Why believe?

[freeport]

That's all very well and good, but it misses the issue: why do we have to believe in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ in order for all this wondrous stuff to come about? Why can't we see Heaven and Earth for what they really are without having to put our faith in this or that?

You've painted quite a romantic picture about what we could experience, but you haven't explained why we (or, at least, I) don't experience it, nor have you explained how we go about experiencing it.

These things are the point of the thread. I don't mind what it is you're required to believe, or what happens if you do or do not believe; I'm only interested in why we have to believe in the first place.

I had to explain that stuff to move forward. It is not romantic, btw, just an expression of what I experience and my life.

True story.

Anyway, let me go from this:

<<<Why can't we see Heaven and Earth for what they really are without having to put our faith in this or that?>>>

Remember: faith is natural in the Holy Spirit. You trust God because you are then of God and know God. Without the Holy Spirit you are as a character in this Book God has written. He put himself in that book so that people might come alive from the page and be real, living people.

It is a book. There has to be villains and adversity for any story: or there is no plot. Imagine any movie or book without that. What do you have? Some guy or girl sitting in a chair doing nothing.

They are not a hero, they are not a heroine.

They are living a boring existence which is deserving of no note.

So, through the Spirit of God, people are made into children of God, but the Spirit grows in them through adversity and facing adversaries. They learn about the Spirit of God and His power in overcoming in this way. It carves the soul.

That learning is the very growing process. And it is also the story.

Now, it is then after a valid question to ask: well, what if you were made to play the part of a villain? What about everyone else?

Well, they have to go through their bad times, just as the others went first. That is my perspective on the matter. The tables then are turned. The meek inherit the earth, the villains who led and ran the world into the ground... they then become last.

Do they then after have any chance to be saved? I sure hope so! They are facing eternal punishment. Who knows whether or not they might be able to? If they change and believe?

That is up to them -- whenever the resurrection comes. Which, hey. Could come at anytime or even be here for all people know.

After all, look at Nineveh. Jesus said the only sign they would get was the sign of Jonah. Sure, that was about the three days in the grave, but maybe it also tied into the whole story there as well? Jonah was sent to Nineveh with a message of certain destruction. There was no way out. But, the Ninevites repented. So, God relented.

As for words or deeds saving people... that is out the window. Man can do no good unless he is born again. So, what good might he do to earn the Holy Spirit? None, of course. By faith, there is no boasting. Therefore, one must but just believe to be saved.

Belief is a matter of the heart. What would you have to do to be saved anyway? Jump up and through hoops? Run in circles? Take some drug?

People do not understand: words and deeds are nothing. The flesh trusts in them and considers them greatly. It is about *being*, not words and deeds. Words and deeds spring naturally from being. Those of the earth, born only of the earth, bring forth evil from their hearts, from their being: they do not know the joy, peace, and love of the Spirit of God.

They are in prison already.

Finally, I am not sure if you understood what I said about "why God just doesn't give everyone the Holy Spirit to begin with", above. It is because people are as plants. They grow. This creation is the soil.

That is another way to explain it.

Do you understand what I am saying?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

As for words or deeds saving people... that is out the window. Man can do no good unless he is born again. So, what good might he do to earn the Holy Spirit? None, of course. By faith, there is no boasting. Therefore, one must but just believe to be saved.

But why? This is the crux of the issue. Are you saying that, since faith is pure and unadulterated by ulterior motives, it is the only way to truly repent? That, because physical acts and deeds are ultimately always selfish, man's works are worthless?

Belief is a matter of the heart.

Agreed.

What would you have to do to be saved anyway? Jump up and through hoops? Run in circles? Take some drug?

No: I would save them, regardless of what they did, what they said, or what they believed. And that last part is important: I wouldn't save only those people who believe in this, or have faith in that.

People do not understand: words and deeds are nothing. The flesh trusts in them and considers them greatly. It is about *being*, not words and deeds. Words and deeds spring naturally from being. Those of the earth, born only of the earth, bring forth evil from their hearts, from their being: they do not know the joy, peace, and love of the Spirit of God.

And whose fault is that? We are not capable of endowing people with Holy Spirit; only God can do that. So why doesn't he? The biggest obstacle people have when it comes to Christianity is the fact that they have no reason to have the required faith.

They are in prison already.

Finally, I am not sure if you understood what I said about "why God just doesn't give everyone the Holy Spirit to begin with", above. It is because people are as plants. They grow. This creation is the soil.

That is another way to explain it.

Yet God, for all his power, can't create us fully-formed. He can't create us with a soul that's already been carved, or what have you.

Do you understand what I am saying?

I believe we are making headway, yes.