Why be Kosher?

[Charlesinflorida]

I dont accept your interpretaion of this at all. The Catholic Church preventing Preists from marriage, and it's a good institution of God. And who goes around eating snakes for goodness sake, not many.

And if you will notice I did not highlight abstaining from marriage concerning your belief. But apparently you refused to see that.

I know that you didn't highlight that part about marriage, but it is a clue as to what Paul is speaking of. He is not refering to Jewish practices as you had assumed. He was speaking of asceticism and gnosticim, common cults in that day.

You might be surprised how many people DO eat snakes. They are very common food throughout Asia, which is a whole bunch of people. How about Pork, "the other white meat". Take a stroll down the meat section of any U S or canadian store and see if there is not more Pork than Beef. I think you would be surprised.

Lynne, Why do the Catholics insist on celebate priests. Where does that come from? Certainly not the religion of Jesus or his disciples.

Again I will ask you, or anyone else who would like to answer, why does the church celebrate the birth of Jesus on Dec. 25th?

Charles in Florida

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Charles In Florida:
This forum is Charismatic, not Messianc Judaism.

Before you or your foreathers were Charismatic, they were Messianic. Because that is the faith of the disciples and the religion they pacticed and taught. Recognizing the gifts makes you Charismatic. Well the first church of the disciples also believed and exercised the gifts of the spirit, as do I. So by precise definition I am MORE Charismatic than you are!

The first church believed in the Baptism of the spirit, exercised the gifts of the spirit were saved by faith, AND ate Kosher, observed the biblical feast days and Sabbath, and in General Kept the law.

Charles in Florida

 

[Trish1947]

I know that you didn't highlight that part about marriage, but it is a clue as to what Paul is speaking of. He is not refering to Jewish practices as you had assumed. He was speaking of asceticism and gnosticim, common cults in that day.

You might be surprised how many people DO eat snakes. They are very common food throughout Asia, which is a whole bunch of people. How about Pork, "the other white meat". Take a stroll down the meat section of any U S or canadian store and see if there is not more Pork than Beef. I think you would be surprised.

Lynne, Why does the Catholics insist on celebate priests. Where does that come from? Certainly not the religion of Jesus or his disciples.

Again I will ask you, or anyone else who would like to answer, why does the church celebrate he birth o Jesus on Dec. 25th?

Charles in Florida

The thing is Charles you think that you can come on this site who accept you freely, as long as you dont step on our toes as Chrismatics, as far as what they believe. We do not say anything against you wanting to follow the Tora/ kosher foods or what ever. But please why do you think that your going to convience us other wise? Christmatics are pretty rooted in what they believe and received. But all you do is try to show us where we are wrong in our belief, and you seem to have an ergency in your posts to convience us before its too late for us.. Whats the deal? You do exactly what the Bible says not to do. One esteames a day important, or food, another in Christ does not. I dont think you have the right to do that.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

I was Charismatic back in its beginings, early 70's. I was a sheherd in a methodist church and was asked to leave that church because of being charismatic. When people began to be healed when we prayed for them, the minister was threatened. After I left that church the Lord put a eal burden on my heart to look where other preachers were not looked to discover what the first church was really like, what they believed and how they lived. What I disovered was a lot diferent than any church I had been in. As I continued to seek the Lords face on this, I was specifically told that I was not to become part of any denomination, and that He was going to send me into vaious places, and that I would be received in His name but would not be received in the name of a denomination. And that has happened over many times. I have taught in many places, in churches and small groups, concerning the Hebraic roots of the faith. I have seen this word received by many people of various faiths as they discovered a new depth to their faith and a deeper understanding of God and his plan of salvation. I am trying to share that with you now. Some will recive it, some wil lnot.

I am not really trying to show you where you are wrong, as much as I am trying to show you something more, just as once many who were presbyterian, or lutheren, or methodist, or catholic, and then disovered something more in beoming Charismatic, now I too show you another feature beyond the gifts that have been lost to the church. We should not stop looking until we get back to the original. Lets not stop half way, or only after getting the gifts. There is more.

Charles in Florida

 

[Trish1947]

I was Charismatic back in its beginings, early 70's. I was a sheherd in a methodist church and was asked to leave that church because of being charismatic. When people began to be healed when we prayed for them, the minister was threatened. After I left that church the Lord put a eal burden on my heart to look where other preachers were not looked to discover what the first church was really like, what they believed and how they lived. What I disovered was a lot diferent than any church I had been in. As I continued to seek the Lords face on this, I was specifically told that I was not to become part of any denomination, and that He was going to send me into vaious places, and that I would be received in His name but would not be received in the name of a denomination. And that has happened oer many times. I have taught in many places, in churches and small groups, concerning the Hebraic roots of the faith. I have seen this word received by many people of various faiths as they discovered a new depth to their faith and a deeper understanding of God and his plan of salvation. I am trying to share that with you now. Some will recive it, some wil lnot.

I am not really trying to show you where you are wrong, as much as I am trying to show you something more, just as once many who were presbyterian, or lutheren, or methodist, or catholic, and then disovered something more in beoming Charismatic, now I too show you another eature beyond the gifts that have been lost to the church. We should not stop looking until we get back to the original. Lets not stop half way, or only after geting the gifts. There is more.

Charles in Florida

Well to me all things have become NEW, Old things have passed away. And you said it in your own words.. we should not stop until we get back to the old... NO THANK YOU!!

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Well to me all things have become NEW, Old things have passed away. And you said it in your own words.. we should not stop until we get back to the old... NO THANK YOU!!

Sorry but you misquoted me. I said we should not stop until we get back to the ORIGINAL. (The church as it was in the beginning under the sound leadership of men who actually knew and walked this earth with Messiah Yeshua. Not men who ompromised with Pagans 300 years later.)

Charles in Florida

 

[Trish1947]

Before you or your foreathers were Charismatic, they were Messianic. Because that is the faith of the disciples and the religion they pacticed and taught. Recognizing the gifts makes you Charismatic. Well the first church of the disciples also believed and exercised the gifts of the spirit, as do I. So by precise definition I am MORE Charismatic than you are!

The first church believed in the Baptism of the spirit, exercised the gifts of the spirit were saved by faith, AND ate Kosher, observed the biblical feast days and Sabbath, and in General Kept the law.

Charles in Florida

I find this statement an affront to our faith. You dont know us at all Charles, Your statement that you are more Charismatic than others, because you eat kosher is a very sad statement indeed. But I'm not going to argue this point with you any more. Its hard to discuss something with someone that thinks they are in a better position in Christ because they eat kosher. That I will leave alone. It's just not worth commenting on.

I am aware of what the Bible says will be the doctrine of the last days. Preaching food, and what not to eat, or what days to observe. That I will pay attention to.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Trish,

That statement was not made to you. It was made to Andrew? who questioned my right to post in this forum. All I am saying is that the recognition of the gifts makes you charismatic, and I believe that, but so did the first church, who was also Messainic. Being Messianic does not prevent you from also being charismatic. I think perhaps you are only offened because you can not defend your position in the face of scripture. Because the truth is the first church under the leadership of the disciples were Kosher eating, Tallit wearing, Torah observant Jews and not neo-pentecostals.

Charles in Florida

 

[Trish1947]

Trish,

That statement was not made to you. It was made to Andrew? who questioned my right to post in this forum. All I am saying is that the recognition of the gifts makes you charismatic, and I believe that, but so did the first church, who was also Messainic. Being Messianic does not prevent you from also being charismatic. I think perhaps you are only offened because you can not defend your position in the face of scripture. Because the truth is the first church under the leadership of the disciples were Kosher eating, Tallit wearing, Torah observant Jews and not neo-pentecostals.

Charles in Florida

So your wanting to make every one a Jew? The Gentiles did not follow these laws of wearing a Tallit, or eating Kosher foods. You cannot make us all Jews, Charles.

I did not question your right to post in this forum. I did say you have no right to judge us in what we eat or days we observe.

And you say that I'm only offended because I can't back things up by scripture. I think I did just that!! But of coarse, every scripture thats posted, you have your own interpretation of what it means. And for some reason it means something all together different than most people would see it. Your not an "insider" into the things of God, Charles, We all have been Baptised into one Body.

 

[simchat_torah]

Mod Hat On:

I'm not a moderator in the Charasmatic section, but this issue seems rather pressing, so I shall intervene.

Charles, While I respect your efforts in declaring what you believe, the forum has a particular type of setup that you are violating. I'm not sure if these rules have changed in or abscence, but allow me to explain them to you...

You have selected the "messianic" icon. This means you are free to *debate* in the Messianic section. You may also debate in the IDD forums. However, in any other congregation section you must refrain from debate. You may ask questions, share your opinion (within reason, and as long as it doesn't constitute debate), etc. However, you are forbidden from debating in the charasmatic section... unless you choose to wear the charasmatic icon instead of the Messianic one (the torah scroll).

So, I'll tell you what...
I'm going to make a deal with everyone in this thread:
Each of you make a closing argument. Then, if you prefer, myself or another moderator will move this thread into the IDD section so the debate may continue. Otherwise, the issue is closed.


Mod Hat Off.

Shalom,
Yafet.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Trish,

Here is the decision about what the Gentiles who are in the process of turning to faith should do. Remember too that this is a point of entry and not an end all Goal.

[19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: [20] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Two of these are Kosher laws and the other are Jewish moral law. This is for Gentiles. But lets not stop at verse 20. Lets go on to what the Church always hides behind there backs, verse 21. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

These Gentiles are to go to he synagogues each in his own town and learn Moshe (which is shorthand or the law). And they are to do so on Sabbath as all other Jewish men. The synagogue was the only place that the scriptures could be found, and the only place where mature teachers were to be found. The first requirements concerning blood and meat strangled and morality are to be observed so that these new believers would not be an offence to the Jewish believers who were more trained in Torah, and to demonstrate they had separated from Pagan things, (which are reflected in those prohibitions) It was a point of entry. They were expected to learn and progress from that point.

Trish you say that Gentiles did not do those Jewish things. Let me ask you then, do you really think that they would have been allowed to continue in the synagogue if they were not going to follow the instructions of God and do what he told them to do? I do not think they would be taking part in the prayer services without a prayer shawl. In the first century it was considered a great honor to be a part of the synagogue fellowship. The problem was that some Gentiles like those in Galatia were so taken with their new status that they began to over do it and put more weight on their Jewish religious activities and law keeping than their faith. They were becoming legalistic, which is an error. So Paul reigns them back in pretty harshly doesn't he. These folks had been so taken with all the Jewishness that they forgot that they could not earn their own salvation through ritual or law. Some (not all) Jews were telling them that they had to become circumcised full Jewish converts before they could be saved by the Jewish Messiah. This is error. Law does not save you. Faith does. Law is what you do in response to faith. By that I mean you walk in obedience to Gods instructions.

Charles in Florida

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Yaphet,

There is a really fine line between discussion and debating. Sorry if I crossed over on that one. I apologise to the board and trish as well. I had already posted before I saw your moderator statement above, so I am closed or will do as you request.

Charles in Florida

 

[Perceivence]

6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Why is Paul speaking as if the two Covenants are different in the respects we're talking about here?

15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
17"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

I am certain that when Paul chided Peter it wasn't because Peter was teaching that we are saved by observance of the law. Thus, it must mean that the word "justified" here refers to our actions after salvation. Observation of the Law does not justify us, God's grace does. For we have died to the law so that we may live for God by faith and his Holy Spirit. We cannot gain righteousness by observance of the law - observing the law after salvation cannot make us righteous - it is faith in God and following the Holy Spirit that makes us righteous.

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

The goal of righteousness cannot be found on the road of observance of the law.

19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Christ frees us from the legalistic obedience of the Law before his coming. Our justification is now by faith in God. Since Christ has come, died and been resurrected, we are no longer under the supervision of the Law.

2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Reverting to the Law alienates us from Christ and robs us of the Christian justification by His grace.

 

[Perceivence]

There's a Charismatic icon?

Charles says he's Charismatic so, whether or not he's Messianic, he should be allowed to debate on this forum. The Charismatic Movement is not limited to any Denomination, so it's unfair to say that because he's Messianic he is not allowed to debate here.

Or so goes my understanding of the rules

 

[Trish1947]

Charles I'm sorry that it went this far. But, it would be good even though you are a Charismatic that you give us a bit of a break in our understanding of the scriptures. The food laws, and Tora laws are very important to you, but not for the majority of Chrismatics. And I dont know how we will be able to discuss this without getting into a heated debate. I really dont know how that can be worked out. It will always present some sort of debate.

 

[Andrew]

It was made to Andrew? who questioned my right to post in this forum. All I am saying is that the recognition of the gifts makes you charismatic,

It wasnt me. It was The ScottsMan, and I agree with him.

there are always one or two who claim to be charismatic, yet come here to preach things that are really at odds with the charismatic movement. It is one thing to just claim you are charismatic (anyone can do that), but your words/doctrines and teachings will, sooner or later, really show what "denom" you belong to. In truth, charles, you are more messianic judaism than charismatic.

There are Jews who are Christian and Jews who are Messianic Judaism. The first live freely under the NC of grace while the latter, though they accept Christ as Messiah, still keep the ceremonial and moral laws, and incorporate it into the NC -- mixing law with grace.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Charles,


What do you mean by "recognition of the gifts"?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

*MOD HAT ON*

THERE SHOULD BE NO CHALLENGING OF MODERATOR ACTION IN OPEN FORUM. IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS ASK VIA PM

*MOD HAT OFF*

 

[simchat_torah]

Charles says he's Charismatic so, whether or not he's Messianic, he should be allowed to debate on this forum.

Allow me to tell you a little about myself...

I was raised in a highly charasmatic enviornment. Mike Bickle was my youth group leader. I went to school under the likes of Gareth Dufty, Paul Cain, and Bryn Jones. I personally know Michael Brown. I had family on the prayer team at the Pensacola/Brownsville revival. I did a discipleship training course under Tommy Tenny. Both of my grandfathers are charasmatic pastors (both sides of my family are of Jewish ancestory btw... but the generaion before my grandparents escaped from Europe during WWII and have since become christians).

This list goes on and on. I could list off most every major player in the chrasmatic arena and my connection to them.

However, I have chosen to express my faith through the Messianic faith. This is in obvious conflict with the typical charasmatic doctrine on many levels. I believe Torah is for today. I keep Kosher, honor the Sabbath, follow Niddah, and attend a synagogue, not a church...

While some of my theology may be (or was) charasmatic, I would be in violation of the forum rules by posting here on a moral level. Nearly every topic I would like to discuss would be along the lines of a debate. Most of what I believe can not be accepted by the general populace of the Charasmatic section.

I think we have to evaluate ourselves and choose where we stand. These simple congregational divisions are here only for the simplicity of providing a safe harbor for each group. If the Messianic section did not have the rules in place that keeps others from debating in there we would have arguments every hour from non-MJ members. Just think about the debates that would rage on between the Catholic and Protestant members! These simple rules aren't here to divide us as a body, but are in place to provide a safe enviornment where you don't have to worry about someone else belittling you or questioning your every stance.

If you would like to debate among your fellow believers, the IDD forums is set up for that.
If you would simply like to discuss theology on a cross-denominational platform, the General Theology section is there for you.

However, if each of us were allowed to invade the other's personal space, these forums would not operate as smoothly. This is about the 5th online forum I've been a regular poster at. I have since left all the others officially (though I may visit from time to time). On every other forum debate ensues on every level. There is no safe harbor. It gets to you after awhile. It begins to make you bitter and post defensively.

I have found a personal joy in the way these forums are set up. If I'd like to interact with you charasmatics, I am free to do so in either IDD, General theology, and many other places. I can even come here and post a little hello, or an encouragement. But this section is your refuge.

We simply can't allow the rules to be bent because someone may have a charasmatic leaning. One of my good friends in college was a Charasmatic Catholic. Obviously there would be difficulties with him posting in this section as he would be harassed on his catholic theology, etc.

This is why we have these safe guards set in place.

For you, the poster.

Appreciate them.

Shalom!
Yafet.

 

[LynneClomina]

thank you, yafet.

Lynne