Why are today’s churches so different than the NT churches?

[extraordinary]

What did Jesus command His original disciples to do?
• Matt 10:1-8 “… He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to
heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease … These twelve Jesus sent out and
commanded them, saying … ‘Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons.’ ”
In the early days, Jesus gave His disciples (who had very little understanding) some kind
of “special” power … or … the Holy Spirit just did what they were demanding.

Later, we see the disciples being born-again:
• John 20:21-22 “Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.’
And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.’ ”

Then a few weeks later, Jesus gave them The Great Commission:
• Matt 28:18-20 “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
Note: all new disciples were to be taught to do the same things that Jesus had taught His disciples!

His next instruction to them was:
• Luke 24:49 “Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you;
but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”
Luke expands on the above as to what Jesus instructed them:
• Acts 1:4-8 “And being assembled together with them, He commanded them
not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father …
‘… you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
… But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you;
and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem … and to the end of the earth.’ ”
So, 120 of His followers waited in the upper room to see what would happen!
Then on the Day of Pentecost, 109 were born-again and all 120 were Spirit-baptized.
Now they were all “good to go” for evangelizing the world.

As Paul said later, evangelizing the gospel needs to be done with signs and wonders:
• Rom 15:19 “… in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of
the Spirit of God … I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.”
• 1 Cor 2:4-5 “… my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive
words of human wisdom,but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.”

This was how New Testament church operated, both inside and outside of their services.
Every man in the 5-fold ministry (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher) had the
baptism with the Holy Spirit, and each hadat least 1 of the 9 spiritual power gifts of 1 Cor 12.
And the church was multiplied tremendously!

What happened to the church? … What caused it to change so dramatically?

First, Satan did not want the churches to continue to have the spiritual power
they enjoyed during NT times … because the signs and wonders were a
powerful confirmation of the truth of the gospel, not to mention the fact
that they produced miraculous healings of all kinds “in the name of Jesus”.
Satan is many things, but for our purposes let us just focus on 2 items:
“the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9)
“there is no truth in him ... he is a liar and the father of it” (John 8:44)

Secondly, some 1800 years ago, Satan successfully deceived those in charge
of the big churches to want to be in control instead of God being in control.
These men also did not want …
-- God’s anointed apostles and prophets (who had run the NT churches)
-- anyone in the church with more spiritual gifts than they had
-- to look spiritually inferior to anyone
-- to risk losing their power, authority, prestige, jobs, etc.

This is why men in control of the large post-apostolic churches increasingly chose
to reject anointed believers who had some of the 9 spiritual power gifts (1 Cor 12).
So, they came up with the excuse that God’s signs, wonders, and miracles ceased with
the passing of the apostles … and for centuries they used 1 Cor 13:10 as their excuse.
Cessationism began here.

In post #2 …
Read what a very highly-regarded researcher discovered about post-apostolic church history.
.

 

[extraordinary]

Following are the findings of John W. Kennedy, who researched the history of the
church and presented his findings in his 1965 book, The Torch of the Testimony
(SeedSowers Pub.). Kennedy was a British missionary who lived in India from
1952 until his death, ministering to indigenous people groups.
Read about this very highly-praised Christian and his book here:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Torch-Testimony-John-Kennedy/product-reviews/094023212X/ref=dpx_acr_txt?showViewpoints=1

Please excuse the quite haphazard arrangement of quotes from the book!

• Between the end of the early history recounted by Luke in Acts, towards the
end of the second century, lies a period of which not much historical information
is available concerning the growth and development of the church.
When we emerge from this period of uncertainty (toward 200 a.d.)
we find a church in many respects quite different from the churches of the NT.
We find that wide and far-reaching changes have taken place, and there is
an unmistakable move in the direction of the institutionalism of later years.
The difficulties with disassociating from the traditions of Jewish ritualism was the
beginning of the rot which was ultimately to corrupt the (spiritual) life of the church.

• In the early years, an attitude of conceit found its place in certain sections of the church.
This opened the way for debilitating changes, which gradually established themselves
in the churches’ order. Clericalism began to take shape in the early churches, and the
special position given to a Christian elite within the local congregation tended to
establish the belief that it was endowed with special powers. This paved the way for
the exaggerated importance given to priests and priestly-administered sacraments.
This, and the establishment of the monarchical Bishop, soon gave rise to the recognition
of two classes of Christians within the church (clergy and laity), and also opened the
way for other evils. And all of this has been perpetuated down through the centuries.
Pride or self-sufficiency is the basic evil which denies God His rightful place.

• The emphasis of the Scripture is that elders are the appointment of the Spirit.
Ministers of Christ were accepted and their authority was recognised because
the mark of the Spirit was upon them. Whatever God establishes, man ultimately
wants to prune and shape to his own liking. The life of the Spirit can never be
confined within the framework of religious tradition. When that which is revealed
by God is crystalized into a tradition, rigidly held and propagated with purely
human energy, it becomes an impenetrable barrier to the truth.
Spiritual life as the basis of the church gave place to mental assent of a creed,
and this was enforced by the ecumenical Church as law.
Spirtual life and character, not sacraments, are the basis of the church.
Scripture warns of the subtleties which will sap the spiritual energies of the
church till it is reduced from the divine to something that is purely human.
The Spirit of God was hindered in His working by humanly-imposed limitations,
and the power of the Holy Spirit had been replaced by certain rites.

• There are three things which have been emphasized as a grave danger to the life
of the church and a curb on the working of the Spirit. We see these three tendencies
again and again assert themselves and the Spirit of God hindered in His working
by humanly imposed limitations. Where the rule of the Spirit is denied,
corruption is the inescapable result.

• More than anyone else, Augustine encouraged the pernicious doctrine of salvation
through the sacraments of an organized earthly church. This brought with it priest-
craft with all the evil and miseries that it has entailed down through the centuries.
The power of the Spirit having gone, these rites took its place.
Baptism came to be understood as a means whereby spiritual generation was
miraculously conferred. This was being taught early in the second century, and a
variation (of possibly slightly later origin) was the baptism of infants, another practice
for which there is no authority in the New Testament. Tertullian (in 197) condemned
this practice along with the practice of baptizing the dead, yet another innovation.
The Lord’s table, with the bread and wine miraculously transformed into the actual
flesh and blood of Christ through the power of the Bishop, became a further means
of the magical impartation of divine grace. All of this was a direct inheritance from
heathenism … the supposedly miraculous associations of these ordinances are
not at all in accordance with Scriptural teaching.

• The grimmer side of fourth century Christianity demonstrates how far organized
Christianity had departed from a spiritual faith with the increasing tendency
towards sacramentalism.
.

 

[OzSpen]

A Google search helped me locate some of this information on other forums. Is that where you obtained some of it?

What's your view on why the churches of today are so different - except perhaps for the house churches in China and other persecuted countries?

 

[extraordinary]

A Google search helped me locate some of this information on other forums.
Is that where you obtained some of it?
What's your view on why the churches of today are so different -
except perhaps for the house churches in China and other persecuted countries?

What's my view on my view?

Hmmmm ... I'll have to ponder over that one for a while.

P.S. what you found is mine (except for the book, of course)

Meanwhile, dost thou have a view on this?
.

 

[rick357]

A Google search helped me locate some of this information on other forums. Is that where you obtained some of it?

What's your view on why the churches of today are so different - except perhaps for the house churches in China and other persecuted countries?

Men

 

[rick357]

A Google search helped me locate some of this information on other forums. Is that where you obtained some of it?

What's your view on why the churches of today are so different - except perhaps for the house churches in China and other persecuted countries?

Men...cain and able still in the same womb

 

[OzSpen]

What's my view on my view?
Hmmmm ... I'll have to ponder over that one for a while.
P.S. what you found is mine (except for the book, of course)
Meanwhile, dost thou have a view on this?
.

I do have a view but it doesn't sit well with the traditional church model.

My view is that the church became hierarchical, building oriented, and moved away from this biblical functioning:

'What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up' (1 Cor 14:26 NIV).
​

Ralph Neighbour's book, Where Do We Go From Here? (1990 Touch Publications) was the greatest eye-opener for me to understand why the church has become Program-Based Design (PBD) and moved away from the organic house/cell church model of functioning.

However, I've visited a local house church near me and, sadly, there was as much hierarchy in that one as in any PBD church to which I have belonged.

I see the cell/house church as the way back to this model if we get back to 1 Cor 14:26 functioning and engage in serious evangelism into our communities.

Ralph Neighbour states: 'When I was thirty-six I was absolutely, completely disgusted with traditional church structures that catered to self-needs and ignored the unchurched.... Why do churches quit growing? Why are half or more of their members inactive? What in the world is wrong?' (Neighbour 1990:78).

There you have a started for my utter frustration with where the contemporary church is going in my country of Australia - but it was no different in the USA and Canada when I lived there for 7 years.

Oz

 

[rick357]

I do have a view but it doesn't sit well with the traditional church model.

My view is that the church became hierarchical, building oriented, and moved away from this biblical functioning:
'What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up' (1 Cor 14:26 NIV).
Ralph Neighbour's book, Where Do We Go From Here? (1990 Touch Publications) was the greatest eye-opener for me to understand why the church has become Program-Based Design (PBD) and moved away from the organic house/cell church model of functioning.

However, I've visited a local house church near me and, sadly, there was as much hierarchy in that one as in any PBD church to which I have belonged.

I see the cell/house church as the way back to this model if we get back to 1 Cor 14:26 functioning and engage in serious evangelism into our communities.

Ralph Neighbour states: 'When I was thirty-six I was absolutely, completely disgusted with traditional church structures that catered to self-needs and ignored the unchurched.... Why do churches quit growing? Why are half or more of their members inactive? What in the world is wrong?' (Neighbour 1990:78).

There you have a started for my utter frustration with where the contemporary church is going in my country of Australia - but it was no different in the USA and Canada when I lived there for 7 years.

Oz

Paul told the church when I am gone wolfs would come in even from amongst their own congregations. Wolves make sheep prey for their own lust shepards watch and.protect the sheep because well they are sheep. Why is easy men are men but God is faithful and despite mens failures you and I have booth come to know him

 

[OzSpen]

Paul told the church when I am gone wolfs would come in even from amongst their own congregations. Wolves make sheep prey for their own lust shepards watch and.protect the sheep because well they are sheep. Why is easy men are men but God is faithful and despite mens failures you and I have booth come to know him

So true!

But for me the issue is: How can we get back to biblical functioning when the church gathers (as in I Cor 14:26) and not have to listen to one man with a prominent gift and the others in the pews are made to look as though they are not gifted by God?

We know this isn't the case, but it sure looks like it when the church gathers. As others put it: It needs a massive paradigm shift to get back to biblical functioning.

Oz

 

[rick357]

So true!

But for me the issue is: How can we get back to biblical functioning when the church gathers (as in I Cor 14:26) and not have to listen to one man with a prominent gift and the others in the pews are made to look as though they are not gifted by God?

We know this isn't the case, but it sure looks like it when the church gathers. As others put it: It needs a massive paradigm shift to get back to biblical functioning.

Oz

How can the church as a.whole get right...persecution. And unless we judge ourselves and fall before The Father it will come. When it does as with Gideons army first the.scared leave then the unaware. When serving God is just what people do the church is full when it cost your life only the pure in heart remain. Not a doomsday type but you asked. But while it is.light work there are a few pastures who are about seeing sheep mature and young shepards learn seek ans you will find knock and.the Lord will form one and breath it to life

 

[extraordinary]

It needs a massive paradigm shift to get back to biblical functioning.

Yes, absolutely!
Why give up after trying just one house-church?

Much better still, if you can find one ... a small and serious and true pentecostal church!

Wherever you go, the pastor/leader must be a true shepherd ...
and not a hireling whose #1 priority is paying off the mortgage
(perhaps 2 mortgages: home and church building).

Now, please sit down before reading this!

I have just discovered from several EOC members ...
the EOC "organization" believes that water baptism saves!
Or, perhaps, to be more fair ...
The EOC believes that salvation occurs @ the time of baptism!

And, they think they are the original NT church, basically unchanged, and blah blah.
Several years ago, I met one monk who spent 8 years in a EOC monastery
before he was finally born-again (and Spirit-filled) while there.
He told me that most of his fellow monks were not even saved.

Some priests, ministers, pastors, etc. went to seminary, etc.
and have taken JOBS in the churches ... without even being saved.
.

 

[bling]

It is not just the difference between a house church and meeting house churches. The underground church in China has severe persecution, only the Bible to work with, seceracy that forces each member to work at becoming an evangelist and a doctrine made consitent by what teh Communist pubilize as what cannot be taught (that becomes what they teach).

 

[OzSpen]

extraordinary,

I have not given up after trying one house-church. I have visited a few over the years, but it is very difficult to locate one in my locality as they don't advertise overtly as the govt. does not think highly of house-church meetings in the suburbs. But they would have to be harsh on tupperware parties in houses if they wanted to eliminate house churches.

A couple of days ago I sent an email to Brisbane House Churches. I await a response.

Why don't you try interacting with some of the EOC people on CF and raise these topics in threads with them? Let's not talk about them behind their backs.

Oz

Yes, absolutely!
Why give up after trying just one house-church?

Much better still, if you can find one ... a small and serious and true pentecostal church!

Wherever you go, the pastor/leader must be a true shepherd ...
and not a hireling whose #1 priority is paying off the mortgage
(perhaps 2 mortgages: home and church building).

Now, please sit down before reading this!

I have just discovered from several EOC members ...
the EOC "organization" believes that water baptism saves!
Or, perhaps, to be more fair ...
The EOC believes that salvation occurs @ the time of baptism!

And, they think they are the original NT church, basically unchanged, and blah blah.
Several years ago, I met one monk who spent 8 years in a EOC monastery
before he was finally born-again (and Spirit-filled) while there.
He told me that most of his fellow monks were not even saved.

Some priests, ministers, pastors, etc. went to seminary, etc.
and have taken JOBS in the churches ... without even being saved.
.

 

[OzSpen]

It is not just the difference between a house church and meeting house churches. The underground church in China has severe persecution, only the Bible to work with, seceracy that forces each member to work at becoming an evangelist and a doctrine made consitent by what teh Communist pubilize as what cannot be taught (that becomes what they teach).

From where did you get this kind of information? Please provide us with a link to reliable sources.

 

[Ignatius21]

Following are the findings of John W. Kennedy, who researched the history of the
church and presented his findings in his 1965 book, The Torch of the Testimony
(SeedSowers Pub.). Kennedy was a British missionary who lived in India from
1952 until his death, ministering to indigenous people groups.
Read about this very highly-praised Christian and his book here:

So...highly praised by Internet reviewers on Amazon?

The information in the bullets is so naively simplistic, and shot through with presuppositions, that I don't know whether anyone could begin untangling the mess.

When people go back searching through history, looking for a smoking gun, they're almost sure to find one. So when someone begins by assuming that the NT church did, in fact, go off the rails everywhere, one will surely find this or that piece of evidence to point to.

Notice that almost every group that agrees the NT church was lost, or derailed, or overcome, or whatever...disagrees over when, where and how.

The reason churches today don't look like the NT churches is that everyone pretty much invents his own church as he goes along, convinced he "has the Spirit" guiding him.

 

[prodromos]

I have just discovered from several EOC members ...
the EOC "organization" believes that water baptism saves!
Or, perhaps, to be more fair ...
The EOC believes that salvation occurs @ the time of baptism!

You say you "just discovered" this from several EOC members? Who are these EOC members you speak of? Was it a discussion on CF?
Salvation begins with baptism, because that is when you are grafted into Christ's body, the Church, through participation in Christ's death and resurrection.

And, they think they are the original NT church, basically unchanged, and blah blah.

Your utter disdain for the Orthodox Church has been noted before. You still haven't shown why any other Church would be a better choice.

Several years ago, I met one monk who spent 8 years in a EOC monastery
before he was finally born-again (and Spirit-filled) while there.
He told me that most of his fellow monks were not even saved.

I've addressed this comment of yours before in this thread which you have not seen fit to respond to.

 

[extraordinary]

You say you "just discovered" this from several EOC members?
Who are these EOC members you speak of? Was it a discussion on CF?

Your utter disdain for the Orthodox Church has been noted before.
You still haven't shown why any other Church would be a better choice.

News Flash ... Spiritual information may be obtained in places other than CF.com!

News Flash ... Spiritual Truth is not shown ... it is revealed by the Holy Spirit.
I cannot "show" you anything spiritually ... I just ain't up to the task, my boy!
.

 

[nobdysfool]

News Flash ... Spiritual information may be obtained in places other than CF.com!

News Flash ... Spiritual Truth is not shown ... it is revealed by the Holy Spirit.
I cannot "show" you anything spiritually ... I just ain't up to the task, my boy!
.

Well, you've certainly demonstrated that last bit...

 

[prodromos]

News Flash ... Spiritual information may be obtained in places other than CF.com!

Well DOH! that was why I asked if it was a thread on CF, to which you could answer "yes" or "no" plus whatever other details you thought helpful. I simply want to confirm the context of your claims regarding what you say you've been told by some of my fellow Orthodox. Is that too much to ask?

 

[bling]

From where did you get this kind of information? Please provide us with a link to reliable sources.

You can certainly Google it if you want to know what others have written.

I have Chinese relatives living in China, my son has been in China, I have missionary friends that have been there and some are still there (they are working, teaching or going to school and cannot say they are missionaries), I correspond with Chinese there, through others (cannot even email directly). One of my good friends is actually working with the Chinese Minister of Religion in China (a communist) to change the curriculum in the government approved Churches to allow a nondenominational doctrine to be taught (the communist do not want the Government approved Christian Churches in China to be tied to any one denomination). They have provided money to have this written.
Personally I do not trust the Communist, but this woman (Minister) seems to be sincere. I really cannot give you more and would ask for your prays.