRev. 12
Jude 1: 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.



Is yet another passage that supports what I said before...so why not deal with the comment I made about hells original purpose rather than off on this tangent? Just curious....

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"Lucifer" is a description from the latin.... Luciferous- latin for shining one. the point that it has latin roots should cause you to discard that rendering immediately. However, even if you keep it- it is still not a proper name.

The story that satan is a fallen angel named lucifer is just a story. there is more evidence that satan was an adversary from the beginning. Jesus said "you are of your father, the devil, who was a man-killer from the beginning." Not to mention that God "created the waster to destroy.' And it is obvious that satan is not a demigod- in that he is not autonomous. He needs permission from God (Book of Job) and he is bound up and loosed at God's choosing. (revelation) where God binds satan up for a thousand years only to loose him "to deceive the nations.' in this case the scriptures show that God uses satan for purposes like "deceiving the nations.'

Satan is not a demigod. He is underneath the one true God and has no power or authority that has not been given him....

martymonster said:

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened.


It's a good passage that one.

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I thought it said "I have decided to...." anyway, thanks- I don't have to look it up now.

stranger said:

Hmmm... explain this then ...

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;

There were not that many in Eden , and one was Satan, the serpent...

So just perhaps it's you who is not listening

there really is no problem in Satan being created as perfect in the beginning period and then iniquity being found in him in the beginning period ... it is your wanting to read more into the words , maybe expressing hatred for Satan instead of loving your enemies [cos' they alone perfect your love or not, not your friends]

satan truly is the only king.prince of Tyrus who ever was in the garden of Eden, and one should realise there are but two covering cherubs and much is said about their rather obviously important roles as messengers [angels] of God ... plenty of collateral evidence in scripture to explain itself [but you have been mislead by so-called 'scholars' who are but sinners , and like most folks believe what they want to believe and then find how to fit words to suit those beliefs... one truly can't iunderstand sripture any other ways than by getting the truth from God [spirit baptism, without which no-one goes anywhere but hades as a sinner, not a saint] or by bit by bit re-assembling what the scripture says from ALL of it as a whole, leaving none out [but sadly we don't even have it all and it ha been edited , and folks really don't even know the nacient languages that well, and many translators begin their work wiith the religious bias of their time ... but fortunately documented religious fashions of the time]

so what is your explanation of the king of Tyrus being in the garden of Eden ? [which incidentally Paul identifies as paradise, the third heaven, not of this earth]

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Sarcasm. If the serpent in the garden of Eden was satan- then what would be the point of telling him that "he was in eden?" Wouldn't he know that?

I think the point is that he has tried to make himself a god and in doing so sealed his fate in vanity and arrogance. "you ware in eden" is sarcasm which means: you were not in Eden. You are not god....

read all the other chapters- all you find is prophecies against other lands and rulers. all the sudden you want to use figurative language and have it mean that he was not talking about a particular ruler but Satan? what about the King of Tyre? There was a real place called Tyre and it had real rulers....

agape101 said:

Sarcasm. If the serpent in the garden of Eden was satan- then what would be the point of telling him that "he was in eden?" Wouldn't he know that?

I think the point is that he has tried to make himself a god and in doing so sealed his fate in vanity and arrogance. "you ware in eden" is sarcasm which means: you were not in Eden. You are not god....

read all the other chapters- all you find is prophecies against other lands and rulers. all the sudden you want to use figurative language and have it mean that he was not talking about a particular ruler but Satan? what about the King of Tyre? There was a real place called Tyre and it had real rulers....

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can you please show places in scripture where God uses sarcasm to make a point...thanks....I personally can't recall any precident that would suggest this can be read as sarcasm, but admittedly I might be forgetting something, what scriptures show God using sarcasm?