Why believe?

[Wiccan_Child]

According to (mainstream) Christianity, one is saved by one's belief in Jesus' death and resurrection. Or some such. The details aren't too important.

My question is: why? Why are we only saved if we believe that these events took place?

If Jesus died for our sins, if he is the perfect sacrifice that absolves us of our sinful nature, why does it matter what we actually believe?

 

[suzybeezy]

We are saved by Grace (a free undeserved gift from God), through faith in Jesus Christ alone and His completed work on the cross and resurrection from the dead. He accepted the full punishment due us for our sin (rebellion against God) and opened the door that God can extend his Grace (our undeserved salvation) to all who will accept it. The key is to accept it. But we are not saved by faith alone, but through obedience to the commandments of Christ. Jesus became "the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" Hebrews 5: 9.

 

[drich0150]

why?

A side from a the excellent explanation of grace/works relationship you got above, you need to understand that we are given this life to prove to ourselves that we can live for and love God without any influence from him or anything more than a shadow of what He has to offer us. Why? Because how hard would it be standing before God and all of his glory, and all of the Majesty of eternity and claim that you love him, when in fact at best, you may only love what He can do for you..

It's like winning the lottery, if suddenly you won 100 million dollars, would you give a hand out to every gold digger that came your way? what about those who truly loved you?? Those who Loved you when they had nothing to gain or knew nothing of reward? Should your effort to your "loved" ones be the same as all of the Johnny come latelys? Should you even reward all of your "new best friends" at all? For what, they don't "love" or even care for you, they only care for what you can potentially do for them. Is this a behavior that deserves any kind of reward at all?

Excepting Jesus as your lord and savior places you in a position of "Loving" the Lord, before you truly realize how much more he has to offer than just 100 million dollars.

 

[hlaltimus]

The reason why even though Jesus Christ died for us in the past, the benefits to us are still not applied unless one believes, is because when he died that death was only the offering up of the sacrifice, not an atonement. When a substitutionary victim was ceremonially killed in the Old Testament, that was a sacrifice....But when the blood of redemption was applied to an applicant, that was an atonement. The two are mentioned together in the scripture because they are two halves of God's one purpose of redemption and are designed to work together, but they are still two different things. His sacrificial death does though automatically and involuntarily atone for sin, (I personally believe,) in the case of all infants and young children below the age of accountability, but for adults God expects personal and daily faith in His sacrifice in order to receive the benefit of an atonement for sin.

The sacrifice made an atonement available, but personal faith applies that sacrifice as an atonement to your guilty state and is always effectual and limited to the extent of the application but no further. This is why the scriptures warn us to "be faithful unto death". Or you could also say, that for all adults the sacrifice makes salvation possible, but an atonement effectually secures salvation. Those who tragically die outside of Christ will be prosecuted for their sins, not because the atonement of Christ was really theirs but still failed, but because the never did receive His atonement at all and that is why they are there. They "weep and gnash their teeth", because they did actually receive His atonement to pardon them as children, but foolishly let it slip right through their hands as adults by contempuously disregarding His gracious offer. The thing that is automatic for us is His sacrifice alone, but for all adults the atonement of the sacrifice is not automatic, but is quite conditional upon the application of faith.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

A side from a the excellent explanation of grace/works relationship you got above, you need to understand that we are given this life to prove to ourselves that we can live for and love God without any influence from him or anything more than a shadow of what He has to offer us. Why? Because how hard would it be standing before God and all of his glory, and all of the Majesty of eternity and claim that you love him, when in fact at best, you may only love what He can do for you..

It's like winning the lottery, if suddenly you won 100 million dollars, would you give a hand out to every gold digger that came your way? what about those who truly loved you?? Those who Loved you when they had nothing to gain or knew nothing of reward? Should your effort to your "loved" ones be the same as all of the Johnny come latelys? Should you even reward all of your "new best friends" at all? For what, they don't "love" or even care for you, they only care for what you can potentially do for them. Is this a behavior that deserves any kind of reward at all?

Excepting Jesus as your lord and savior places you in a position of "Loving" the Lord, before you truly realize how much more he has to offer than just 100 million dollars.

May we come to love as God loves. Love isn't based upon getting but giving. There is loving by gain and loving by loving to love. Christianity is a religion all powerful based upon the spirit of love, to love with the desire to love more without gain. You are casting off the world's inferior concept of "love-gain" and entering into the love religion where there is perfect peace, joy and everlasting life and power. An amazing difference!

 

[drich0150]

May we come to love as God loves. Love isn't based upon getting but giving. There is loving by gain and loving by loving to love. Christianity is a religion all powerful based upon the spirit of love, to love with the desire to love more without gain. You are casting off the world's inferior concept of "love-gain" and entering into the love religion where there is perfect peace, joy and everlasting life and power. An amazing difference!

how is this concept different than what I wrote?

 

[ebia]

According to (mainstream) Christianity, one is saved by one's belief in Jesus' death and resurrection. Or some such. The details aren't too important.

My question is: why? Why are we only saved if we believe that these events took place?

If Jesus died for our sins, if he is the perfect sacrifice that absolves us of our sinful nature, why does it matter what we actually believe?

Because we need to be changed, and that change comes through trusting in Jesus.

God has acted in the death and resurrection of Jesus to defeat that which stood in the way of putting right the world, but we, and our behaviour, still remain both at the heart of the problem and the solution.

God is putting the world to rights and invites (but does not force) us to be part of that. The way we become part of it is to "repent and believe in [him]", i.e. to give up on our way of doing things and get on-board with his. Then one starts to become part of the solution, not just part of the problem.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

A side from a the excellent explanation of grace/works relationship you got above, you need to understand that we are given this life to prove to ourselves that we can live for and love God without any influence from him or anything more than a shadow of what He has to offer us. Why? Because how hard would it be standing before God and all of his glory, and all of the Majesty of eternity and claim that you love him, when in fact at best, you may only love what He can do for you..

Perhaps, but why do I have to claim that I love him at all? If God really wants us to freely choose, surely our choice can't have any repercussions? Why does it matter what I believe, or who I love?

It's like winning the lottery, if suddenly you won 100 million dollars, would you give a hand out to every gold digger that came your way? what about those who truly loved you?? Those who Loved you when they had nothing to gain or knew nothing of reward? Should your effort to your "loved" ones be the same as all of the Johnny come latelys? Should you even reward all of your "new best friends" at all? For what, they don't "love" or even care for you, they only care for what you can potentially do for them. Is this a behavior that deserves any kind of reward at all?

Excepting Jesus as your lord and savior places you in a position of "Loving" the Lord, before you truly realize how much more he has to offer than just 100 million dollars.

I'm confused. Do we love Jesus for the sake of loving him, or for the rewards he has to offer? What happens if we use our God-given free will to choose not to love him?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

We are saved by Grace (a free undeserved gift from God), through faith in Jesus Christ alone and His completed work on the cross and resurrection from the dead.

Yes, but my question is why we are saved by faith (and, presumably, a lack of faith means we're unsaved).

He accepted the full punishment due us for our sin (rebellion against God) and opened the door that God can extend his Grace (our undeserved salvation) to all who will accept it.

Why doesn't God grant everyone salvation?

The key is to accept it. But we are not saved by faith alone, but through obedience to the commandments of Christ. Jesus became "the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" Hebrews 5: 9.

Wait, you just said we are saved by faith alone .

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Because we need to be changed, and that change comes through trusting in Jesus.

God has acted in the death and resurrection of Jesus to defeat that which stood in the way of putting right the world, but we, and our behaviour, still remain both at the heart of the problem and the solution.

So before Jesus' death, there was no solution to the problem, and afterwards there was, yes?

God is putting the world to rights and invites (but does not force) us to be part of that. The way we become part of it is to "repent and believe in [him]", i.e. to give up on our way of doing things and get on-board with his. Then one starts to become part of the solution, not just part of the problem.

Are we talking about suffering on Earth, or the fact that humans don't automatically go to Heaven? In either case, why does God need us to believe in him before anything gets done? Surely our belief in God doesn't magic away volcanoes and malaria .

 

[Chesterton]

According to (mainstream) Christianity, one is saved by one's belief in Jesus' death and resurrection. Or some such. The details aren't too important.

My question is: why? Why are we only saved if we believe that these events took place?

If Jesus died for our sins, if he is the perfect sacrifice that absolves us of our sinful nature, why does it matter what we actually believe?

Do you believe in "the scientific method"? I'm guessing somehow you'd say "yes", and if you do believe in it; does believing in the scientific method guide you closer to Truth?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Do you believe in "the scientific method"?

The scientific method is just that: a method. It isn't a statement that we can 'believe' in (like, 'I believe I can fly').

I'm guessing somehow you'd say "yes", and if you do believe in it; does believing in the scientific method guide you closer to Truth?

I believe the scientific method is the most reliable way to acquire knowledge about the world around us, if that's what you mean.

 

[drich0150]

Perhaps, but why do I have to claim that I love him at all? If God really wants us to freely choose, surely our choice can't have any repercussions? Why does it matter what I believe, or who I love?

If you did not Love someone would you, could you spend an eternity with them? Every hour of Everyday, forever?

The repercussions you speak of simply allows us the freedom to either be in the presents of the Lord (Or a part of His creation) or to be separated from Him and all that he has created. (the Void) in other words to be apart of nothingness in the truest sense. If we choose to be apart of His creation then know, God Being omnipresent, places God in every part of His creation at every given moment. So if you do in fact choose to be part from him, then the only place you can do that is in the Void or Hell. And that what makes Hell, Hell (not fire and brimstone) but the absents of God or any part of creation.

I'm confused. Do we love Jesus for the sake of loving him, or for the rewards he has to offer?

My point was to show that once we die, our eyes will be open, and our minds will comprehend the true majesty of the Lord.. Now in the Presents of God and with full awareness of who he is ,and what Hell will mean for us. How hard will it be to confess "true love" to the Lord even if you didn't mean it? That's what I meant by you winning the lottery.. Once the people around or the people who simply know you, find out what it is you can now offer them by your new found wealth, then you will receive all sorts of professions of "love." (Even if they don't mean it just to take advantage of what you can offer.)

And Again that's why we have been given this life. Our eyes are blinded, and our ears deafen to the Lord, and his true Majesty, so that we may live according to our hearts truest desire... If we prove ourselves faithful and live to God even without a true or complete understanding or knowledge of what is to come then our efforts will be based on the why, that lives with in us, and not the what we are doing it for...

Very simply put, we are to love God for the sake of loving him, but there is no way of doing that unless we have been put in a place where we have been partially blinded and deafen so that we may not know of his true glory.. (This Life) And then Given the ability to Choose Him or our own versions of righteousness without all of the Majesty of creation and his glory influencing our decision. So in the end we will receive what our Heart truly want, even if our minds will be clouded with God's majesty, and the Glory of creation.

What happens if we use our God-given free will to choose not to love him?

Then we get to spend eternity with the one we choose to love apart from God. (Our selves) Without any part of what God, or what He has created.

 

[ebia]

So before Jesus' death, there was no solution to the problem, and afterwards there was, yes?

I suppose you could put it that way.

Are we talking about suffering on Earth, or the fact that humans don't automatically go to Heaven?

Christianity is not about "going to heaven when you die", but about God putting right this creation, into which the (faithful) dead can be resurrected.

In either case, why does God need us to believe in him before anything gets done?

The transformation of people requires their active involvement.

Surely our belief in God doesn't magic away volcanoes and malaria .

According to any theology grounded in Genesis, human idolatory and our failure to live up to our role in creation is the root cause of all the suffering in the world. Putting us right is necessary for putting creation right. And putting us right requires our involvement.

 

[newbeliever02072005]

Mod Hat On


Thread re-opened. Please keep in mind the forum specific guidelines here. Only the OP of the thread may reply to the posts here. If you are carrying an Non-Christian icon and have a question (s), please start a new thread.


Thank you so much,





Mod hat Off​

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Christianity is not about "going to heaven when you die", but about God putting right this creation, into which the (faithful) dead can be resurrected.

Nevertheless, getting into Heaven is one result of one's salvation.

The transformation of people requires their active involvement.

Why does it? Can't God, the Creator of the universe, just snap his fingers and be done with it?

According to any theology grounded in Genesis, human idolatory and our failure to live up to our role in creation is the root cause of all the suffering in the world. Putting us right is necessary for putting creation right. And putting us right requires our involvement.

But that doesn't explain how human idolatry and whatnot cause volcanoes and malaria...

 

[freeport]

According to (mainstream) Christianity, one is saved by one's belief in Jesus' death and resurrection. Or some such. The details aren't too important.

My question is: why? Why are we only saved if we believe that these events took place?

If Jesus died for our sins, if he is the perfect sacrifice that absolves us of our sinful nature, why does it matter what we actually believe?

The peace, love, and joy in our hearts itself tells us that Jesus is alive.

It is really that simple.

We have as evidence in our hearts God has defeated death.

Maybe that seems a "mystical" answer -- whatever. It is the simple truth.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

The peace, love, and joy in our hearts itself tells us that Jesus is alive.

It is really that simple.

We have as evidence in our hearts God has defeated death.

Maybe that seems a "mystical" answer -- whatever. It is the simple truth.

Actually, I asked why we are only saved if we believe, not the reasons to believe. Even if there is good reason to believe, why does it matter? Why isn't the non-believer saved?

 

[freeport]

Actually, I asked why we are only saved if we believe, not the reasons to believe. Even if there is good reason to believe, why does it matter? Why isn't the non-believer saved?

No.

Okay, it is hard to talk to you because you keep wanting to rest on "knowledge" and what people have told you about God, instead of the heart and what you know to be true about God.

God is beyond words and beyond knowledge.

I don't care if fifty million people came and told you half truths or watered down truths.

You do the same, so why should you care?

This whole "believer", "unbeliever", "unsaved", "saved", "Heaven", "Hell" thing...

Totally wrong direction.

Those are words to express the infinite, the eternal. They speak of spiritual things not of this world.

There is One God. God is Love.

Man (and I mean here as well woman) is created. Not God. Therefore, unsaved.

The point is to bring about children of God, connecting the creation, the symbolic drawing... the clay... to God.

People are either unioned with God, who is Love, or they are still just a creature, someone created, not united with the Eternal Goodness of their Maker.

Jesus Christ alone came from Heaven as a conduit, a portal, the gate: so people could be joined to God.

This is about being born again: death to the old self and rebirth in the Spirit of God.

It is as Jesus said: The Kingdom of Heaven does not come so that you can see it by careful observation, but it is within and among you.

It is not about rules and words and churches and whatever else. It is about becoming a new creature, a true child of God.

It is about having a real, live heart.

About all your wildest dreams coming true: the fleshly portion of them burnt away and their far greater meaning opened up. About being of Spirit - yet in the flesh - and no longer bound to a dark, cruel world... even while living in it. Seeing Heaven and earth for what it really is.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

No.

Okay, it is hard to talk to you because you keep wanting to rest on "knowledge" and what people have told you about God, instead of the heart and what you know to be true about God.

God is beyond words and beyond knowledge.

I don't care if fifty million people came and told you half truths or watered down truths.

You do the same, so why should you care?

This whole "believer", "unbeliever", "unsaved", "saved", "Heaven", "Hell" thing...

Totally wrong direction.

Those are words to express the infinite, the eternal. They speak of spiritual things not of this world.

There is One God. God is Love.

Man (and I mean here as well woman) is created. Not God. Therefore, unsaved.

The point is to bring about children of God, connecting the creation, the symbolic drawing... the clay... to God.

People are either unioned with God, who is Love, or they are still just a creature, someone created, not united with the Eternal Goodness of their Maker.

Jesus Christ alone came from Heaven as a conduit, a portal, the gate: so people could be joined to God.

This is about being born again: death to the old self and rebirth in the Spirit of God.

It is as Jesus said: The Kingdom of Heaven does not come so that you can see it by careful observation, but it is within and among you.

It is not about rules and words and churches and whatever else. It is about becoming a new creature, a true child of God.

It is about having a real, live heart.

About all your wildest dreams coming true: the fleshly portion of them burnt away and their far greater meaning opened up. About being of Spirit - yet in the flesh - and no longer bound to a dark, cruel world... even while living in it. Seeing Heaven and earth for what it really is.

That's all very well and good, but it misses the issue: why do we have to believe in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ in order for all this wondrous stuff to come about? Why can't we see Heaven and Earth for what they really are without having to put our faith in this or that?

You've painted quite a romantic picture about what we could experience, but you haven't explained why we (or, at least, I) don't experience it, nor have you explained how we go about experiencing it.

These things are the point of the thread. I don't mind what it is you're required to believe, or what happens if you do or do not believe; I'm only interested in why we have to believe in the first place.