Why Believe in Perpetual Virginity?

brightlights

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Another way to pose the OP question is this:

What would be lost if we did not believe in Mary's perpetual virginity?

Is it a doctrine on which many other important things rest? Or is it just an interesting historical detail?

For example, the doctrine of the virgin birth of Christ is very significant. A lot of other important things would be lost if we did not believe in it. But the doctrine that Jesus was a carpenter before he started his ministry is not like this. While it is true, it wouldn't make much of a difference if he had been a stone cutter.
 
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Tigger45

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Hey I want to thank you for this reply, particularly the typology that your source points out in the old testament and your handling of "up until".

Cool, you might find this of interest too :oldthumbsup:
 
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Tangible

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Another way to pose the OP question is this:

What would be lost if we did not believe in Mary's perpetual virginity?

Is it a doctrine on which many other important things rest? Or is it just an interesting historical detail?

For example, the doctrine of the virgin birth of Christ is very significant. A lot of other important things would be lost if we did not believe in it. But the doctrine that Jesus was a carpenter before he started his ministry is not like this. While it is true, it wouldn't make much of a difference if he had been a stone cutter.
Exactly. PV cannot be proven one way or another definitively by using scripture. It is a pious opinion. As brightlights said, it has no effect on the Gospel either way, and therefore is an indifferent matter to be held or not according to one's own personal conviction.

I hold to PV because the early church fathers, as well as the Reformers all believed that PV was a valid belief, and there are detailed reasons why they did. I see no reason to differ from them in this matter. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

However, I do have a problem with any church that would require PV to be accepted as a dogmatic point of doctrine. Consciences should never be bound to matters that are not instrumental to a proper understanding and distinction between Law and Gospel. We have the freedom in Christ to accept these adiaphora or not according to the dictates of our own conscience.
 
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SolomonVII

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So you seem to be suggesting that the perpetual virginity of Mary is not historical, but it is a theological idea that conveys some important truth.

But I see a few problems with this, even if it is just theological:
  1. Why would Mary's perpetual virginity enhance her status as the mother of God? Is it because sex is dirty?
Well, if I may, perhaps a graphic illustration of the difference between the world of nature and the world of theology is the idea of rebirth.
Jesus talked about it, and there was one chap who to paraphrase, was a little concerned of the effect that being reborn at this point in his life would have on his mother.
Jesus had to explain to him that being reborn was not a carnal thing. Being reborn had nothing to do with the female reproductive system.
Likewise, virginity, in the spiritual sense, has nothing to do with sex.



  1. Doesn't this de-emphasize God's sovereign grace in working through sinful people to bring about his purposes. Some of what I'm hearing in this thread suggests that Mary was chosen because she was extra holy or super special in some way. And the fact that she never had sex as a married woman makes her even more super special. And this glorifies Mary. But from what I read of Scripture God works through the poor, the unnoticed, the sinful, the despised, the forgotten, and the weak. Like Abraham who betrayed Sarai to save his own skin. Or Moses who initially refused to go when God called him. Or Noah whose heart was full of sin and became the first drunkard after the flood. Why should Mary be any different?
The biblical passages do not de-emphasize the role of grace in Mary's life, but stress that she is full of grace.
I think the way that I explained what was different about that the idea developed historically from Irenaeus of Lyons, if I am recalling correctly, whose emphasis was on the ever-virginity and purity of Scripture.
The type for Mary is not in Moses or Noah, but in the reed basket and the ark.
Hers is the purity of the vessel, the purity of Scripture itself which delivers the Savior of the World.
Do we at least agree with the perfection of Scripture, or is it something to be considered sinful, imperfect, evil and weak?
 
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brightlights

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The biblical passages do not de-emphasize the role of grace in Mary's life, but stress that she is full of grace.

I agree. And I believe that Mary was indeed a pious woman worthy of meditation upon and imitation of. But Scripture nowhere says she was sinless (a different doctrine not the focus of this thread) nor does she need to be sinless or perfectly pure in order to deliver our Savior.

I think the way that I explained what was different about that the idea developed historically from Irenaeus of Lyons, if I am recalling correctly, whose emphasis was on the ever-virginity and purity of Scripture.
The type for Mary is not in Moses or Noah, but in the reed basket and the ark.
Hers is the purity of the vessel, the purity of Scripture itself which delivers the Savior of the World.
Do we at least agree with the perfection of Scripture, or is it something to be considered sinful, imperfect, evil and weak?

I agree that Scripture is perfect, holy, and pure. But I would not connect Scripture to Mary. I would connect Scripture to Jesus Christ who is the only word of God.
 
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Totally without scriptural support and absolutely no basis for it. They are in error for this and many other things as well
This sort of uninformed, knee-jerk reaction is not really helpful.

Aren't you even curious why the entire Christian Church held to PV until very just very recently?
 
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Wolf_Says

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Totally without scriptural support and absolutely no basis for it. They are in error for this and many other things as well

Right....I must say I am impressed by all the links, posts, and evidence you have used to support this claim!
 
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SolomonVII

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I agree that Scripture is perfect, holy, and pure. But I would not connect Scripture to Mary. I would connect Scripture to Jesus Christ who is the only word of God.
Your own theology may not make the connection.
But the Theology of the Perpetual Virginity does make that connection.

So again, the theology is nothing about sex being dirty. It does not historically tie back to the person of Mary and the body of biographical knowledge passed on about her.
Waht it does ties back to historically is Irenaeus of Lyons and what he speaks of concerning Scripture.

The OT types for Jesus are people you mentioned, such as Noah and Moses and David and Jonah too. The sinlessness of Jesus fulfilled and completed those types.
These men are not the type for Mary, Mother of God. Her type likes in the reed basket on the Nile, the Ark of the Covenant, Noah's Ark, Scripture itself, carry the Word of God through the ages as the ultimate salvation of the world.
The better understanding of the dogma does not focus on the carnal and lady body parts, like vulgar women like Madonna focus on in their political protests. The focus is on the spiritual, and Mary as Mother of God, truly a unique role for any person to engage in throughout Biblical history.
 
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Thursday

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Roman Christians believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. This is the doctrine that not only was Mary a virgin at the time she conceived Jesus, but that she remained a virgin throughout her life.

Why believe this?

I understand that the Roman Church teaches this doctrine, and that this reason alone is enough for assenting Catholics to accept it. But there doesn't seem to be any basis for this belief in Scripture and I don't understand what is gained by believing it.

To me it seems rooted in a medieval error that virginity or even celibacy is somehow holier than sex and marriage.

It is believed because is true and has always been taught by the Church. Why make something like that up?

Mary is the spouse of God the Holy Spirit, The daughter of God the Father, and the mother of God the Son.
 
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Light of the East

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1) those who complied the New Testament wrote that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

2) There is no mention in the New Testament of Mary as a queen, Mary as a perpetual virgin, Mary is to be prayed to, that Mary can answer prayers, that Mary hears your prayers, that Mary can work miracles, that Mary was perfect, that Mary had no other children. None of that. You'd think if any of it was true or necessary for our faith, that it would've been written about! Jesus would've said something. There'd be stories of people bowing to Mary, praying to Mary, Mary healing or getting involved in Christ's ministry. NONE OF IT HAPPENED. It's not there.

3) Show me a verse that says any of the above and I'll become a Catholic today.


No, you wouldn't. I've answered such requests from Protestants before and they always back down from that promise saying "Well, that's your interpretation" or "You are mishandling the Word of God" or some other sort of weasel language which gets them off the hook.

Show me where your particular denomination existed in the first century and I'll tank my Catholic conversion and go back to being a Protestant. How is it that you guys always have the nerve to act as if the Christians and pastors of the first three centuries were lame-brained idiots who got everything wrong until the Protestant Revolution came around?
 
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Light of the East

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Thanks for this list. Does this about sum it up? I don't find this very compelling. Are you convinced by this?

I am convinced because the Church teaches it. Period. The problem with Protestantism is that everyone thinks that he is his own authority on what is right and wrong and the truth about God and Christ. Looking at the thousands of denominations with hundreds of different and competing doctrines, I would say that is not working out real well as far as finding out truth.

Why is it that you believe that you and your assembly have a lock on the truth and no one else? Why is it that you believe that only your assembly is led by the Holy Spirit and not any other, and especially not the Catholic Church?

St. Paul states that the Church is the "pillar and ground of truth." Jesus said that if a man did not listen to the Church, he should be treated as an infidel (unbeliever). The Church is the center of truth, which is why it is the Catholic Church that has been so attacked over the ages and Protestantism more or less left alone.
 
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brightlights

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I am convinced because the Church teaches it. Period. The problem with Protestantism is that everyone thinks that he is his own authority on what is right and wrong and the truth about God and Christ. Looking at the thousands of denominations with hundreds of different and competing doctrines, I would say that is not working out real well as far as finding out truth.

I think that God alone has authority. I'm willing to listen to him through his word. I'm willing to listen to any church or preacher who preaches his word. But if they make claims that are not based on his word then I will not readily accept them.

Why is it that you believe that you and your assembly have a lock on the truth and no one else? Why is it that you believe that only your assembly is led by the Holy Spirit and not any other, and especially not the Catholic Church?

I do not believe, like the Romans do, that my church is the only church or that we have a monopoly on truth. I do, however, believe that the word of God is true and that any church teaching it ought to be listened to. Any doctrines not based on the word of God need not be accepted.

So I'm willing to accept PV if it can be established from Scripture. Since it cannot be, I do not accept it.

St. Paul states that the Church is the "pillar and ground of truth." Jesus said that if a man did not listen to the Church, he should be treated as an infidel (unbeliever). The Church is the center of truth, which is why it is the Catholic Church that has been so attacked over the ages and Protestantism more or less left alone.

The church only has authority when she is teaching the word of God. When she is teaching her own ideas she has no authority. It's always been this way since the establishment of the church with Abraham.
 
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brightlights

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It is believed because is true and has always been taught by the Church. Why make something like that up?

Mary is the spouse of God the Holy Spirit, The daughter of God the Father, and the mother of God the Son.

"Spouse of the God the Holy Spirit". That's one I've not heard before. This is where I think Mary veneration goes too far and becomes biblically unwarranted.

As to why make something like that up: I don't know. People, church leaders included, contrive false doctrines all the time. I'm sure some have some interesting theories as to why this particular doctrine was formulated.
 
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brightlights

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Your own theology may not make the connection.
But the Theology of the Perpetual Virginity does make that connection.

The Bible connects Jesus to "the word of God". But the Bible does not connect Mary to "the word of God". So which theology is a better representation of the Bible?
 
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Ok, it is my firm belief that catholics will go to hell, no amount of sincerity following the wrong religion when the right one was presented to you freely, will do... just as a sincere satanist will go to hell if presented with their Saviour Jesus Christ and having rejected His mercy and grace. Maryianism is babylonianism, nothing else. Being smug doesn't work either, so keep your 'mother church' rhetoric and 'saint' quotations for judgement day. Ok, Mary didn't remain a virgin after the birth of Christ, we know this because her other children are mentioned in the bible. This is clear from the text, to infer that these were spiritual brothers and sisters then you would have to explain why Jesus never referred to His disciples as brothers in the same way.... And if Joseph was a widower with an already large family (oh my, how did that stupidity arise?) then where were they at the birth of Jesus? They all had to go to Bethlehem as well, it would have been easier and safer (given Mary's condition) to have all gone together and taken their own accommodation as was the custom in those days when a large group of people had to travel, so it's all utter pants really, designed to give the catholics some kind of validity.... None of it is true and catholicism IS babylonianism nothing else... come out of her, repent and turn to your saviour Jesus Christ
 
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Thursday

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"Spouse of the God the Holy Spirit". That's one I've not heard before. This is where I think Mary veneration goes too far and becomes biblically unwarranted.

As to why make something like that up: I don't know. People, church leaders included, contrive false doctrines all the time. I'm sure some have some interesting theories as to why this particular doctrine was formulated.

They didn't make it up. Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and bore him a son.

Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. She bore the Word in her womb.
 
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DeepWater

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Oddly enough, Sacred Scripture gives no direct indication that she ever lost her virginity.

Really?
What gave you that idea, as you didnt get it from a Bible.
The New Testament said that Mary had other children, and not just Jesus.
Will you say she adopted them all, as there are quite a few.
Will you say that "children" is a mistranslation regarding Mary's "children".
 
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Thursday

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Really?
What gave you that idea, as you didnt get it from a Bible.
The New Testament said that Mary had other children, and not just Jesus.
Will you say she adopted them all, as there are quite a few.
Will you say that "children" is a mistranslation regarding Mary's "children".


It says no such thing.

Jesus had Brothers? | Catholic Answers
 
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brightlights

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They didn't make it up. Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and bore him a son.

Nowhere in Scripture is Mary called the bride of God the Holy Spirit. She was married to Joseph of Nazareth. Are you ready to claim that the Holy Spirit committed adultery?

Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. She bore the Word in her womb.

Where in Scripture does it say this?
 
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