Why Bother ( A Devil's Advocate question )

[Gal328]

Why Bother litsening to what Jesus says in the gospels if the dispinsation of Grace period Starts with Paul?

 

[revduane]

Why Bother litsening to what Jesus says in the gospels if the dispinsation of Grace period Starts with Paul?

Hey Bro.

That is because there is no dispensation. God can and will and has used many a Christian to do His will, that rivals, and even exceeds Paul's ministry.

It sometimes seems like the popular belief, that God wants to use us as the denominational hackee sack, and kick us around for His Good pleasure.

We as believers are never promised a rose garden, and there is no promise of tomorrow, and we will go through persecutions for the sake of Jesus.

But there are Christians, and religious folk that believe that suffering is a worthy cause to show humility, and it is a false humility.

We are called more than conquerers, yet it is believed by many that God puts us through the fire to give us humility. All I can say is balderdash!

We go through seasons to test our faith, and we go through problems, and we figure out our solutions with total dependence on God. This is true humility. If we don't go through rough times, then how can we learn to go through tough times?

Paul said that God delivered him out of all of his afflictions. 2 Tim. 3:10-11

Paul could have never done the ministry that was put before him, if it wasn't for supernatural power. And we cannot go through our tests, and come out in good shape, if we don't call upon the supernatural power of God.

So many believe that they are so unworthy. But if they or we as a collective are so unworthy, then why are we made TOTALLY righteous by the Blood of Jesus?

You posed a good question.

When we can get out of wearing humility around like a show piece, and quit trying to wear faith like a badge to show our faith, and start to act upon, and be doers of the Word, then we can stop saying to ourselves, I must be humble, I must be humble. Start to trust God and His promises. Become dependent on God, and show our love for Him, by what we do, and what we do for others, and realize that living for God isn't a guru postion, and that God promotes from within, and He can't trust you with alot, if He can't trust you with a little.

No. There is no dispensation.

God uses us today, if not more than He did people 2,000 years ago.

And the problem with religion, and unsound doctrine is. We want to win others at times to our denomination, more than we want to lead them to Jesus.

How many churches are out there, that have people that are devoted, and loyal, and dependable, and so lost that they wouldn't recognize a pulling of the Holy Spirit, if He physically dragged them to the alter.

The problem with dispensationalism is, when a person believes that God doesn't use us like He did others in the NT, it gives them a sense of needing to be good enough by their works, because they don't believe or trust in God for real power to overcome obstacles, and be succesfully succesful, in their ministry. And you know what happens to christians that rely upon their own power? They fall, into bitterness, denial, anger, hurt, and they will argue the live long day to prove they are right.

Good post.

Rev.

 

[ThreeAM]

Hey Bro.

That is because there is no dispensation. God can and will and has used many a Christian to do His will, that rivals, and even exceeds Paul's ministry.

It sometimes seems like the popular belief, that God wants to use us as the denominational hackee sack, and kick us around for His Good pleasure.

We as believers are never promised a rose garden, and there is no promise of tomorrow, and we will go through persecutions for the sake of Jesus.

But there are Christians, and religious folk that believe that suffering is a worthy cause to show humility, and it is a false humility.

We are called more than conquerers, yet it is believed by many that God puts us through the fire to give us humility. All I can say is balderdash!

We go through seasons to test our faith, and we go through problems, and we figure out our solutions with total dependence on God. This is true humility. If we don't go through rough times, then how can we learn to go through tough times?

Paul said that God delivered him out of all of his afflictions. 2 Tim. 3:10-11

Paul could have never done the ministry that was put before him, if it wasn't for supernatural power. And we cannot go through our tests, and come out in good shape, if we don't call upon the supernatural power of God.

So many believe that they are so unworthy. But if they or we as a collective are so unworthy, then why are we made TOTALLY righteous by the Blood of Jesus?

You posed a good question.

When we can get out of wearing humility around like a show piece, and quit trying to wear faith like a badge to show our faith, and start to act upon, and be doers of the Word, then we can stop saying to ourselves, I must be humble, I must be humble. Start to trust God and His promises. Become dependent on God, and show our love for Him, by what we do, and what we do for others, and realize that living for God isn't a guru postion, and that God promotes from within, and He can't trust you with alot, if He can't trust you with a little.

No. There is no dispensation.

God uses us today, if not more than He did people 2,000 years ago.

And the problem with religion, and unsound doctrine is. We want to win others at times to our denomination, more than we want to lead them to Jesus.

How many churches are out there, that have people that are devoted, and loyal, and dependable, and so lost that they wouldn't recognize a pulling of the Holy Spirit, if He physically dragged them to the alter.

The problem with dispensationalism is, when a person believes that God doesn't use us like He did others in the NT, it gives them a sense of needing to be good enough by their works, because they don't believe or trust in God for real power to overcome obstacles, and be succesfully succesful, in their ministry. And you know what happens to christians that rely upon their own power? They fall, into bitterness, denial, anger, hurt, and they will argue the live long day to prove they are right.

Good post.

Rev.

 

[Aziza01]

Why Bother litsening to what Jesus says in the gospels if the dispinsation of Grace period Starts with Paul?

Because it didn't start with Paul.

 

[Lpspider]

Because it didn't start with Paul.

Agreed.

 

[GraceInHim]

I love the whole Bible from beginning to end, think the psalms are my fav.. Paul's words are also awesome, love John's the most

 

[Gal328]

Hey Bro.

That is because there is no dispensation. God can and will and has used many a Christian to do His will, that rivals, and even exceeds Paul's ministry.

It sometimes seems like the popular belief, that God wants to use us as the denominational hackee sack, and kick us around for His Good pleasure.

We as believers are never promised a rose garden, and there is no promise of tomorrow, and we will go through persecutions for the sake of Jesus.

But there are Christians, and religious folk that believe that suffering is a worthy cause to show humility, and it is a false humility.

We are called more than conquerers, yet it is believed by many that God puts us through the fire to give us humility. All I can say is balderdash!

We go through seasons to test our faith, and we go through problems, and we figure out our solutions with total dependence on God. This is true humility. If we don't go through rough times, then how can we learn to go through tough times?

Paul said that God delivered him out of all of his afflictions. 2 Tim. 3:10-11

Paul could have never done the ministry that was put before him, if it wasn't for supernatural power. And we cannot go through our tests, and come out in good shape, if we don't call upon the supernatural power of God.

So many believe that they are so unworthy. But if they or we as a collective are so unworthy, then why are we made TOTALLY righteous by the Blood of Jesus?

You posed a good question.

When we can get out of wearing humility around like a show piece, and quit trying to wear faith like a badge to show our faith, and start to act upon, and be doers of the Word, then we can stop saying to ourselves, I must be humble, I must be humble. Start to trust God and His promises. Become dependent on God, and show our love for Him, by what we do, and what we do for others, and realize that living for God isn't a guru postion, and that God promotes from within, and He can't trust you with alot, if He can't trust you with a little.

No. There is no dispensation.

God uses us today, if not more than He did people 2,000 years ago.

And the problem with religion, and unsound doctrine is. We want to win others at times to our denomination, more than we want to lead them to Jesus.

How many churches are out there, that have people that are devoted, and loyal, and dependable, and so lost that they wouldn't recognize a pulling of the Holy Spirit, if He physically dragged them to the alter.

The problem with dispensationalism is, when a person believes that God doesn't use us like He did others in the NT, it gives them a sense of needing to be good enough by their works, because they don't believe or trust in God for real power to overcome obstacles, and be succesfully succesful, in their ministry. And you know what happens to christians that rely upon their own power? They fall, into bitterness, denial, anger, hurt, and they will argue the live long day to prove they are right.

Good post.

Rev.

Thank you for the complement and thank you for you Insightful reflection.

 

[Gal328]

Because it didn't start with Paul.

You mean it started with Christ?

 

[Agape_]

You mean it started with Christ?

Of course it started with Christ everything is started with Christ. For in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God and everything was made through him. The word was made flesh and he dwelt among us, so in fact everything we know started from Christ and all authority has been given to him.

 

[Gal328]

Of course it started with Christ everything is started with Christ. For in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God and everything was made through him. The word was made flesh and he dwelt among us, so in fact everything we know started from Christ and all authority has been given to him.

** continuing to play the Devil's Advocate. **



But the saved by "the blood of Jesus period" started of course After Jesus died. His blood covers our past, present, and future sins.

1 John 3:9

Whoever is not born of God, does not sin.

 

[Melethiel]

Dispensationalism is just wacky. All people are saved by Christ, no matter what time period they were born in.

 

[Gal328]

Dispensationalism is just wacky. All people are saved by Christ, no matter what time period they were born in.

Yes that's right that's true

 

[linssue55]

Why Bother litsening to what Jesus says in the gospels if the dispinsation of Grace period Starts with Paul?

Every word in the bible is there for a reason. Even if they don't pertain to this church age, they are good for edification, for dispensational references, for growth, for knowing the plan of God, for knowing God. ALL words of the bible are for our benefit.

 

[eoe]

But there are Christians, and religious folk that believe that suffering is a worthy cause to show humility, and it is a false humility.

Interesting - you have the abity to understand the humility of people you have never met and make judgement on it.

We are called more than conquerers, yet it is believed by many that God puts us through the fire to give us humility. All I can say is balderdash!

Here you state that God does not "put us through the fire" or refine us - especially for humility.

We go through seasons to test our faith, and we go through problems, and we figure out our solutions with total dependence on God. This is true humility. If we don't go through rough times, then how can we learn to go through tough times?

Here you utterly contradict yourself and say that We do indeed suffer and are refined.

Paul said that God delivered him out of all of his afflictions. 2 Tim. 3:10-11

All of his afflictions? Every one? I don't think so.
What about this?

(2 Corinthians 12:7) And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

(2 Corinthians 12:8) For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

(2 Corinthians 12:9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

(2 Corinthians 12:10) Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Is this false humility in Paul? This affliction was not taken from him. He says explicitly that God uses this suffering to refine him lest he be exalted.

To restate that - God uses suffering to refine us - in Paul's case for humility.

To restate this again - God put Paul through the fire(allowed suffering) in order to teach him humility (not be exalted).

Please consider re-evaluating your statements on this.

 

[adam332]

** continuing to play the Devil's Advocate. **



But the saved by "the blood of Jesus period" started of course After Jesus died. His blood covers our past, present, and future sins.

1 John 3:9

Whoever is not born of God, does not sin.

Actually, it started with Christ. The blood of the lamb of God has always been what will save anyone. You and I look back to his sacrifice and have faith in our redemption..... just as legitimately as an OT believer looked ahead to the same sacrifice for their redemption.

Granted, I don't think they had as clear and/or the same understanding that hindsight allows us.

 

[Gal328]

Every word in the bible is there for a reason. Even if they don't pertain to this church age, they are good for edification, for dispensational references, for growth, for knowing the plan of God, for knowing God. ALL words of the bible are for our benefit.

But just for educational purposes right? because being that we are saved through faith, What we learn or what we don't learn doesn't effect our salvation.So....Eh....its not really that important if we do know the bible.


...I mean ....Eh.....Why bother??

 

[Gal328]

Actually, it started with Christ. The blood of the lamb of God has always been what will save anyone. You and I look back to his sacrifice and have faith in our redemption..... just as legitimately as an OT believer looked ahead to the same sacrifice for their redemption.

Granted, I don't think they had as clear and/or the same understanding that hindsight allows us.

..... The point that I'm trying to make is, We are not a slave to the Law. We are free from the law. We are under grace. So why can't we do whatever the heck we please?

 

[Gal328]

..... The point that I'm trying to make is, We are not a slave to the Law. We are free from the law. We are under grace. So why can't we do whatever the heck we please?

Why do we have to be perfect? Why Do we have to be peace makers? why do we have to be pure in Heart?

While we're at it why do we have to do anything that the bible tells us to do?


Why do we have to refrain from forinication, adultry and so on?

 

[eoe]

(Matthew 16:24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

(Mark 8:34) And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

(Luke 9:23) And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

How is "Do whatever you want" compatible with "Deny yourself, pick up a cross and follow me"

You are about to demonstrate exactly what is wrong with western protestant theology.

 

[revduane]

Interesting - you have the abity to understand the humility of people you have never met and make judgement on it.


Here you state that God does not "put us through the fire" or refine us - especially for humility.


Here you utterly contradict yourself and say that We do indeed suffer and are refined.


All of his afflictions? Every one? I don't think so.
What about this?

Is this false humility in Paul? This affliction was not taken from him. He says explicitly that God uses this suffering to refine him lest he be exalted.

To restate that - God uses suffering to refine us - in Paul's case for humility.

To restate this again - God put Paul through the fire(allowed suffering) in order to teach him humility (not be exalted).

Please consider re-evaluating your statements on this.

There is nothing to re-evaluate. Pauls thorn in the flesh was never sickness, bad eyesight, or ingrown toenails.

But it was a messenger of Satan, sent to buffet or beat against Paul.

It couldn't have been bad eyesight, because his vision was restored to him, by the power of God through Ananias.

Pauls states that it was a messenger. A messenger is someone, or a spirit sent to give good or bad reports. In this case, it was a messenger of Satan, sent by Satan to do everything possible to come at Pauls through the unbelievers, and even some believers, to make Pauls ministry inneffective.

God's grace is sufficient. In other words, God's unmerited favor and grace is sufficient to bring us out of bondage, because we have no power against Satan apart from our authority in Christ Jesus. Which says. Paul glorified in his infirmities, or weaknesses, because he knew his own strength was insufficient, but God's strength was sufficient.

So thorn in the flesh is an illustration. It is used as an illustration in more places than one in the OT.

God's grace is also also sufficient in our weaknesses, because we are to resist the devil, and he will flee from us. God never said that He would resist the devil. We are told to resist the devil. We have all authority over Satan, and not only are we above, but we are far above him. This is all because of the Authority of Jesus, and our authority through the Name of Jesus.

This is why God told Paul that His grace was sufficient. Because when we are weak, and having a hard time with Satan, we are then made strong, by excersizing our authority over Satan, by the power of the blood of Jesus, and God's grace.

Satan has no power over you that you don't give him. He attacks us through our thought life. That is why it is written. Take every thought captive.

Because listening to Satan causes us to agree with him, have more faith in what he can do, instead of what God can do. This causes bad images, and as a man thinks so he is. These images cause strongholds, the stronghold cause's us to give into our emotions, such as fear, and guilt. This causes us to make bad decisions, and bad decisions destroy our life.

Blessings Rev.