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Yes, the problem of evil is the main reason for my deconversion, but not the only reason.Atheist typically use the problem of evil as an argument against the Christian God (defined partly as an all-loving, all-powerful God). If you believe that the existence of evil is incompatible with the existence of the Christian God so defined, then you are making a positive claim against the existence of said Gd. You can't have it both ways.
Nope. You're the one who is saying gods exist. You're the one who's gonna have to prove it if you want me to believe you. Until you or any other theist comes up with either evidence or a better, non-contradictory definition of a god, I have no reason to believe that any such being exists.Are you listening to yourself? I am always asked to define our God. We partly define him to be all-knowing and all-loving...that are some of the characteristics of the God we proclaim to exist. The problem of evil argument is saying that the God as defined does not exist. You seem to be agreeing with that. Therefore, you have now taken on a burden of proof to back that claim up...you are no longer allowed to simply claim that you "lack of belief"...that ship has sailed.
That's an interesting argument, and I suppose I agree. If it's a choice between saying that the clever authors of the Old Testament are "wrong" for taking literary liberties that fit their culture's traditions, or saying that those who read it and don't understand the cultural context and intentions are the ones who are wrong, I would choose the latter.I would rather say it happens more from people reading the bible as they understand or misunderstand Him.
Actually both early Christians and modern Christians have information that gives them advantage. We have hindsight, we can see clearer what God foresaw. But we don't have cultural context or fresh memories of the events around that time, plus we have lots of accumulated baggage garbage from heretics, false teachers etc.That's an interesting argument, and I suppose I agree. If it's a choice between saying that the clever authors of the Old Testament are "wrong" for taking literary liberties that fit their culture's traditions, or saying that those who read it and don't understand the cultural context and intentions are the ones who are wrong, I would choose the latter.
Let me get this straight: Because Group A has chosen to construct a certain view of a deity, the burden of proof is on Group B to disprove their ideas or else lose the right to disagree? Does Group A have any evidence that makes it worth Group B's while?Are you listening to yourself? I am always asked to define our God. We partly define him to be all-knowing and all-loving...that are some of the characteristics of the God we proclaim to exist. The problem of evil argument is saying that the God as defined does not exist. You seem to be agreeing with that. Therefore, you have now taken on a burden of proof to back that claim up...you are no longer allowed to simply claim that you "lack of belief"...that ship has sailed.
Vice-versa, FYI.Nope. You're the one who is saying gods exist. You're the one who's gonna have to prove it if you want me to believe you. Until you or any other theist comes up with either evidence or a better, non-contradictory definition of a god, I have no reason to believe that any such being exists.
Why? Do you feel that you need to prove that there are no water nymphs in order to state that they don't exist? Disagreeing with someone because they haven't brought evidence to the table does not bring the burden of proof upon oneself. The whole point is that there's no evidence to be contradicted.Vice-versa, FYI.
Whoever is making an assertive claim (whether the claim is that God exist or that God does not exist) is on the hook for backup. You're not just sitting back and critiquing our arguments. In this case, you affirm that the problem of evil argument is a valid argument. Therefore you have now stepped up to the plate with making an assertive claim that God does not exist. So you are now bound to provide backup for that counter-claim. That's the nature of debate.Nope. You're the one who is saying gods exist. You're the one who's gonna have to prove it if you want me to believe you. Until you or any other theist comes up with either evidence or a better, non-contradictory definition of a god, I have no reason to believe that any such being exists.
Do you honestly go through life feeling that you can't make any negative claim unless you've searched every corner of the Earth and have empirical evidence that _____ does not exist? The human imagination is amazing and has come up with countless concepts that cannot technically be disproved, but I feel perfectly comfortable saying that they're just products of imagination unless evidence is presented.Whoever is making an assertive claim (whether the claim is that God exist or that God does not exist) is on the hook for backup. You're not just sitting back and critiquing our arguments. In this case, you affirm that the problem of evil argument is a valid argument. Therefore you have now stepped up to the plate with making an assertive claim that God does not exist. So you are now bound to provide backup for that counter-claim. That's the nature of debate.
In addition, it is also clear that you do not simply "lack a belief", but rather actually hold to a belief that the God we define does not exist.
It is not the same though. There is a perfectly reliable test that anyone is invited to perform in order to obtain proof. You can test it yourself, if you are willing. Rev 3:20.Why? Do you feel that you need to prove that there are no water nymphs in order to state that they don't exist? Disagreeing with someone because they haven't brought evidence to the table does not bring the burden of proof upon oneself. The whole point is that there's no evidence to be contradicted.
Why should I have to prove anything? I don't care if you believe me or not. I'm not trying to "win you over to atheism" or enlighten you in any way. It's theists who are trying to convince people that invisible beings with contradictory definitions exist. Those are the people who have something to prove.Whoever is making an assertive claim (whether the claim is that God exist or that God does not exist) is on the hook for backup. You're not just sitting back and critiquing our arguments. In this case, you affirm that the problem of evil argument is a valid argument. Therefore you have now stepped up to the plate with making an assertive claim that God does not exist. So you are now bound to provide backup for that counter-claim. That's the nature of debate.
In addition, it is also clear that you do not simply "lack a belief", but rather actually hold to a belief that the God we define does not exist.
I was a Christian for many years, FYI.It is not the same though. There is a perfectly reliable test that anyone is invited to perform in order to obtain proof. You can test it yourself, if you are willing. Rev 3:20.
It isn't though, it is God who is making the claim. Theists only testify to what they know or believe.Why should I have to prove anything? I don't care if you believe me or not. I'm not trying to "win you over to atheism" or enlighten you in any way. It's theists who are trying to convince people that invisible beings with contradictory definitions exist. Those are the people who have something to prove.
I'm sorry, I was raised Roman Catholic and I don't always understand the more flowery Christian rhetoric. Not an insult at all. I'm just not used to thinking in these terms and I'm not sure what you're asking. I was a Christian. I believed and was content.Does this mean that you have opened the door and He has come in and shared a meal with you?
Do you honestly go through life feeling that you can't make any negative claim unless you've searched every corner of the Earth and have empirical evidence that _____ does not exist? The human imagination is amazing and has come up with countless concepts that cannot technically be disproved, but I feel perfectly comfortable saying that they're just products of imagination unless evidence is presented.
Except, it isn't God making any claims, it is nameless, ancient men and the credulous who follow their claims. I've never heard God speak. I've never felt any kind of supernatural or divine presence. I only hear laymen talking about things that either happened 20 centuries ago or will happen after I die.It isn't though, it is God who is making the claim. Theists only testify to what they know or believe.
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