Why are we afraid to be bold?

[Floatingaxe]

God is hardly convicting anyone here...it's people convicting people. Some people believe they have a Holy Book to back them up...whether that is true or not remains to be seen.

The Holy Spirit is in the truth that is spoken from the Word of God. It is powerful truth that convicts people of sin. The written word of God is the source of all the truth we speak here.

Conviction is happening all over the place here, but we have a problem with hardened hearts. This is not like out on the street where randomly we may encounter open hearts to God. Closed hearts love to come here and broadcast their sin. We know what we are dealing with.

 

[Ohioprof]

The Holy Spirit is in the truth that is spoken from the Word of God. It is powerful truth that convicts people of sin. The written word of God is the source of all the truth we speak here.

Conviction is happening all over the place here, but we have a problem with hardened hearts. This is not like out on the street where randomly we may encounter open hearts to God. Closed hearts love to come here and broadcast their sin. We know what we are dealing with.

The people you seem to be referring to as having "hardened hearts" are really people with thinking minds. We just think differently from you.

 

[Chaplain David]

The people you seem to be referring to as having "hardened hearts" are really people with thinking minds. We just think differently from you.

Does this different thinking arise from Unitarian Theology?

 

[kiwimac]

I don't think so. I think it more comes from completely dis-similar ways of looking at the universe.

 

[Chaplain David]

I don't think so. I think it more comes from completely dis-similar ways of looking at the universe.

Yes we do all have different ways of looking at the Universe but Unitarian Churches are a real departure from mainstream Christianity and explain why some homosexuals find them so attractive.

If you look at some of the basic Unitarian beliefs that are not all inclusive and do not apply to all Unitarians because of their different takes on Unitarianism you have things like:

Believing that there is truth in the Bible but not believing the Bible is all true.

Believing that Jesus is the son of God but not that he is both God and man.

Belief in one God but not the Holy Trinity.

No belief in Hell.

Some unitarian churches are pro abortion.

These things among other beliefs explain a lot about why some homosexuals find them attractive - lack of condemnation, can cherry pick scripture, even make it up as you go along, no judgement, no hell, God is pretty much whoever you want Him to be, not who Scripture says he is.

 

[catlover]

Yes we do all have different ways of looking at the Universe but Unitarian Churches are a real departure from mainstream Christianity and explain why some homosexuals find them so attractive.

If you look at some of the basic Unitarian beliefs that are not all inclusive and do not apply to all Unitarians because of their different takes on Unitarianism you have things like:

Believing that there is truth in the Bible but not believing the Bible is all true.

Believing that Jesus is the son of God but not that he is both God and man.

Belief in one God but not the Holy Trinity.

No belief in Hell.

Some unitarian churches are pro abortion.

These things among other beliefs explain a lot about why some homosexuals find them attractive - lack of condemnation, can cherry pick scripture, even make it up as you go along, no judgement, no hell, God is pretty much whoever you want Him to be, not who Scripture says he is.

According to those in The Apostolic Churches Born Again theology is a result "cherry picking" Christian beliefs.

The Unitarian Church obviously is doing something correct, there is refuge for people who are discriminated against by Christians and they endorse women's access to reproductive health.

 

[Chaplain David]

According to those in The Apostolic Churches Born Again theology is a result "cherry picking" Christian beliefs.

The Unitarian Church obviously is doing something correct, there is refuge for people who are discriminated against by Christians and they endorse women's access to reproductive health.

I would amend your statements by saying that born again theology is a result of taking and implementing in one's life the new covenant of the Holy Bible as literally as possible. But really, if one wants to be Christian, according to Jesus Christ our Lord, one has to be born again.

In John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again , he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The second part where you state that Unitarians endorse women's access to reproductive health I don't understand. Are you agreeing with me that in general, Unitarian philosophy is pro-abortion or are you saying that while pregnant, Unitarian philosophy is to help take care of the health of the mother and baby growing in her womb or are you saying both?

 

[Ohioprof]

Does this different thinking arise from Unitarian Theology?

I am not allowed to advocate any non-Nicene theology since the creation of the new forum rule, and I want to point out at the outset that I am advocating no theology at all. I am simply explaining a bit about Unitarian Universalism in answer to your question.

There is no Unitarian Universalist theology. We are a non-creedal faith. There used to be a Unitarian theology and a Universalist theology, but these no longer exist in our religious association, except within the thinking of individuals. In our church association, each member or friend is free to develop his or her own theology, to find his or her own path to God or to truth or to greater knowledge. Each individual grows spiritually as an individual, within a community of fellow seekers. We hold no theological doctrine in common. Some Unitarian Universalists are Christians, like me. Some are Buddhists. Some are pagans. Some are Jews. Some are atheists or agnostics. UUs can hold any creed or no creed and still be part of our religious association.

Unitarian Universalists share a common belief in 7 principles, but these are not theological principles. They are rather a covenant for how we will live and worship together.

Unitarian Universalists welcome people from all different faiths, including Christians who believe in the Nicene Creed and who believe the Bible is the word of God.

When I referred in my previous post to people with thinking minds, I was not referring to Unitarian Universalists. I was referring to all the posters in these threads who were denounced by Floatingaxe for allegedly having "hardened hearts." I was responding to her characterization of people who disagree with her.

 

[Ohioprof]

I would amend your statements by saying that born again theology is a result of taking and implementing in one's life the new covenant of the Holy Bible as literally as possible. But really, if one wants to be Christian, according to Jesus Christ our Lord, one has to be born again.

In John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again , he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The second part where you state that Unitarians endorse women's access to reproductive health I don't understand. Are you agreeing with me that in general, Unitarian philosophy is pro-abortion or are you saying that while pregnant, Unitarian philosophy is to help take care of the health of the mother and baby growing in her womb or are you saying both?

Unitarian Universalists do not take any common position on abortion or on women's reproductive health. There are pro-life UUs and pro-choice UUs.

The Unitarian Universalist Association General Assembly does take positions on various social issues, but no individual and no congregation is expected to endorse them or to abide by these positions unless they want to. I do not think the UUA has taken any position on abortion. Individual congregations can also choose to take positions on issues, but no individual member is expected to adhere to these positions or to endorse them. My congregation has taken no position on abortion. We have taken a position in support of equality for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people (by unanimous vote), and we have taken a position against the death penalty and a position against torture. We may vote in May to take a position in favor of universal health care.

I will say that the Unitarian Universalist Association has been bold when it comes to supporting equality for lgbt people and welcoming lgbt people into our churches. My own congregation has been similarly bold.

I think many gay people join UU churches because we are welcome there, as we are not in many other churches.

 

[Brieuse]

According to those in The Apostolic Churches Born Again theology is a result "cherry picking" Christian beliefs.

The Unitarian Church obviously is doing something correct, there is refuge for people who are discriminated against by Christians and they endorse women's access to reproductive health.

I'm not sure about their doctrines, I'm from a mainstream Presbyterian Church, orginally, then moved off to an independent Charismatic Church of Baptist origins. We've been taught that not everybody has necessarily the same doctrinal beliefs, and it is the acceptance of Jesus as saviour that is important.

 

[Floatingaxe]

People join UU churches to fill a social need, and not a spiritual one. They are still starving spiritually, for they do not meet God there--only other God-seekers who are not being presented the truth in Christ Jesus. That isn't a church at all.

Matthew 5:14
so ignore them. They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch.

 

[Ohioprof]

Yes we do all have different ways of looking at the Universe but Unitarian Churches are a real departure from mainstream Christianity and explain why some homosexuals find them so attractive.

If you look at some of the basic Unitarian beliefs that are not all inclusive and do not apply to all Unitarians because of their different takes on Unitarianism you have things like:

Believing that there is truth in the Bible but not believing the Bible is all true.

Believing that Jesus is the son of God but not that he is both God and man.

Belief in one God but not the Holy Trinity.

No belief in Hell.

Some unitarian churches are pro abortion.

These things among other beliefs explain a lot about why some homosexuals find them attractive - lack of condemnation, can cherry pick scripture, even make it up as you go along, no judgement, no hell, God is pretty much whoever you want Him to be, not who Scripture says he is.

I would like to add to what you have written here so that people are not confused about Unitarian Universalism and what UUs believe. The Unitarian Universalist Association takes no position on the nature of God, on the trinity, on hell, on the nature of Jesus. As I said in a previous post, we are a non-creedal faith, and we have no common theology. You are, by mentioning some common UU beliefs, writing about some of the beliefs that characterized historic Unitarianism in its past differences from trinitarian Christianity. You also mention a belief in universal salvation, which characterized historic Universalism. Universalism is as much part of our UU heritage as Unitarianism is. My own congregation started 140 years ago as a Universalist congregation.

Folks should be aware, however, that these are not today principles endorsed by the Unitarian Universalist Association or by specific congregations, as we are today a non-creedal faith. These are the beliefs that characterized our ancestors, but not the UU church body today. Some individual UUs do hold some or all of these beliefs, of course, but they hold them as individuals. The church body espouses no theological doctrine.

 

[Ohioprof]

People join UU churches to fill a social need, and not a spiritual one. They are still starving spiritually, for they do not meet God there--only other God-seekers who are not being presented the truth in Christ Jesus. That isn't a church at all.

Matthew 5:14
so ignore them. They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch.

This is not true. People join UU churches for a variety of reasons. Many, including me, joined our congregation to have a community in which to worship and to grow closer to God.

Our congregation has been bold in welcoming gay people and bisexual and transgender people also. That's the topic of this thread: being bold.

 

[Ohioprof]

I'm not sure about their doctrines, I'm from a mainstream Presbyterian Church, orginally, then moved off to an independent Charismatic Church of Baptist origins. We've been taught that not everybody has necessarily the same doctrinal beliefs, and it is the acceptance of Jesus as saviour that is important.

I can tell you about Unitarian Universalism, as that is my faith. As a church body, we hold to no theological doctrines. We are non-creedal. Individuals are encouraged to develop their own spiritual path, and to embrace doctrines or not individually, as they choose.

Our church association has long supported equality for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people. That's not a theological position; it's a position on a social issue. I think we have been bold in our support for equality for people of all sexual orientations and gender identities.

 

[kiwimac]

Sacerdote you wrote (heh, rhymes!)

If you look at some of the basic Unitarian beliefs that are not all inclusive and do not apply to all Unitarians because of their different takes on Unitarianism you have things like:

Believing that there is truth in the Bible but not believing the Bible is all true.

Believing that Jesus is the son of God but not that he is both God and man.

Belief in one God but not the Holy Trinity.

No belief in Hell.

Some unitarian churches are pro abortion.

Coming as I do from a Quakerly background I can understand these positions.

Moreover I argue that the Bible contains spiritual truth not scientific (for example) truth, I also consider
that the truth in the Bible is mediated through the cultural understandings of those folk moved to write. That is it contains, along with God's words, the religious beliefs and expectations of various folk at various times.

The belief that Jesus is both God and Man is a comparatively late one, you'll find no trace of it at all in Paul's writings who considers that God (the father) raised Christ from the dead (rather than Jesus as God raising himself) and that because of his willingness to die, God raised him above all others.

which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 and he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the church, Eph 1:20-22 (ASV)

As for the trinity that belief is later still, certainly the early Apostles were not trinitarians. Moreover I would argue that the doctrine of the trinity is, at it's best, an attempt by the fallible to understand the infallible and and just as likely to be wrong as the corresponding unitarian POV. God is far above all human beliefs about Godself.

Not all Christians accept the doctrine of eternal punishment. In point of fact the ONLY requirement to be a Christian is faith in Jesus Christ and an awareness that in Christ, God threw away the rules and did for us what we could not do for ourselves.

 

[Chaplain David]

Sacerdote you wrote (heh, rhymes!)



Coming as I do from a Quakerly background I can understand these positions.

Moreover I argue that the Bible contains spiritual truth not scientific (for example) truth, I also consider
that the truth in the Bible is mediated through the cultural understandings of those folk moved to write. That is it contains, along with God's words, the religious beliefs and expectations of various folk at various times.

The belief that Jesus is both God and Man is a comparatively late one, you'll find no trace of it at all in Paul's writings who considers that God (the father) raised Christ from the dead (rather than Jesus as God raising himself) and that because of his willingness to die, God raised him above all others.



As for the trinity that belief is later still, certainly the early Apostles were not trinitarians. Moreover I would argue that the doctrine of the trinity is, at it's best, an attempt by the fallible to understand the infallible and and just as likely to be wrong as the corresponding unitarian POV. God is far above all human beliefs about Godself.

Not all Christians accept the doctrine of eternal punishment. In point of fact the ONLY requirement to be a Christian is faith in Jesus Christ and an awareness that in Christ, God threw away the rules and did for us what we could not do for ourselves.

Kiwi, you bring up some good points, many of which are hotly debated today. But I am having some painful carpal tunnel in my right hand and cannot write much for a while. God bless you.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Yes we do all have different ways of looking at the Universe but Unitarian Churches are a real departure from mainstream Christianity and explain why some homosexuals find them so attractive.

If you look at some of the basic Unitarian beliefs that are not all inclusive and do not apply to all Unitarians because of their different takes on Unitarianism you have things like:

Believing that there is truth in the Bible but not believing the Bible is all true.

Believing that Jesus is the son of God but not that he is both God and man.

Belief in one God but not the Holy Trinity.

No belief in Hell.

Some unitarian churches are pro abortion.

These things among other beliefs explain a lot about why some homosexuals find them attractive - lack of condemnation, can cherry pick scripture, even make it up as you go along, no judgement, no hell, God is pretty much whoever you want Him to be, not who Scripture says he is.

Perhaps the main reason many gay people like Unitarian churches is because they receive a genuine welcome without judgment.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

People join UU churches to fill a social need, and not a spiritual one. They are still starving spiritually, for they do not meet God there--only other God-seekers who are not being presented the truth in Christ Jesus. That isn't a church at all.

Matthew 5:14
so ignore them. They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch.

God reveals himself where he will.

Floating Axe has no say in the matter of when and where people will encounter God...let alone making the absurd determination that they are not spiritual and not a church.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Kiwi, you bring up some good points, many of which are hotly debated today. But I am having some painful carpal tunnel in my right hand and cannot write much for a while. God bless you.

Prayers for you, brother sacerdote.

May God's healing power bring you strength and wholeness!

 

[catlover]

God reveals himself where he will.

Floating Axe has no say in the matter of when and where people will encounter God...let alone making the absurd determination that they are not spiritual and not a church.

Exactly Chalice Thunder...God is not confined to a Holy Book or building.