Why are Woke Western Companies so Inconsistent?

[Ana the Ist]

They've researched the numbers and discovered the number of people that get warm fuzzies from their messages are probably their core demographic, and the ones that would be turned off by it, probably wouldn't buy their products anyways. Of course the message is ultimately polarizing and has political implications, but they are in the game to sell things. And if controversy results in sales, all the better.

For instance: the Gillette ads that people were bashing. Women actually spend alot of money on razors now as compared to men men, due to the popularity of beards, electric shavers, and far less frequent shaving in general among men.

Get woke, go broke? Gillette's 'toxic masculinity' ad via Grey New York haunts P&G as shaving giant takes US$8 billion writedown

Gillette’s infamous “toxic masculinity” ad may cost Procter & Gamble more than anyone imagined in January, reports The Washington Times.

campaignbrief.com

Gillette sales dropped...I don't think that's in debate. True, the ads are cited as only one reason....Given the popularity of beards, the relatively new sources of competition, bur it's pretty well accepted that the ads didn't help.

 

[Ana the Ist]

China is run by an oppressive regime that has no interest in bolstering their own minorities. On this they do align with the "anti-woke"* movement in the US.

There's a huge difference between "bolstering" minorities....open genocide of minorities....and advocating for racial discrimination and special privileges for minorities as the woke do here in the US.

What I am saying is that the number of basketball fans that refuse to follow the NBA because they bow down to the demands of Peking to not cause "trouble" in China is rather small.

Are they? I don't know if that's an issue but the NFL seemed fully aware that kneeling for the anthem was unpopular and costing them viewers. The fact is, making sports overtly political was unpopular.

Likewise the number of basketball fans that have abandoned the NBA because they have supported BLM and related racial justice movements. There are some, but not that many. A lot of the "complainers" are those that never really paid much attention to the NBA. (I have never followed the NBA, other than some causal awareness of things going on, and am not a source of revenue for them, so they really don't have any financial reason to care what my opinion of them is.)

I think various sports teams have put on a virtue signaling display because of the complaints of black players who were getting pressured by the numerous members of BLM

*I'm tired of this term "woke" as it is so ill defined and to the extent it has a "meaning" it only refers to American white/Christian cultural conservative grievances. (Not all complaining about "woke" are white & Christian, some are non-Christian whites and others are non-white Christians, but let's face it, the primary nexus of such is with white American Christians.)

I've never once heard it used in that context. You used it in the context of "bolstering minorities" which is innocuous enough until you realize bolstering = advancing the interests of at the cost of fairness and every other group. Racial justice = racial discrimination. Prison/police reform = siding with criminals against police. Helping the homeless/drug addicted = letting them run rampant in public without consequences.

The "alt-right" didn't like the term "alt-right" because they felt it unfairly associated them with the white supremacists that infiltrated their movement.

The woke however, proudly wore their label, managed to get multiple policy changes implemented and many more considered, and have conclusively proven they're not that bright. They wanted "bail reform" and now criminals run loose in the streets. They wanted "representation" and now every lame reboot has to turn a formerly white character into a gay black one.. I could go on but they haven't so much as had a bad label applied to them as they have been successful in achieving their goals and proven they're incapable of forming a good idea.

Woke only became a negative because the woke are insufferable whiny children who should have been ignored to begin with.

 

[stevevw]

This is part of the problem with the new left and its one I've been pointing out repeatedly for at least a few years now.

They don't actually hold any values.

Imagine if I told you I thought rape was wrong and evil and I am 100% against rape....and then you find out I've raping a bunch of women.

When you confront me with this information....I reply "Yeah but not my wife...I would never rape her."

Do I actually hold some sort of moral value against rape? No....of course not. I would be pro rape in that purely hypothetical scenario.

So when the left says "we're against racism/for diversity" and you point out that doesn't actually include everyone....they go "well yeah...we don't care if anyone is racist towards them."

They aren't actually against racism.

There's a senator or rep or someone who embarrassed some trans activists who were supposed to be part of this shaming session against Republicans for advocating violence against the government on social media or something like that.

This is basically a perfect example. They pretend to have values they care about.....but they don't actually hold any values.

Worse than that they use values to smuggle in ideas and beliefs that can harm. All ideologies have an underpinning noble cause. But the noble cause is used as a trojan horse to push a certain truth they believe in about how the world is and should be. Its a powerful tactic as its hard to argue against noble causes. But like the video shows the trickery and double standards can be exposed.

But sometimes thats hard because another tactic used by ideologues is to just cancel opposing views altogether and never by put in a situation where you can be exposed. In this way only one narrative is heard as the truth is cancelled.

 

[stevevw]

China is run by an oppressive regime that has no interest in bolstering their own minorities. On this they do align with the "anti-woke"* movement in the US.

Yes but much more extreme. But I don't think the Right has the same power it had in years gone by when traditional conservative values ruled policy and society. It seems the Left has had a surge in recent years perhaps partly due to being in a postmodernist society which seems to suit Leftist ideology. Either way far Left or Right they are just as baed as each other in that they impose a restricted view of life on everyone.

What I am saying is that the number of basketball fans that refuse to follow the NBA because they bow down to the demands of Peking to not cause "trouble" in China is rather small.

But its the governments and companies that are bowing down to China that is the problem as they are compromising the freedoms that the West was built on.

Likewise the number of basketball fans that have abandoned the NBA because they have supported BLM and related racial justice movements. There are some, but not that many. A lot of the "complainers" are those that never really paid much attention to the NBA. (I have never followed the NBA, other than some causal awareness of things going on, and am not a source of revenue for them, so they really don't have any financial reason to care what my opinion of them is.)

I think many fans don't really think about the deeper political or ethical issues but rather just want to follow their sport or be entertained. I think sports and entertainment should not be about politics. An avid sports fan will be bias and believe their team or sports cannot do anything wrong.

*I'm tired of this term "woke" as it is so ill defined and to the extent it has a "meaning" it only refers to American white/Christian cultural conservative grievances. (Not all complaining about "woke" are white & Christian, some are non-Christian whites and others are non-white Christians, but let's face it, the primary nexus of such is with white American Christians.)

When it comes to ideological beliefs word meanings are reconstructed according to the ideology. Words become weapons. This is a result of postmoedernism and poststructuralism where there is no truth in 'words' and everything is up for interpretation. Its become ill defined because that is the very nature of ideologies in postmodern society. By tearing down existing long held meanings and truth as part of reconstructing a new ideology of relativity they have lost all meaning and truth.

The grievances are not really just about Whites or Christians though grievances can be blown out of proportion but about truth and fact. The long held truths and facts that have workeed for a millenia are being lost to radical postmodern politics who want to reconstruct society. The silent majority understand this that the far Left and Right are controlling the narrative.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Yes but much more extreme. But I don't think the Right has the same power it had in years gone by when traditional conservative values ruled policy and society. It seems the Left has had a surge in recent years perhaps partly due to being in a postmodernist society which seems to suit Leftist ideology. Either way far Left or Right they are just as baed as each other in that they impose a restricted view of life on everyone.

I think you're talking about the US, but I'm not sure. (What would Left/Right even mean in contemporary China? That is my clue as to your reference point.) Since I'm not interested in how you think "the left" and "postmodernism" interact (in no small part because it is far from the topic of the thread), I will only reply to this one remaining bit of your post:

But its the governments and companies that are bowing down to China that is the problem as they are compromising the freedoms that the West was built on.

I'm not sure how that is. What is it basically that companies aren't doing? Not issuing press releases condemning human rights abuses in China? Stop employees from doing the same in ways that reflect on the company? Companies do this all the time with employee comment on their products, suppliers, and customers. Would I prefer employees (and players) of the NBA or Disney feel freer to criticize China? Of course, but this is not really anything new to corporate limitations on employee expression that reflects on the company.

Do media companies like Disney remove from availability in countries like China content that those countries object to. Yes, of course. This has always been the case with international media properties.* Are any of our freedoms harmed by Disney removing some content from their offerings to customers in China? No.


*My favorite weird example is a (3rd season, I think) episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation in which a character tried to answer another character's question about why people resort to terrorism. The answer: it sometimes works. Then was a list of successes, which included "Reunification of Ireland in 2024" (still waiting to see if it happens). This was before the Good Friday agreement, so it was still an active conflict and the BBC did not show that episode for a very long time.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Worse than that they use values to smuggle in ideas and beliefs that can harm. All ideologies have an underpinning noble cause. But the noble cause is used as a trojan horse to push a certain truth they believe in about how the world is and should be. Its a powerful tactic as its hard to argue against noble causes. But like the video shows the trickery and double standards can be exposed.

But sometimes thats hard because another tactic used by ideologues is to just cancel opposing views altogether and never by put in a situation where you can be exposed. In this way only one narrative is heard as the truth is cancelled.

@stevevw I could have sworn we used to be on opposite sides of the issue. Am I mistaking you for another poster?

 

[stevevw]

@stevevw I could have sworn we used to be on opposite sides of the issue. Am I mistaking you for another poster?

Not sure what you mean by on the opposite side of the issue. I have always opposed postmodern Woke, PC and cancel culture.

 

[stevevw]

I think you're talking about the US, but I'm not sure. (What would Left/Right even mean in contemporary China? That is my clue as to your reference point.) Since I'm not interested in how you think "the left" and "postmodernism" interact (in no small part because it is far from the topic of the thread), I will only reply to this one remaining bit of your post:

Sorry I meant to say that China occupies the far Left rather than Right on the political spectrum. "What would Left/Right even mean in contemporary China?" Well far Left politics on the political spectrum is communism and totalitarianism. Not sure China has much of a Right side of political politics as that is what Communism does it denies opposing views.

So the radical Left politics of Western nations is on the way to a form of totalitarianism as it dictates how things should be by controlling societies freedom of speech and liberty to hold opposing views. Postmodernism is relevant to the thread and to Woke ideology because if you want to understand how the idea of 'Woke' has changed then I think you need to understand postmodernism and also Marxism I think in its modern version.

I'm not sure how that is. What is it basically that companies aren't doing? Not issuing press releases condemning human rights abuses in China? Stop employees from doing the same in ways that reflect on the company? Companies do this all the time with employee comment on their products, suppliers, and customers. Would I prefer employees (and players) of the NBA or Disney feel freer to criticize China? Of course, but this is not really anything new to corporate limitations on employee expression that reflects on the company.

But the climate has changed. Now social responsibility has become an important part of PR and making profits. Ironically its an offshoot of media *(social media) whicxh has contributed to the change. Now the average Joe and groups can win o5r lose elections and bring down individuals and companies through the power of social media. How many executives have been destroyed for not being Woke or PC. look at J.K.Rowlings. I am sure she has lost a lot of profits for not being Woke.

Do media companies like Disney remove from availability in countries like China content that those countries object to. Yes, of course. This has always been the case with international media properties.* Are any of our freedoms harmed by Disney removing some content from their offerings to customers in China? No.

*My favorite weird example is a (3rd season, I think) episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation in which a character tried to answer another character's question about why people resort to terrorism. The answer: it sometimes works. Then was a list of successes, which included "Reunification of Ireland in 2024" (still waiting to see if it happens). This was before the Good Friday agreement, so it was still an active conflict and the BBC did not show that episode for a very long time.

Disney is more or less indoctrinating its employees to not offend China not because of some cultural differences but to avoid speaking the truth especially in light of recent events. Thats a form of speech control. Whats different about Disney is that they have been controlling the narrative about Woke ideology and championing Human Rights for minorities in their own country.

So the same company who is Woke about putting content warnings on its classics like Dumbo and Fantasia as being offensive to minorities and their celebrity employees who virtue signal about Human Rights breaches against minorities in their own country are silent when it comes to even worse breaches in China.

The point is its hypocritical now for them to continue criticising locals when they don't do the same in China. It weakens their stand on Humans Right breaches and because they have put themselves in a position as Woke overlords it also hurts their reputation which can impact their profitability. In the last couple of years the public has already turned off Hollywoods hypocritical virtue signalling at its award nights with descreasing audiences. This will only turn off more people.
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But it seems your logic is that because this type of compromise and hypocracy of doing deals with nations that breach Human Rights has been happening for a long time is somehow OK. Its not OK because now as Hollywood has got all political and made themselves the thought police thus putting the attention on themselves to do the right thing. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Disney Self-Censors 'Simpsons' Episode Critical Of Chinese Government

A censorship expert says that the removal of the episode on Disney+ in Hong Kong is likely Disney's way of protecting "the company’s ties, current and future, in mainland China.”

www.cartoonbrew.com

Report: The Walt Disney Company And Marvel Studios To Educate Actors In Order To Placate Communist China

A new report claims that The Walt Disney Company and Marvel Studios will begin educating their actors and executives in order to placate communist China to ensure the release of future films into the country.

boundingintocomics.com

Over the past year or so many western based companies have gone full far-left ideology in their operations. Instead of remaining apolitical they have clearly chosen a side. From their political contributions to public messaging and even core products. That will be all you will notice if you're in Western countries. Warner Bros., Disney and the list goes on. They only cater to one side of the political spectrum and have openly antagonized the other. All for standing on some form of "righteous principal". An example is LGBT rights are human rights. Seems admirable that it is the hill they are willing to die on. With legions of activists backing them up.

Or so it appears on the surface. Come China! One of the largest if not arguably the largest authoritarian entity in the world. They have far worse stances on LGBT, race and freedom in general. And records of oppression they desperately tell the world to ignore at the expense of cutting you off their markets. Now these "staunch uncompromising" woke companies are more than willing - in fact self-initiated - to cater to the needs and feelings of known authoritarians. Aren't what they stand for and promote paramount to human rights? No compromise. Just look at how they act in their own borders. Same applies to their diehard activist backers.

My question is why that morality stops at the doorsteps of communist China? I know they prostrate and make low themselves for other not-so-free nations as well, China is the biggest heel-turn they make in most cases. So China is a stand-in of sorts for the others. If these companies are willing to fight the government of their countries why are they unwilling to do the same on CCP?

Rhetorical I know. RMB RMB RMB RMB.

You answered your own question. America is a free country, people and corporations are allowed to have opinions, ideologies, and weigh in on a variety of things.

China is an authoritarian country, with no such protections. Their ability to express their ideologies is not protected and therefore not voiced. Some of these policies predate these companies relationships, some don’t. Just like I’m sure Disney would love to pull out of Florida right now due to their retaliatory authoritarian actions, but they can’t do so easily. Maybe they’ll divest and divert, but they can’t leave entirely.

 

[FireDragon76]

You answered your own question. America is a free country, people and corporations are allowed to have opinions, ideologies, and weigh in on a variety of things.

China is an authoritarian country, with no such protections. Their ability to express their ideologies is not protected and therefore not voiced. Some of these policies predate these companies relationships, some don’t. Just like I’m sure Disney would love to pull out of Florida right now due to their retaliatory authoritarian actions, but they can’t do so easily. Maybe they’ll divest and divert, but they can’t leave entirely.

Unfortunately, anywhere else Disney would move, would probably be worse. Florida was chosen due to having weather that permitted year-round operations, a young, relatively educated workforce with low crime rates, and a relatively cosmopolitan culture used to dealing with northern transients and tourists (there's a reason the Orlando metro area has hamlets and towns with "winter" in their name, like Winter Park or Winter Haven. In addition, Cypress Springs predates Disney by over half a century or so, in terms of tourist attractions). Anywhere else you'ld move in the South would be worse for the bottom line than Florida, in terms of weather, education, or culture.


DeSantis, however, is really beginning to test the notion of Florida as a place that's easygoing, cosmopolitan and genteel. Fortunately, his politics is mostly pandering to old retirees, who will soon be passing away, and long term the demographics for Florida don't look as good for Republicans. Florida is also no longer an obvious retirement destination: it's no longer cheap to live here, and insurers are pulling out of the state or charging high insurance premiums. So I don't expect massive waves of immigration from other states, like we saw in the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Unfortunately, anywhere else Disney would move, would probably be worse. Florida was chosen due to having weather that permitted year-round operations, a young, relatively educated workforce with low crime rates, and a relatively cosmopolitan culture used to dealing with northern transients and tourists (there's a reason the Orlando metro area has hamlets and towns with "winter" in their name, like Winter Park or Winter Haven. In addition, Cypress Springs predates Disney by over half a century or so, in terms of tourist attractions). Anywhere else you'ld move in the South would be worse for the bottom line than Florida, in terms of weather, education, or culture.


DeSantis, however, is really beginning to test the notion of Florida as a place that's easygoing, cosmopolitan and genteel. Fortunately, his politics is mostly pandering to old retirees, who will soon be passing away, and long term the demographics for Florida don't look as good for Republicans. Florida is also no longer an obvious retirement destination: it's no longer cheap to live here, and insurers are pulling out of the state or charging high insurance premiums. So I don't expect massive waves of immigration from other states, like we saw in the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's.

I agree. It’s not feasible to pack up WDW, though I suspect projects there will slow while projects at DL will increase. I know I have no intention to return to FL until things change.