• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Why BELIEVE, shouldn't we KNOW?

pocaracas

Active Member
Jun 14, 2011
85
3
Lisboa
✟222.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Ever since I was born, people have told me that there exists this being of such ultimate power, knowledge and love that he can do whatever he wishes, he can know what we think, he can act upon the sub-microscopic world and perform magic, the real kind!
This being then created this universe we live in.... the galaxies, the stars, the planets, the moons. On this particular planet, he chose to bestow the greatest gift: life.
Dinosaurs and other long extinct animals apart, he planted humanity here.... with the strange purpose of joining him... after death.

These first people had, naturally, knowledge of such being. He was their instructor. They then went on to pass this knowledge to their offspring, who then passed it to their offspring... and so on and so forth until today.
So, when we "believe", we are actually believing what these people have been telling us.
Why can't that being just let all of us know that he is there and waiting for him? Why does he rely on measly humans to carry on his original ideas and teachings? I mean, he should know the old saying: he who tells a tale, adds a tail.
How can anyone guarantee that what happened so long ago was really what people now claim?


Lets look at this from the other side.
What do we now know?
We know we are here, on this planet, on this solar system, on this galaxy, on this Universe. We know the Universe is vast and its mass is similar to what can be found here: hydrogen, helium and the other elements of our periodic table, but mainly those two which are present in stars.
We know that, on this planet, life sparked. How exactly? We don't know. Some people believe in some theories, other believe in other theories and others just plainly say: I don't know.
Life sparked and evolved. Cells gathered to make larger, more resilient organisms; these changed their appearance in order to adapt to the environment, dinosaurs came and went, just as lots of other animal species. Some survived, the better equipped to handle the ever-changing environment. Eventually, hominids came by and one branch led to modern humans.
It is safe to claim that, originally, these hominids had no notion, no concept of divinity. At some stage, then, they must have acquired it. How? I see two options:
1 - a divinity (or more than one?) actually appeared to them and taught them all they needed about the non-corporeal(spirit) world.
2 - they made it up, perhaps due to perplexity before such events as death, fire, thunder, rain, sun, etc.

Again, in case my guess Number 1 is right, why would this divinity only make it self known to the first people and not to every single one? why would such a being rely on humans to carry that message? Knowing, beforehand, that they would most likely foul it up and then segregate and generate conflicts among them... why?

On the other hand, if my guess Number 2 is correct, it all makes perfect sense. No divinity exists. People simply believe it does because some came up with the concept and others picked it up. When they realized the power such a concept could convey over simple and ignorant people, they managed to spread it make people believe and believe and believe. Never knowing.

I'm sorry for the wall of text. It's an idea I've been having inside for a while and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
 

pocaracas

Active Member
Jun 14, 2011
85
3
Lisboa
✟222.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
God hides from us b/c it is impossible to please God without faith. Heb.11:6
If we all know then we have no need of faith.
Exactly my point.
Why is faith necessary?
Why would any being with the characteristics of god (christian, jew, muslim, etc) require faith from human beings?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Annoula

Freedom
Jul 19, 2005
3,225
79
52
✟18,822.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
i think our problem in believing in the existence of God is that we are unable to see the whole picture.

what i mean with "whole picture"... as you said, we live on a planet, within a solar system, within a galaxy, within a huge universe.
where is this universe located?
who created it?
why?
(these are some of the questions raised)

for me the answer is one: a supreme being created all this. but i don't know why or where.

he planted humanity here.... with the strange purpose of joining him... after death.

this supreme being that i call Ανώτατος Νους = Maximum Mind, wished to create.
and He created everything known and unknown to us, us included.
the Bible says that humans were placed in an area called Paradise and had direct contact with this Being - Mind - Creator - God.
but they did something wrong, that was not welcomed by the Creator. so they had to flee from this place and live on earth.

the Creator wanted to re-establish their direct contact and made a plan. this plan involved all that Christianity came to believe. Jesus Christ coming on earth, apocalypses of His Trinity, second coming of Jesus etc.
i see everything as a huge plan. a plan that is not rational and it cannot be understood from the human mind, because it was created by the Maximum Mind ever. the Creator of all Creation.

that's my own viewpoint. hope it helps.
 
Upvote 0

pocaracas

Active Member
Jun 14, 2011
85
3
Lisboa
✟222.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Awesome point of view! Thanks!


If we go by Einstein, space and time are part of the Universe. The concept of outside of the Universe doesn't make sense in a space-time geometry sense. So "where is the Universe" is a question that also doesn't make sense.
And the real difficulty is that time is here as well. Before the Universe also doesn't make sense. But we like to imagine a big void of nothing and BANG!

Why does there have to be a creator? Why does it have to be a someone?
Science's easiest reply to this is that, probably, the Universe has always been here. Maybe, there was something before the big bang; maybe there were several big bangs. And, with each new bang, all information of the Universe prior to it is wiped out.
I find this a little easier to accept than some being did it. Where did your being come from? Was it created or did it evolve, somehow? Is there only one? Why not more?


And where do all the other religions fit there? specially those that came before christianity, before jews, before the monotheism.
 
Upvote 0

Biker Angel

Never coming back to this mad house
Sep 12, 2009
1,209
206
California
✟25,001.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Exactly my point.
Why is faith necessary?
Why would any being with the characteristics of god (christian, jew, muslim, etc) require faith from human beings?

I believe that having faith is what separates us human animals from all the rest of the animals. The ability to have faith is indicative of our spiritual side and faith feeds the soul to help it grow and understand the will of God. An exorcise in faith like saying grace over ones food, builds spiritual muscles to help cope with everyday life with it's pain and struggles.
 
Upvote 0

pocaracas

Active Member
Jun 14, 2011
85
3
Lisboa
✟222.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I cope just fine without any faith.
And typically, what separates humans from the rest of the animal kingdom is a lot more than the ability to have faith.... and it's all in the DNA.
 
Upvote 0

drich0150

Regular Member
Mar 16, 2008
6,407
437
Florida
✟59,834.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
 
Upvote 0

Biker Angel

Never coming back to this mad house
Sep 12, 2009
1,209
206
California
✟25,001.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I cope just fine without any faith.
And typically, what separates humans from the rest of the animal kingdom is a lot more than the ability to have faith.... and it's all in the DNA.

So if I tell you I believe that we humans have a spirit/soul and that's what enables us to be able to have faith. But the other animals don't have a spirit/soul so they don't have the ability to have faith and comprehend God as creator, You just don't believe me because your an unbeliever.

So then the answers you are looking for can not come from a Christian point of view because you already reject that. I hope you find the answers to your ?'s
elsewhere but since you came here asking, I take it that you never have. Well take care and I will be praying that you find faith as your answer.
 
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Exactly my point.
Why is faith necessary?
Why would any being with the characteristics of god (christian, jew, muslim, etc) require faith from human beings?
I think that in making Himself only known to those who want to know Him, it naturally assist's His selection of those who are worthy to know Him eternally. It is therefore a voluntary action on the part of the human, whether it will comply with God or whether it will not, and there is no iron fist to force us to wear a mask. The evil are completely free to be evil while the good are completely free to be good. If on the other hand God lived and ruled in a physical body since the beginning of time, some of us would feel compelled to be good against our own will, and it would develop contention toward God, I guess you just have to think a bit more about why God does things the way He does. His wisdom is incredible.
 
Upvote 0

pocaracas

Active Member
Jun 14, 2011
85
3
Lisboa
✟222.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,824
1,926
✟998,968.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Exactly my point.
Why is faith necessary?
Why would any being with the characteristics of god (christian, jew, muslim, etc) require faith from human beings?
All mature adults have “faith” in something or someone. It is the channeling of this “trust” (faith) toward God that is the total of what man brings to the relationship with God and God is providing all the rest.

The fact is the lowliest mature adult on earth can put his trust (faith) in his Creator and in fact might find it easier to do than the learned wise rich person.

Trusting (faith) God is contrasted with trusting self, but man is made with a needed “ego” (desire for self preservation) which is partly self center and thus somewhat selfish. We are taught (especially in the USA) to be self reliant and pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. The problem is we need to be humble in order to accept “Charity” and accepting “charity” humbly and correctly is the only way for us to receive the charity. Trusting in God is humbling (contrasted with trusting self) and that humility is enough to get us to the point of swallowing our pride and accepting God’s help (forgiveness/Love/Mercy/Grace/Love).

Faith along with everything else in this world is helping willing humans accept God’s Charity.

Man’s earthly objective is not to have “faith” since we all have faith in something, but it is to obtain Godly type Love (unconditional, undeserving, sacrificial). God cannot give us this “Love” (agape) instinctively (that would be a robotic type of Love) and God cannot force this Love on us (that would not be Loving on His part or would it be Godly type Love we got). The best God can do for us is to allow us to accept the Love as an unconditional and undeserving gift, but that means accepting charity and humans do not like to take charity especially when the giver made a huge sacrifice. To correctly accept charity, humans have to have a big need for the charity and humble themselves to accept it. Thus the need for sin, the burden sin creates the need for forgiveness which is the easiest way for us to accept charity (Love, grace, mercy).
 
Upvote 0

Biker Angel

Never coming back to this mad house
Sep 12, 2009
1,209
206
California
✟25,001.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Good point, bling.
So we are here to obtain a "godly type love" and can only obtain it if we are charitable.... no belief required. Is that it?
I must have a lot of that type of love in stock!

No not charitable, humble and God is the one being charitable not us.
You have it backwards. Bling said:

"The problem is we need to be humble in order to accept “Charity” and accepting “charity” humbly and correctly is the only way for us to receive the charity."
 
Upvote 0

pocaracas

Active Member
Jun 14, 2011
85
3
Lisboa
✟222.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
ah.. yes... I'm sorry, I had it wrong.

So we just have to be "humble", no believing required.
But bling also defined "humble" as "trusting god"... so there is a requirement for belief. why?
Why is an almighty being so needy of belief or trust from our side?
 
Upvote 0

Biker Angel

Never coming back to this mad house
Sep 12, 2009
1,209
206
California
✟25,001.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

It was in Gods plan from the beginning that Satan and God would have this on going rivalry as depicted in Job 1:6-12 It is a test from God that establishes the need for faith and believing in God which makes him happy.

One day the angels[a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

It really has nothing to do with us. It's a battle of wits between God and Satan and we are just the pieces on their chess board.If you choose God then God moves you around the board accordingly but if you choose Satan then you simply burn in hell forever. It's really very easy to understand.
 
Upvote 0