Why Atheism?

[GryffinSong]

WHAT!!! You deny the divinity of "He Of The Noodly Appendage"?!?!

I actually saw a car the other day with an FSM bumper sticker. I REALLY wanted to follow them and say "hi!"

 

[Caitlin.ann]

I never deny the divinity of noodly appendates.

 

[Morcova]

Again, I refuse to do the homework for the Atheists. I'm probably going to make that my signature pretty soon.

Yomin you also refuse to do your own homework too.

 

[Morcova]

I think the confusion lies in the obvious. Secularists live by "an eye for an eye." that is, to exact revenge on your enemy. Yeshua then says, no; that you should instead love your enemies.

You mean the eye for an eye dictated in your holy book?

Have you even read your own bible?

 

[Morcova]

He seems to live inside his own private universe -- one which revolves around him.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Doesn't he remind you of Yomin Postelnik? All the whining about Dawkins site and such.... after the intellectual beating he got here last time he posted under his name I see why he would start using a sock.

 

[Holy Roller]

Some do, some don't it's basically an assumption this is an absolute. Let's face it for those who don't study theology or look at Christianity from an objective and open mind will naturally see it as an absurity or as negative. Christians are guilty of the same exact thing, like you. You seem to be attempted to group all of us skeptics together under a sterotypical umbrella and I know people who think I'm a terrible, bad person due to not beliving in God. Being a skeptic can be hard. If you try to use scriptual and non-philosophical arguments in a middle of a anti-theist compound, you will tend to get bashed like you would in any other forum (despite ideology).

But if I were at that anti-theist compound and if I were to get bashed as you say, would the anti-theists be justified? You'd likely say yes, based on the fact that I am at an anti-theist compound.
And that's what's got me curious about the mods here--they seem to allow limited theist-bashing from the Atheists, yet get stern when a theist gets critical of the Atheist cloth.

Also, are you so sure that Christianity would be viewed by the person with an open mind as absurd or a negative? Concepts central to the tenets of Christianity are all but proven implanted in our genetic code--concepts like charity, forgiveness, love. How can these tenets appear negative or absurd? Is the idea of a Savior dying for our sins negative or absurd? The reasoning behind it spans three-thousand years, so the idea of an ultimate, human sacrifice, and the bringing of the temple (all human communities hav temples) into man's spirit is social evolution of the highest order, IMHO, and this is coming from someone who was adept in integral/differential calculus at age 16.
How can such wondrous, beautiful constructs such as the tenets of Christianity be seen as negative? Absurd? Assuming the person has the requisite open mind, as you say?

You got to admit the OT is pretty sketchy and takes either a lot of looking into/studying the context either that or a very dedicated and almost blind belief to accept it as literal fact (without reading it from a certain way or particular context). Religion in general is something that is really larger-than-life or mystical and tends to be something outside of the traditional scientific line of thought. Let's face it Christianity from a certain point of view can be put on the same level as mythology

Your opinion of Christianity is faulty and your understanding of it is very limited. Do not regard this as an offense or an attack of some sort; it has to be seen as constructive criticism, because I was there once. I can't contribute anything more here, because you have to learn about the subject in far greater depth than what's practical here. It should be enough for you to know at this point that your underatnding of Christianity is lacking. Not a bad thing; I'll admit my understanding of partial differential equations is also lacking. It's not a bad thing; if I want a clearer opinion on certain aspects of partial differential equations, I'll dust off the books and get to work.

even though I see a bit more substance in it especially in the NT.

I suspect the only substance you see in the NT is the 'love your neighbor' part. But Christianity is far more than that from a polemic and a philosophical standpoint. Some things seem to transcend humanity itself.

And to be honest Christians/Jews and Christianity/Judaism can make itself quite an easy target thanks to a lot of the ignorant practicers that follow the belief systems and the actions or things people do that is inspired by their belief and sometimes the sheer lack of comunication between the parties.

Again, this is the painting with the broad brush. There are the highly publicised crackpots. Do most the Christians here (remembering that I'm a Jew) come off to you as a Jerry Falwell crackpot? Or do they seem to practice what Yeshua preaches? I'd have to say it's the latter.
Knowing this then, why do you paint with the broad brush, fully admitting that most Christians aren't Falwell crackpots?

I know quite a few intellgent religious people, and I don't treat them any differently because of their beliefs. We just have to draw the line between those who are like Fred Phelps and those like St. Thomas Aquinas.

That's my $20

If there's one thing I want to leave with any skeptic, it's Luke 6:27. That is the defining scripture for me. It seems to point to divinity, as no man is really capable of saying something so beautiful and downright G-dly.
How can the skeptic accuse Christianity of being 'negative' or 'absurd' afther having read Luke 6:27? I don't get it!
It can't be the Ressurection, because that symbolises life triumphing over death. Death is that place of spiritual corruptitude.
It can't be the transfiguration of Yeshua, either, since the transfiguration ties both testaments together.
It can't be the Revelation of St. John. Some reading is absurd-sounding (heaven being supported by 12 piillars. Symbolic in its significance, yes, but streets paved with gold? Pearl gates?), but systematically points to a final ending of Noah's proportions. You can deny prophesy, and you'll still be OK, but the important thing is to realise that the prophesy of St. John is his interpretation and his alone, written down as scripture. Critique it all you wish, it should not detract from the overall message of salvation.

 

[Morcova]

Dude. I don't think I'm Christian.
I'm...
Like...
Jewish.

No, you are not jewish. You are a christian who pretends to be jewish.

The jews are well known for not believing that christ was the son of god.

 

[Holy Roller]

If that is the case you should have seen it...

The poster is very correct though, just because some Atheists treat Atheism like a religion of science with the Dawkins god... does not mean we all feel that way. Atheism is simply the rejection of gods, it is only recently that additional titles have been added to it to make specific types of Atheism.

But with the rejection of G-d follows the rejection of what G-d stands for. Many reject G-d because immorality appeals to them. I get very critical of these types...

 

[Caitlin.ann]

Remember HR, plank in the eye, it applies to you as well as Christians I daresay.

 

[Holy Roller]

Doesn't he remind you of Yomin Postelnik? All the whining about Dawkins site and such.... after the intellectual beating he got here last time he posted under his name I see why he would start using a sock.

Dude, you're clueless. Google the guy's name, for cryin' out loud. He was harassed severely by the Atheists, who once again demonstrated an utter lack of class, manners and tact.
(for those of you who don't know, Yomin posted here briefly in the natural sciences forum. He has a linkedin account, and from what I can tell is a professional in M & A (mergers and acquisition) and the loan industry.
He tried to posit a fallibility with the Atheist stance (much as I'm doing), and posted at the Dawkins site. Like me, the Atheists in their iniquities, banned him because of his high-grade intellect; it wasn't due to a 'beating'. Those simpletons at that dawkins site are some of the boorish dullards I ever encountered on an internet message board. And I posted on some redneckish automobile boards in my time, so I know boorish dullars when I see them.
Yomin actually seems like a decent fellow from what I can tell...)

 

[Holy Roller]

Remember HR, plank in the eye, it applies to you as well as Christians I daresay.

Ooh, you even got the English accent!

 

[Caitlin.ann]

Ooh, you even got the English accent!

Or how about this is just the way I talk?

 

[Holy Roller]

No, you are not jewish. You are a christian who pretends to be jewish.

The jews are well known for not believing that christ was the son of god.

Do you see guys? This post is exactly what I mean! I mean this poster, as with many Atheists, seems to think everyone has an ulterior motive! This is what corruption of the spirit causes; it causes thinking of this order. With it will come other forms of spiritual diseases, of course, such as envy, strife, back-biting...
Do not accuse me of being hard on Atheists! How can you? There is no denying what I'm saying is correct!
Morcova: What happens after a mod runs an IP address check on my IP and Yomin's IP? What happens if I were to submit some of my activities at synagogue (Beth Israel, San Diego)? What then? Well? Sheepishly come back and say you're sorry? Only to accuse people of ulterior motives later on?

To those of you who think I'm a little harsh on some Ahteists, take heed...

 

[franklin]

maybe this has been asked before but i'm just curious. why don't you believe in anything?

Why atheism?

Basically because it is very liberating for the rational human mind as it enables one to think and reason and accept the world we live in as natural. Atheism is the complete emancipation of the mind from superstition.

As for why you think atheist don't believe in anything? I don't have a clue as to where you have learned that misguided notion but as an atheist/clear thinker, one of the main things I cherish most of all is being kind to my fellow human being. I don't find it necessary to look in some primitive religious book to learn how to not harm others.

In short, atheism is sanity. It is the logical and rational view of the natural world we live in and the right attitude towards humankind.

 

[Julina]

well, this has turned into quiite an interesting thread...

so, did anything specifically gear you away from religion? like some certain people?

 

[Caitlin.ann]

well, this has turned into quiite an interesting thread...

so, did anything specifically gear you away from religion? like some certain people?

Yes. People like SOF and HR and AV.

 

[Holy Roller]

Why atheism?

Basically because it is very liberating for the rational human mind as it enables one to think and reason and accept the world we live in as natural. Atheism is the complete emancipation of the mind from superstition.

As for why you think atheist don't believe in anything? I don't have a clue as to where you have learned that misguided notion but as an atheist/clear thinker, one of the main things I cherish most of all is being kind to my fellow human being. I don't find it necessary to look in some primitive religious book to learn how to not harm others.

In short, atheism is sanity. It is the logical and rational view of the natural world we live in and the right attitude towards humankind.

Do not be mislead, flock, when they try to join "clear-thinker" up to the word "Atheist", since they are antonyms, if anything. Albert Einstein said so. He said that science without religion is lame (and religion without science is blind).
Atheists will usually pull this trick to try and fool people. It's the oldest trick in the book.

Those of you with a skeptic's mind, if you don't want to follow what I'm saying (I urge you to do, however, for reason's sake), then at least start with what Einstein said. Do not be moved.

This trick they pull is as obnoxious as the "put Darwin's pic next to Dawkins pic" trick. Don't fall for it.

 

[Bombila]

Doesn't he remind you of Yomin Postelnik? All the whining about Dawkins site and such.... after the intellectual beating he got here last time he posted under his name I see why he would start using a sock.

FYI, that individual has harassed and slandered a blogger to such an extent and so persistently that the matter is now in the hands of lawyers.

But I don't think HR is YP.

 

[IBM]

But if I were at that anti-theist compound and if I were to get bashed as you say, would the anti-theists be justified? You'd likely say yes, based on the fact that I am at an anti-theist compound.
And that's what's got me curious about the mods here--they seem to allow limited theist-bashing from the Atheists, yet get stern when a theist gets critical of the Atheist cloth.

I would say it depends on what you were doing, and like I mentioned before or what you were doing on the Dawkins form or similar form, which is a community for those who share their views and discuss their issue, personally amongst themselves.

Also, are you so sure that Christianity would be viewed by the person with an open mind as absurd or a negative? Concepts central to the tenets of Christianity are all but proven implanted in our genetic code--concepts like charity, forgiveness, love.

Morality is relative good sir. The things that exist in nature are self-interest and social solidarity. From my point of view human nature in itself doesn't exist. The only thing humans are programmed to do is acquire the needed resources to survive, reproduce to continue the cycle, and coordinate their individual self interests together to form a collective interest. Groups increase chances of survival and humans are able to rationalize amongst themselves what's beneficial and not beneficial. A basic understanding of such has been developed over our 150,000 years of experience.

How can these tenets appear negative or absurd?

Is the idea of a Savior dying for our sins negative or absurd?

I already explained that those idea are not exclusivly christian or absolute entities and despite the sacrifice of Jesus doesn't excuse the other wrongs or logical fallicies I see in religion.

The reasoning behind it spans three-thousand years, so the idea of an ultimate, human sacrifice, and the bringing of the temple (all human communities hav temples) into man's spirit is social evolution of the highest order, IMHO, and this is coming from someone who was adept in integral/differential calculus at age 16.

Well to skip to the last part of the post good for you man, about the calculus, good for you.

How can such wondrous, beautiful constructs such as the tenets of Christianity be seen as negative? Absurd? Assuming the person has the requisite open mind, as you say?

Again they are not exclusivly christian and they don't account for the other flaws or negativity I see in the religious belief. The other Abrahamic faiths have similar values, and even pagan ones do does that make the completely 110% logical and true.

Your opinion of Christianity is faulty and your understanding of it is very limited.

Nope I believe you underestimate my knowledge of it.

Do not regard this as an offense or an attack of some sort; it has to be seen as constructive criticism, because I was there once.

Nope not really, I just think your arguments were a bit weaker and that you misunderstand where I'm coming from. I just feel you confrontal attitude is something that is uneeded when debating.

I can't contribute anything more here, because you have to learn about the subject in far greater depth than what's practical here. It should be enough for you to know at this point that your underatnding of Christianity is lacking.

Again perhaps I'm not the biggest theologian of all time but I have quite a solid background in Christianity. I am a regular in debate forums (and am usually said to be very tolerant), I come from a religious background, went to religious schools, read some books. Don't assume or make the mistake of telling me what I know and don't know.

I suspect the only substance you see in the NT is the 'love your neighbor' part. But Christianity is far more than that from a polemic and a philosophical standpoint. Some things seem to transcend humanity itself.

Well that's up for debate and a manner of faith if aspects in life transcend the material realm. Life is a mystery, and nothing is certain (despite you believing it to be so).

Again, this is the painting with the broad brush. There are the highly publicised crackpots. Do most the Christians here (remembering that I'm a Jew) come off to you as a Jerry Falwell crackpot? Or do they seem to practice what Yeshua preaches? I'd have to say it's the latter.
Knowing this then, why do you paint with the broad brush, fully admitting that most Christians aren't Falwell crackpots?

No. I never said most christians did. I feel most christians are simply misled. I though won't say that crackpots like Falwell don't exist and you can't deny it. I simply said it is up to us to draw the line and split the theoretical good from the theoretical bad. That's all I was saying.

If there's one thing I want to leave with any skeptic, it's Luke 6:27. That is the defining scripture for me. It seems to point to divinity, as no man is really capable of saying something so beautiful and downright G-dly.
How can the skeptic accuse Christianity of being 'negative' or 'absurd' afther having read Luke 6:27?

Well like I said it varies. I do repect certain parts and core ideas of Christianity I don't like the absolutist and other questionable irational qualities about it which I'd glady expand on at a later time.

I don't get it!
It can't be the Ressurection, because that symbolises life triumphing over death. Death is that place of spiritual corruptitude.
It can't be the transfiguration of Yeshua, either, since the transfiguration ties both testaments together.
It can't be the Revelation of St. John. Some reading is absurd-sounding (heaven being supported by 12 piillars. Symbolic in its significance, yes, but streets paved with gold? Pearl gates?), but systematically points to a final ending of Noah's proportions. You can deny prophesy, and you'll still be OK, but the important thing is to realise that the prophesy of St. John is his interpretation and his alone, written down as scripture. Critique it all you wish, it should not detract from the overall message of salvation.

Salvation for a minority that is thrown into the real world and told to find the right path or be damned? Living in a reality based on where you are born, the environment where you live, and it your free will which is based on your beliefs and reality all based on chance. Some have it better than others and its an unequal race where only a few suceeed, and many fall. Tell me do you believe in predestination? Can their be free will when your environment dictates it? Is an eternity of punishment justifiable for the short time, life, in comparison to short things out? There are many questions Christianity bring about. What makes Christianity better than any other religious belief? You will probably say you have felt its effects in your life, which everyone from opposing religious beliefs say. I believe that to be pshycological and religion to be based from social and culutural beginnings. I though don't rule out the super-natural entirely.

 

[Morcova]

Dude, you're clueless. Google the guy's name, for cryin' out loud. He was harassed severely by the Atheists, who once again demonstrated an utter lack of class, manners and tact.
(for those of you who don't know, Yomin posted here briefly in the natural sciences forum. He has a linkedin account, and from what I can tell is a professional in M & A (mergers and acquisition) and the loan industry.
He tried to posit a fallibility with the Atheist stance (much as I'm doing), and posted at the Dawkins site. Like me, the Atheists in their iniquities, banned him because of his high-grade intellect; it wasn't due to a 'beating'.

LOL Yomin, you weren't harassed, you posted a poorly thought out argument and it was torn apart. Then in your outrage you proceeded to go to the persons wiki and alter it claiming he was a pedophile. Then after you were discovered you claimed that despite the fact that you and the person who made the wiki changed had the exact same ip address you didn't do it. Then you claimed that people who googled your name were stalking you.

Isn't it funny how Yomin and "Holy" both have the identicle gripes against atheist? Why they've even been to the exact same forums and experience the exact same things! WOW.

Those simpletons at that dawkins site are some of the boorish dullards I ever encountered on an internet message board. And I posted on some redneckish automobile boards in my time, so I know boorish dullars when I see them.

Yes, yes, yomin we all know you like cars.

Yomin actually seems like a decent fellow from what I can tell...)

And we know how highly you think of yourself.