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Featured Why Believe in Perpetual Virginity?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by brightlights, Jan 26, 2017.

  1. brightlights

    brightlights A sinner

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    Another way to pose the OP question is this:

    What would be lost if we did not believe in Mary's perpetual virginity?

    Is it a doctrine on which many other important things rest? Or is it just an interesting historical detail?

    For example, the doctrine of the virgin birth of Christ is very significant. A lot of other important things would be lost if we did not believe in it. But the doctrine that Jesus was a carpenter before he started his ministry is not like this. While it is true, it wouldn't make much of a difference if he had been a stone cutter.
     
  2. Tigger45

    Tigger45 St’s Peter & Paul Supporter

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    Cool, you might find this of interest too :oldthumbsup:
     
  3. Tangible

    Tangible Decision Theology = Ex Opere Operato

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    Exactly. PV cannot be proven one way or another definitively by using scripture. It is a pious opinion. As brightlights said, it has no effect on the Gospel either way, and therefore is an indifferent matter to be held or not according to one's own personal conviction.

    I hold to PV because the early church fathers, as well as the Reformers all believed that PV was a valid belief, and there are detailed reasons why they did. I see no reason to differ from them in this matter. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

    However, I do have a problem with any church that would require PV to be accepted as a dogmatic point of doctrine. Consciences should never be bound to matters that are not instrumental to a proper understanding and distinction between Law and Gospel. We have the freedom in Christ to accept these adiaphora or not according to the dictates of our own conscience.
     
  4. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

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    Well, if I may, perhaps a graphic illustration of the difference between the world of nature and the world of theology is the idea of rebirth.
    Jesus talked about it, and there was one chap who to paraphrase, was a little concerned of the effect that being reborn at this point in his life would have on his mother.
    Jesus had to explain to him that being reborn was not a carnal thing. Being reborn had nothing to do with the female reproductive system.
    Likewise, virginity, in the spiritual sense, has nothing to do with sex.

    The biblical passages do not de-emphasize the role of grace in Mary's life, but stress that she is full of grace.
    I think the way that I explained what was different about that the idea developed historically from Irenaeus of Lyons, if I am recalling correctly, whose emphasis was on the ever-virginity and purity of Scripture.
    The type for Mary is not in Moses or Noah, but in the reed basket and the ark.
    Hers is the purity of the vessel, the purity of Scripture itself which delivers the Savior of the World.
    Do we at least agree with the perfection of Scripture, or is it something to be considered sinful, imperfect, evil and weak?
     
  5. psalms 91

    psalms 91 Legend

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    Totally without scriptural support and absolutely no basis for it. They are in error for this and many other things as well
     
  6. brightlights

    brightlights A sinner

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    I agree. And I believe that Mary was indeed a pious woman worthy of meditation upon and imitation of. But Scripture nowhere says she was sinless (a different doctrine not the focus of this thread) nor does she need to be sinless or perfectly pure in order to deliver our Savior.

    I agree that Scripture is perfect, holy, and pure. But I would not connect Scripture to Mary. I would connect Scripture to Jesus Christ who is the only word of God.
     
  7. Tangible

    Tangible Decision Theology = Ex Opere Operato

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    This sort of uninformed, knee-jerk reaction is not really helpful.

    Aren't you even curious why the entire Christian Church held to PV until very just very recently?
     
  8. Wolf_Says

    Wolf_Says Well-Known Member

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    Right....I must say I am impressed by all the links, posts, and evidence you have used to support this claim!
     
  9. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

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    Your own theology may not make the connection.
    But the Theology of the Perpetual Virginity does make that connection.

    So again, the theology is nothing about sex being dirty. It does not historically tie back to the person of Mary and the body of biographical knowledge passed on about her.
    Waht it does ties back to historically is Irenaeus of Lyons and what he speaks of concerning Scripture.

    The OT types for Jesus are people you mentioned, such as Noah and Moses and David and Jonah too. The sinlessness of Jesus fulfilled and completed those types.
    These men are not the type for Mary, Mother of God. Her type likes in the reed basket on the Nile, the Ark of the Covenant, Noah's Ark, Scripture itself, carry the Word of God through the ages as the ultimate salvation of the world.
    The better understanding of the dogma does not focus on the carnal and lady body parts, like vulgar women like Madonna focus on in their political protests. The focus is on the spiritual, and Mary as Mother of God, truly a unique role for any person to engage in throughout Biblical history.
     
  10. Thursday

    Thursday Well-Known Member

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    It is believed because is true and has always been taught by the Church. Why make something like that up?

    Mary is the spouse of God the Holy Spirit, The daughter of God the Father, and the mother of God the Son.
     
  11. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    No, you wouldn't. I've answered such requests from Protestants before and they always back down from that promise saying "Well, that's your interpretation" or "You are mishandling the Word of God" or some other sort of weasel language which gets them off the hook.

    Show me where your particular denomination existed in the first century and I'll tank my Catholic conversion and go back to being a Protestant. How is it that you guys always have the nerve to act as if the Christians and pastors of the first three centuries were lame-brained idiots who got everything wrong until the Protestant Revolution came around?
     
  12. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    I am convinced because the Church teaches it. Period. The problem with Protestantism is that everyone thinks that he is his own authority on what is right and wrong and the truth about God and Christ. Looking at the thousands of denominations with hundreds of different and competing doctrines, I would say that is not working out real well as far as finding out truth.

    Why is it that you believe that you and your assembly have a lock on the truth and no one else? Why is it that you believe that only your assembly is led by the Holy Spirit and not any other, and especially not the Catholic Church?

    St. Paul states that the Church is the "pillar and ground of truth." Jesus said that if a man did not listen to the Church, he should be treated as an infidel (unbeliever). The Church is the center of truth, which is why it is the Catholic Church that has been so attacked over the ages and Protestantism more or less left alone.
     
  13. brightlights

    brightlights A sinner

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    I think that God alone has authority. I'm willing to listen to him through his word. I'm willing to listen to any church or preacher who preaches his word. But if they make claims that are not based on his word then I will not readily accept them.

    I do not believe, like the Romans do, that my church is the only church or that we have a monopoly on truth. I do, however, believe that the word of God is true and that any church teaching it ought to be listened to. Any doctrines not based on the word of God need not be accepted.

    So I'm willing to accept PV if it can be established from Scripture. Since it cannot be, I do not accept it.

    The church only has authority when she is teaching the word of God. When she is teaching her own ideas she has no authority. It's always been this way since the establishment of the church with Abraham.
     
  14. brightlights

    brightlights A sinner

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    "Spouse of the God the Holy Spirit". That's one I've not heard before. This is where I think Mary veneration goes too far and becomes biblically unwarranted.

    As to why make something like that up: I don't know. People, church leaders included, contrive false doctrines all the time. I'm sure some have some interesting theories as to why this particular doctrine was formulated.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2017
  15. brightlights

    brightlights A sinner

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    The Bible connects Jesus to "the word of God". But the Bible does not connect Mary to "the word of God". So which theology is a better representation of the Bible?
     
  16. AdrianUK/Sheff

    AdrianUK/Sheff New Member

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    Ok, it is my firm belief that catholics will go to hell, no amount of sincerity following the wrong religion when the right one was presented to you freely, will do... just as a sincere satanist will go to hell if presented with their Saviour Jesus Christ and having rejected His mercy and grace. Maryianism is babylonianism, nothing else. Being smug doesn't work either, so keep your 'mother church' rhetoric and 'saint' quotations for judgement day. Ok, Mary didn't remain a virgin after the birth of Christ, we know this because her other children are mentioned in the bible. This is clear from the text, to infer that these were spiritual brothers and sisters then you would have to explain why Jesus never referred to His disciples as brothers in the same way.... And if Joseph was a widower with an already large family (oh my, how did that stupidity arise?) then where were they at the birth of Jesus? They all had to go to Bethlehem as well, it would have been easier and safer (given Mary's condition) to have all gone together and taken their own accommodation as was the custom in those days when a large group of people had to travel, so it's all utter pants really, designed to give the catholics some kind of validity.... None of it is true and catholicism IS babylonianism nothing else... come out of her, repent and turn to your saviour Jesus Christ
     
  17. Thursday

    Thursday Well-Known Member

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    They didn't make it up. Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and bore him a son.

    Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. She bore the Word in her womb.
     
  18. DeepWater

    DeepWater Just The Truth

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    Really?
    What gave you that idea, as you didnt get it from a Bible.
    The New Testament said that Mary had other children, and not just Jesus.
    Will you say she adopted them all, as there are quite a few.
    Will you say that "children" is a mistranslation regarding Mary's "children".
     
  19. Thursday

    Thursday Well-Known Member

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    It says no such thing.

    Jesus had Brothers? | Catholic Answers
     
  20. brightlights

    brightlights A sinner

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    Nowhere in Scripture is Mary called the bride of God the Holy Spirit. She was married to Joseph of Nazareth. Are you ready to claim that the Holy Spirit committed adultery?

    Where in Scripture does it say this?
     
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