Why are we afraid to be bold?

[FaithLikeARock]

I recently read an article in the Sacramento News & Review (SN&R). It had a column dedicated to Reverends talking about the affects of orientation. I knew that it wouldn't be something against but for so I was intrigued - pastors who are openly apathetic to homosexuality are rare (no one is PRO-GAY because that asserts difference, no less insulting than asserting yourself pro-Deaf. Neither are appropriate because it categorizes the behavior as something that can be decided. It's always Pro-Gay Rights and Pro-Deaf Rights. Pro-Gay Rights people don't care about homosexuality as an orientation, it doesn't bother them or appear obvious in a crowd).

Reverend Dr. David Thompson, quotes himself as actually saying, straight out, with no sugar coatings, that St. Paul is wrong in Romans. Wow. Drop the jaw. It's not that I disagree with the Reverend, I'm skeptical about Paul's letters just as much as he is, but I never outright say it. I just say "Well it could be..." and make it as pretty and "non-offensive" as possible (Christian political correctness you might say). He says that because homosexuality is so deeply biologically and psychologically rooted, the idea that God would make something unpreventable wrong is preposterous.

So, those who believe homosexuals aren't sinning, why are we this bold? I don't mean blabbing on and on about how the other side is wrong. That's not being bold that's actually being rather dumb. But our voice is very quiet outside of this forum. I realize the voice of the opposing side is loud and it kind of leaves a ringing sound in my ear but that's the problem. I'm discouraged, because the minute you speak out you get called a heretic and basically shouted at with put-downs and questions about your faith until your shrink into obscurity, which, in my opinion, isn't right. We should be like martyrs, stronger than knives in the form of sharp objects or words, and be making a bigger impact in the real world and speaking as clearly as possible.

The reason the opposing side has no trouble is because it's easy for them. Quote a Bible verse, then shout "Amen!" and any Christian will stop and agree. They haven't been taught how not to because the same people doing this are the ones that taught them how to shut off their brain and work on auto pilot for the rest of their life. We have to try to turn it back on and then persuade them to use it, which is so much harder than turning it off (making people think really is more difficult that it needs to be).

So what will you do to start the flow of thinking and be a voice for Christianity and homosexuality? That's like standing in the middle of a bloody war practically, because you're mocked for being Christian and for being homosexual or fighting for homosexuals, and you're mocked for being both. The Lord knows I wanted to quit, especially after seeing how ignorant people on both sides can be, but someone always impresses me and I have to try again. We're fighting in the middle so we have to be twice as loud - and when you're cast with a burden like THAT and you STILL continue to fight for both, you KNOW you must have some faith. And that's all the proof I need. God wouldn't life the burden, I wouldn't be so relaxed, if I weren't fighting for what's right. I would feel guilty for arguing with my brothers and sisters, not betrayed. For all those here fighting in the middle we have a burden yet we press on BECAUSE we know we have God. We don't need cheat sheets or brainwashing or easy pickings because we know God will help us through it.

Now for the question. If you're stuck in the middle, fighting for both homosexual rights and for Christ, has your burden been lifted? I want to hear your testimony, about what convinced you that something wasn't right about what they taught you in Sunday School.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I'm not afraid to be bold for Jesus and for His righteousness!! Fornication is fornication. There's no getting around it. Live a life of unrepentant sin and you die spiritually. Finis.

 

[Ohioprof]

I'm not afraid to be bold for Jesus and for His righteousness!! Fornication is fornication. There's no getting around it. Live a life of unrepentant sin and you die spiritually. Finis.

And loving one's spouse in a marriage, whether it is an opposite-sex marriage or a same-sex marriage, is not fornication.

 

[Ohioprof]

I recently read an article in the Sacramento News & Review (SN&R). It had a column dedicated to Reverends talking about the affects of orientation. I knew that it wouldn't be something against but for so I was intrigued - pastors who are openly apathetic to homosexuality are rare (no one is PRO-GAY because that asserts difference, no less insulting than asserting yourself pro-Deaf. Neither are appropriate because it categorizes the behavior as something that can be decided. It's always Pro-Gay Rights and Pro-Deaf Rights. Pro-Gay Rights people don't care about homosexuality as an orientation, it doesn't bother them or appear obvious in a crowd).

Reverend Dr. David Thompson, quotes himself as actually saying, straight out, with no sugar coatings, that St. Paul is wrong in Romans. Wow. Drop the jaw. It's not that I disagree with the Reverend, I'm skeptical about Paul's letters just as much as he is, but I never outright say it. I just say "Well it could be..." and make it as pretty and "non-offensive" as possible (Christian political correctness you might say). He says that because homosexuality is so deeply biologically and psychologically rooted, the idea that God would make something unpreventable wrong is preposterous.

So, those who believe homosexuals aren't sinning, why are we this bold? I don't mean blabbing on and on about how the other side is wrong. That's not being bold that's actually being rather dumb. But our voice is very quiet outside of this forum. I realize the voice of the opposing side is loud and it kind of leaves a ringing sound in my ear but that's the problem. I'm discouraged, because the minute you speak out you get called a heretic and basically shouted at with put-downs and questions about your faith until your shrink into obscurity, which, in my opinion, isn't right. We should be like martyrs, stronger than knives in the form of sharp objects or words, and be making a bigger impact in the real world and speaking as clearly as possible.

The reason the opposing side has no trouble is because it's easy for them. Quote a Bible verse, then shout "Amen!" and any Christian will stop and agree. They haven't been taught how not to because the same people doing this are the ones that taught them how to shut off their brain and work on auto pilot for the rest of their life. We have to try to turn it back on and then persuade them to use it, which is so much harder than turning it off (making people think really is more difficult that it needs to be).

So what will you do to start the flow of thinking and be a voice for Christianity and homosexuality? That's like standing in the middle of a bloody war practically, because you're mocked for being Christian and for being homosexual or fighting for homosexuals, and you're mocked for being both. The Lord knows I wanted to quit, especially after seeing how ignorant people on both sides can be, but someone always impresses me and I have to try again. We're fighting in the middle so we have to be twice as loud - and when you're cast with a burden like THAT and you STILL continue to fight for both, you KNOW you must have some faith. And that's all the proof I need. God wouldn't life the burden, I wouldn't be so relaxed, if I weren't fighting for what's right. I would feel guilty for arguing with my brothers and sisters, not betrayed. For all those here fighting in the middle we have a burden yet we press on BECAUSE we know we have God. We don't need cheat sheets or brainwashing or easy pickings because we know God will help us through it.

Now for the question. If you're stuck in the middle, fighting for both homosexual rights and for Christ, has your burden been lifted? I want to hear your testimony, about what convinced you that something wasn't right about what they taught you in Sunday School.

There are bold people who do stand up for the teachings of Jesus and for gay people. Check out the work of Soulforce: http://www.soulforce.org

Soulforce has also sponsored Equality Rides the past two springs. Buses of young people, Christians mostly, ride around the country to conservative Christian colleges and universities to dialogue about "homosexuality." At some colleges they have been greeted warmly, and good dialogue has taken place. At most of the colleges, however, the Equality Riders have been barred from the campuses and have been arrested for walking on campus to speak with students.

The Equality Riders are bold people, speaking out on behalf of the teachings of Jesus. And the students at the conservative Christian colleges they visit have mostly been eager to talk with them. Here is a link to more information: http://www.soulforce.org/article/1100

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Faith, darlin'

What a great topic, and thank you for presenting it so well!

Sometimes we are called to be bold - but then other times we are called to occupy the place of shame in which others place us.

This is the strongest possible witness to Jesus, who for our sake, stood in the ultimate place of shame - and held it with humility. The "religious" taunted him, brutalized him, convicted him and killed him. But as Christians, we KNOW that death is NOT the last word.

For many of us in the pro gay rights movement, it is difficult to stand in a place of shame, when we've been placed there for so long, and we have worked so hard to move beyond it. But the living witness to a Living God sometimes requires it.

For the sake of Jesus, I will stand in that place when I am called to do so...always remembering that I have been saved, and called out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Thanks be to God that our salvation does not depend on us!

 

[Chaplain David]

I recently read an article in the Sacramento News & Review ...I don't mean blabbing on and on about how the other side is wrong. That's not being bold that's actually being rather dumb....The reason the opposing side has no trouble is because it's easy for them. Quote a Bible verse, then shout "Amen!" and any Christian will stop and agree.... They haven't been taught how not to because the same people doing this are the ones that taught them how to shut off their brain and work on auto pilot for the rest of their life.... We have to try to turn it back on and then persuade them to use it...

Excellent OP because it opens up the entirety of scripture rather than relying on the standard short and terse condemnation of homosexuality one sees a lot here.

I am indeed interested in having homosexuals come to Christ and accepting the Holy Bible as God's written word. Naturally this applies to those who haven't done so already. But any chance of that happening aside from Christ performing a miracle is going to be through the reliance on the saving grace of Jesus Christ and manifesting His love in our posts. We have a large job of setting a good example, a Christian example that is not done when people scream from the rafters, "Fornicators, Fornicators, You're condmemned, ad nauseum."

A.A. has a saying that it is a program of attraction not promotion. I think the same can be applied to Christianity in some cases. People have to see Christianity at work in us by example in word, deed and by our sharing kindly and lovingly about it. Then someone might be attracted.

 

[Zaac]

Now for the question. If you're stuck in the middle, fighting for both homosexual rights and for Christ, has your burden been lifted? I want to hear your testimony, about what convinced you that something wasn't right about what they taught you in Sunday School.

So exactly what homosexual rights are you fighting for while also fighting for Christ?

What did they teach you in Sunday School about it?

 

[Zaac]

Excellent OP because it opens up the entirety of scripture rather than relying on the standard short and terse condemnation of homosexuality one sees a lot here.

I am indeed interested in having homosexuals come to Christ and accepting the Holy Bible as God's written word. Naturally this applies to those who haven't done so already. But any chance of that happening aside from Christ performing a miracle is going to be through the reliance on the saving grace of Jesus Christ and manifesting His love in our posts. We have a large job of setting a good example, a Christian example that is not done when people scream from the rafters, "Fornicators, Fornicators, You're condmemned, ad nauseum."

So what is two homosexuals having sex together called if not fornication?

A.A. has a saying that it is a program of attraction not promotion. I think the same can be applied to Christianity in some cases. People have to see Christianity at work in us by example in word, deed and by our sharing kindly and lovingly about it. Then someone might be attracted.

Very true. And many do that by lovingly telling what God's Word says. Of course, there is a strong contingent here who feel that telling the homosexual that his fornication is wrong is hate speech.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

So exactly what homosexual rights are you fighting for while also fighting for Christ?

What did they teach you in Sunday School about it?

Me, the same thing everyone else is taught. That it's wrong. It wasn't quite until 7th grade since sex education in general isn't "appropriate" to talk about with 6th graders (which is exactly why teen pregnancy rates are so high). Unfortunately for them, I, being such a rare case in the world, was probably born to be open minded. It helps when you've been raised around mentally and physically disabled and have to learn to be flexible.

Then after JUST teaching me it's wrong, they went farther and farther until they were teaching me things that contradict factual evidence, which I had to find out on my own.

 

[Zaac]

Me, the same thing everyone else is taught. That it's wrong. It wasn't quite until 7th grade since sex education in general isn't "appropriate" to talk about with 6th graders (which is exactly why teen pregnancy rates are so high). Unfortunately for them, I, being such a rare case in the world, was probably born to be open minded. It helps when you've been raised around mentally and physically disabled and have to learn to be flexible.

So were you taught in Sunday School that homosexuality or homosexual rights or both were wrong?

Then after JUST teaching me it's wrong, they went farther and farther until they were teaching me things that contradict factual evidence, which I had to find out on my own.

Homosexuality, the homosexual sex or what?

What contradicting factial information have you found out about whichever one of the above you may have been referring?

 

[FaithLikeARock]

So were you taught in Sunday School that homosexuality or homosexual rights or both were wrong?



Homosexuality, the homosexual sex or what?

What contradicting factial information have you found out about whichever one of the above you may have been referring?

Like I said, Sunday school don't go into great detail. It was just a 2 second thing. Later I was taught that because homosexuality isn't right, claiming homosexuality should either label you as mentally handicapped or not as competent or whatever. The idea that it should be outlawed just stunned me, not because I had formed an opinion, but just because of the whole "why? what would it change?" factor.

My church (most churches) believe homosexuality in general, meaning any attraction to the same sex, is an inappropriate fantasy (because of course, fantasizing about the opposite sex is a-okay). Contradicting factual evidence: most actual homosexuals should biological/psychological evidence for their orientation. It isn't just a "I woke up and decided I'm gay" thing. That's proven in modern psychology - don't give me some bogus, bias study done by some Christian "psychologist" with his license revoked and don't tell me how many people an ex-gay clinic has converted, I don't care. Because a psychologist that's been expelled from the APA holds no water with me, and mental behaviors can be repressed (at the cost of the one who exhibits them) so ex-gay clinics don't either.

 

[Zaac]

Like I said, Sunday school don't go into great detail. It was just a 2 second thing. Later I was taught that because homosexuality isn't right, claiming homosexuality should either label you as mentally handicapped or not as competent or whatever. The idea that it should be outlawed just stunned me, not because I had formed an opinion, but just because of the whole "why? what would it change?" factor.

My church (most churches) believe homosexuality in general, meaning any attraction to the same sex, is an inappropriate fantasy (because of course, fantasizing about the opposite sex is a-okay).

I've never been to a church that has felt that way. We are equal opportunity correctors. No lusting over anyone.

Contradicting factual evidence: most actual homosexuals should biological/psychological evidence for their orientation. It isn't just a "I woke up and decided I'm gay" thing. That's proven in modern psychology - don't give me some bogus, bias study done by some Christian "psychologist" with his license revoked and don't tell me how many people an ex-gay clinic has converted, I don't care. Because a psychologist that's been expelled from the APA holds no water with me, and mental behaviors can be repressed (at the cost of the one who exhibits them) so ex-gay clinics don't either.

How people are born really isn't the issue in evangelical churches that I know of. Obedience is. Are homosexuals committing acts that God says to not commit? It's the same thing with heterosexuals.

 

[Chaplain David]

So were you taught in Sunday School that homosexuality or homosexual rights or both were wrong?



Homosexuality, the homosexual sex or what?

What contradicting factial information have you found out about whichever one of the above you may have been referring?

The same old thing, over and over

 

[Floatingaxe]

And loving one's spouse in a marriage, whether it is an opposite-sex marriage or a same-sex marriage, is not fornication.

Yes it is. God doesn't recognize perverse relationships. He only ordains marriages between men and women...and those whom He knows.

Homosexuals are outside of God's will and what they do is called fornication.

 

[Floatingaxe]

So exactly what homosexual rights are you fighting for while also fighting for Christ?

What did they teach you in Sunday School about it?

Actually, they are fighting WITH Christ. No one is going to learn anything from them.

 

[Zaac]

The same old thing, over and over

If you're bored, keep on moving.

 

[Zaac]

Yes it is. God doesn't recognize perverse relationships. He only ordains marriages between men and women...and those whom He knows.

Homosexuals are outside of God's will and what they do is called fornication.

Plain and simple.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I don't care.

That says it in a nutshell. Have you ever bothered to find out for yourself about what God says? Or have you relied on what people tell you?

 

[Zaac]

Actually, they are fighting WITH Christ. No one is going to learn anything from them but how to be a hypocrite.

That's my take on this too. I understand saved's angst, but I'm under the impression that she doesn't believe what God's Word says about homosexual fornication.

 

[Floatingaxe]

The same old thing, over and over

Get used to it. We stand for God's word. We represent Christ and His call to holiness in this issue. You can't cut Jesus out of this part of CF.