I have never heard an atheist appeal to his personal experiences proving the non-existence of gods. So, no.
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I have never heard an atheist appeal to his personal experiences proving the non-existence of gods. So, no.The same can be said of Atheist or part time shrinks.
Exactly.
No, it still doesn´t become a belief system because it can´t get any more complex than "no god".
It also doesn´t become a religion (unless you want to redefine the term to enable a false equivocation).
But all that might be interesting in a thread on semantics, which we don´t have here (even though I am aware that semantics wizardry is one of your favourite past times here).
The point being: All these explanations (peer pressure, education,l societal norms etc.) which have been brought up to explain the persistence of religion, don´t apply to atheism - exactly for the reasons I have stated: atheisms doesn´t have the history, atheism doesn´t have the tradition, doesn´t have the mythologies, doesn´t have the doctrines, doesn´t have the holidays, atheism doesn´t have milleniums of proselytizing under its belt etc. etc.
And the reason why this will hardly ever change is simple: Atheism doesn´t have anything positive to offer.
I guess I can´t keep you from calling anything anything, once you are determined to do so.Ok, that's a good counter point. Could we call Atheism the dedication to Godless ideals as a movement absent the reasons you stated above?
It isn't as if I have not thought my faith through.
I have looked at the scientific evidence...you know, evolution, etc...and I accept that as true, or at least as close as may be, remembering that new data could show up at any time, and science will have to readjust itself to compensate...
Indeed, it seems that science has managed to trace the universe back to it's beginning, some 14 billion years ago. (Remember, I'm just a dumb Christian, so I could be off by a millennia, or an epoch, or an eon...or so.)
Evidently, the "Big Bang" is the most widely accepted theory for the beginning of the universe, although there are others.
In any case, it seems that time, which is a feature of the universe, began whenever the universe began, and it further seems that the universe is still expanding. I mean, that was some explosion, yeah?
Now, I don't know whether it would be "critical thinking" or not, but of course, the first question is, where did the stuff that exploded come from? And next, what lies beyond our universe...what is it expanding into?
It seems pretty obvious to my poor brain that matter doesn't just appear out of nowhere...yes, I've read about particles that do seem to pop in and out of existence all on their own, and I've read about "dark matter" and other such mysteries. They only deepen my resolve. There has to be an ultimate source...or Source, if you will.
What could that source, or Source, be? God?
But what is God, then? Patience, I'll get to that....
Of course, this is where the reasoning hits a snag. Whatever it is that lies beyond our universe, and outside of time as we know it, must by it's very nature be undetectable. The only "evidence" we have that there must be something...or Someone..."out there" is the plain fact that the universe exists. It had a beginning, and according to the law of entropy, it must eventually have an ending.
So far, so good, yeah?
Next, we have the "fact of life". Even if you accept evolution, that still leaves you with the burning in the bosom that no antacid will cure...the question of "how did it begin". I have read about efforts to recreate the conditions on earth that gave rise to life...ribonucleoids, or whatever...basically what the Ninja Turtles would call "primordial ooze" (forgive me, I've been a Mom for a very long time)...and it occurs to me that, even if these "experiments" should ever be successful, and science does manage to produce a viable living organism (see me breathing...in...and out...I'm not holding my breath) all that will have been proven is that God did, after all, start with "the dust of the ground". To really impress me, science will have to produce it's own dust. Can you see the scientist, in his white lab coat, crying out "LET THERE BE DUST"!!!! Me either.
Again, it seems, there must be an ultimate Source.
Whatever it is, it would have to be pretty powerful, yeah?
The question is...what, or Who is that source? Is it God?
Of course, there are many many religions, with many many creation stories. Many many "Gods" to choose from, right? Yeah...that is a problem. Many many religions....many many "Gods"...
And here is where it gets intensely personal. Of course, as I was growing up most if not all of the people around me were "Christian"...even if they didn't go to church much. My parents, for instance, were not what anyone would call fanatics. We very rarely heard God mentioned in our house, and if we did get taken to church, it was either Easter or Christmas...or someone was getting baptized, confirmed (my Mom was Episcopalian), married, or buried.
However, I do realize that my experience probably colors my thinking a bit.
Still, as I read about other World Religions, I see men reaching out to a God that he instinctively knows must be there...
I say "instinctively" because men have always worshiped, as long as there were men advanced enough to be called "men".
But only in Christianity do I see God reaching down to men. Yes, I have read about other dying and everliving gods...my favorite is Mithra, or Mithras...
But it's not quite the same thing. God coming to earth as a Man, to reconcile all things to Himself...the way the Bible is written, how things tend to go in circles...well, these things convince me.
I do not accept the presupposition that this "gift" is authentic.In the case of Archaeopteryx he once had faith on this forum but at some point decided to work against the idea of God.
It does seem true though that the gift of faith is grace, not so much a decision but forsaking the faith gift
I work against fraud, misconception, misinformation, and false beliefs of those that have access to my children, their education system, and our government. Religious beliefs do get swept up in that.and working against God is a decision.
Only in your attempt to twist "disbelief" into "belief". Atheism is not religion, belief, or a system.There is nothing wrong with doubts per say, but Atheism is doubt made into a religious belief system.
It's hard for me to relate to those who attempt to understand the origins of the universe and end up finding "God" there. Probably because I see answering such a question as largely irrelevant. I like a good origin story as much as the next person, and they can definitely add to fascinating answers of "Why is this like that ?" and lead to even more interesting questions. But ultimately ... so what lol ? What does that have to do with TODAY, the here and now ? A deity who existed in some fashion in the past and created a bunch of stuff ... okay, so where is He now and what is He doing now ? Anything ?
To me, what is more relevant (and this is just my opinion, because of my own bias) ... is "what happens to us when we die". And it's not relevant because I grew up with a fear of death, quite the opposite. I actually didn't want to be alive, from my earliest memories. I didn't want to be alive, nor did I want to die ... I just wanted to rest. But anyways, to me, the ideas put forth that there may be some type of eternal punishment meted out on me because of choices I make in this life ... that is a question worth answering to one's satisfaction. Much in the same way of determining whether or not a threat to you is real. If someone starts sending you death threats ... you'll probably report them, try to find out who is sending them, neutralize and eliminate the threat, etc. Well, if there actually is a chance I will die and whatever-takes-place-afterwards will be worse than current existence ? I think that is important. Otherwise ... "God" becomes just another area to explore, another being to either know or not know. His existence isn't necessarily irrelevant, but ... so ?
IOW ... if there is something to be saved from, I think that would be worth answering: identifying the threat, and making sure me and loved ones were safe. Again ... it's hard for me to relate to those who have a fear of death, but I suppose I can relate to those who would want to avoid intense suffering without end lolI think that's a majority of people
Which leads to the point: the way many believers portray what they claim as "God" ... it is God who is the threat. The one threatening to destroy someone in a fiery doom.
Now ... how do you respond to threats, personally ? Would you do what you are told ? Would you develop Stockholm Syndrome and take the side of your captor and oppressor ? Would you willingly kill for the threat, or encourage the harm of others ? Or would you stand up to tyranny, stand against the threat, attempt to neutralize it yourself ?
So now look at your average terrorist of Islam, who actually kills in the name of their beliefs and God. Now ... look at the believer who is perfectly fine with worshipping a God who may torment someone whom values life, loves their life, cares for others ... yet simply didn't believe the way they thought they should believe. Though the actions may be different: one is actively killing while the other is standing by and waiting for their God to do it: is the heart that much different ? The desire to encourage and support death and destruction ?
Discipline and eternal torment are two different things.God is in the business of creating...not destroying.
The ultimate goal, here, is for us to be able to live in eternity. Can you imagine mankind as it is now, being immortal? The suffering would never end...
So yes...I believe there must be discipline, just like any parent trying to raise their kids to be decent citizens.
Jesus Himself says that some will be beaten with many stripes, some with few stripes.
Ancient Jewish beliefs speak of a "journey of the soul" as it works through all of the selfish, greedy, lustful desires and is purified so that we can live together in eternity as one big, happy family.
See how easy it is ?I very strongly suspect that "hell" is a human construct, dreampt up by the same kind of minds that thought the Inquisitions might be a good idea.
Beautiful thing to see with your dadI am a steelworkers daughter. Although it was highly against the rules, my Dad took me one night to watch steel being poured.
It was awesome. From a crane far over our heads, we watched as molten steel came down like a silvery waterfall, giving off tiny little stars as it came...absolutely beautiful.
I think we are sort of like that metal. We are the raw material...the "ore", if you will...and this life is the furnace. We are here to burn off the "dross"...whatever is impure...so that we can be pure and beautiful, as God intended us to be.
Discipline and eternal torment are two different things.
But I'll focus on this:
See how easy it is ?
Just apply the "I very strongly suspect that ____________ is a human construct, deampt up by the same kind of minds that thought the Inquisitions might be a good idea ..." and fill in the blank with many claimed beliefs, and you've answered many of your questions to atheists/unbelievers/etc in this very thread, because you can relate. For many, there is little reason to assume it isn't all just a construct of human minds, the same kinds of minds that think it's a good idea.
Having said that, however ... the rabbit peeps it's head out of the hole. At what point does one become content to write it off as merely human construct, or does one keep searching for possible truth and answers ? For many, they have become content to find even the question of gods existing at all as irrelevant. For you, I'm guessing you are content to view "hell" as a largely human construct. Thus, you've found one of your own thresholds of belief. Like with the Mormon or Cargo Cult. So when you have all these people asserting their "strong suspicions" and beliefs ... at what point do you become content that you've figured it out correctly ?
Beautiful thing to see with your dad
Got what ?By Jove, I think he's got it!
And Cargo Cults have physical evidence. The Mormon's have a written basis for their belief also. As do Muslims. As do ... you get the point I hope.Yes...but I do have a Biblical basis for my belief.
So why do Christians often take offense at the confusion/contradiction/flaws in their claims if they are essentially just "in the way" ? And if they believe they aren't to be focused on, why not just get out of the way and shut up lol ? Especially if you are all so sinful ? Also, why does it break your heart about Gandhi, if he was put off by Christian behavior ? Don't you say in your post that Christ is different from the Christian essentially ? So what does it matter ? By this train of thought, wouldn't it have been better had he never known any Christians at all since they are so sinful and shouldn't be looked at anyways ?I can understand how they might lose their faith in the traditional idea of God as represented by most of Christianity.
I think of Mahatma Gandhi and his remark that he likes our Christ, but not our Christians, as Christians are so unlike our Christ...and it breaks my heart that this great man got close enough to realize that Christ was Someone he could admire, but then he was put off by Christian behavior.
I would tell everyone...stop looking at the followers...fapetesake, we are SINNERS. Look instead at the Leader...He is the important one.
So in your opinion, why do so many believers make so many claims about God and Jesus ... if it's not about them, they are struggling to wrap their limited minds around something, and they are sinners who shouldn't be looked at anyways ? It sounds like a good case for the total disregard of Christianity ... unless of course you have limited mental ability, are sinful, and want to draw attention away from God to your own self. Then perhaps you'd make a fine "Christian".And to Christians, I would remind them that we are under a commandment to love one another with a Christ like love. The things we do and say do make a difference.
I doubt any of us have it "figured out correctly". We are struggling to wrap our finite minds around an infinite God...
The best we have is Jesus Christ. If you want to know what God is like, get to know His Son.
My condolencesYeah, it was. I miss him...
I do not accept the presupposition that this "gift" is authentic.
I work against fraud, misconception, misinformation, and false beliefs of those that have access to my children, their education system, and our government. Religious beliefs do get swept up in that.
Only in your attempt to twist "disbelief" into "belief". Atheism is not religion, belief, or a system.
Got what ?
And Cargo Cults have physical evidence. The Mormon's have a written basis for their belief also. As do Muslims. As do ... you get the point I hope.
Why should your appeal to a book be any different than anyone else's appeal to their stuff-n-things of a similar nature ?
So why do Christians often take offense at the confusion/contradiction/flaws in their claims if they are essentially just "in the way" ? And if they believe they aren't to be focused on, why not just get out of the way and shut up lol ? Especially if you are all so sinful ? Also, why does it break your heart about Gandhi, if he was put off by Christian behavior ? Don't you say in your post that Christ is different from the Christian essentially ? So what does it matter ? By this train of thought, wouldn't it have been better had he never known any Christians at all since they are so sinful and shouldn't be looked at anyways ?
So in your opinion, why do so many believers make so many claims about God and Jesus ... if it's not about them, they are struggling to wrap their limited minds around something, and they are sinners who shouldn't be looked at anyways ? It sounds like a good case for the total disregard of Christianity ... unless of course you have limited mental ability, are sinful, and want to draw attention away from God to your own self. Then perhaps you'd make a fine "Christian".
I'm not totally being tongue in cheek here ... because look at what you're actually saying lol
My condolences
I guess I can´t keep you from calling anything anything, once you are determined to do so.
Maybe you could tell me about those "Godless ideals" you know I pursue - I mean you have a good track record on making poor attempts at telling me what I think, based on the mere information that I am an atheist.
I am not aware that I am part of an atheistic movement, either. I have no affiliations to other atheists (in fact, most people that I meet in "movements" I participate in are theists) or groups that identify as "atheist". In fact, I don´t even know if such groups exist here.
I just don´t believe in any of the god concepts I have been made familiar with - and that makes me an atheist. I don´t need a movement or a belief system or a religion to reject a certain claim.
But again: Kudos for being so persistent in derailing the thread question and ignoring the actual point I was making, in favour of your "what could we possibly call what, with quite some stretch and equivocation effort".
However, as soon as you want to get back to the points (relevant to the thread question made, I will be all ears. Whereas the part of the conversation that is dedicated to your semantics games is over, as far as I am concerned.
Thanks for putting so much time and effort in responding, anyway.
Are you saying that we should consider your beliefs "myths"? I'm confused by your post.
What do you believe in? I mean, what is your stance? Are you suggesting that people do not believe in anything, the ground they are walking on? As if it doesn't even exist? Please help me understand.
Well, it wasn´t me who sidetracked. It was you who side-tracked my response which was entirely on topic.I did make a reply to the thread question in post #52 before being sidetracked with the issue of promotion.
That´s a lot of off-topic stuff.This was my pistol:
* The spirit of worship stimulated religious activity in the mind of evolving man, the result was evolutionary religions. This is by design, evolved religion provides the foundation for revealed religion.
* Religion isn't going away, it's evolving.
* Just like the stock market is in a bubble and will pop, society is in a reckless secular revolt against spirituality, a willful disobedience which contains the seeds of its own destruction.
* After mankind is once again brought to its knees due to its own ignorance, it will turn in humiliation back to the creator.
Atheists have been using these forums to dogmatically promote their disbelief as long as I have been a member (and probably before that as well).
That's your opinion which yes, is way easy. Non conformist hate labels even though they are all alike.
Atheist tend not to agree with this position for obvious reasons while my fellow believers often make the same observation about the promotion of Atheism as a belief or faith because Atheist can no more disprove God than believers can prove the existence of God. Atheist who are enthusiastic promoters of Atheism then live their Godless philosophy, expand upon it, promote it. Atheism becomes a kind of way of life.
Hmmm...interesting thread.
I would say that, if you are an atheist, and you regularly come into threads like this one, then yes, you are promoting atheism.
If not, what are you doing here?
Isn't atheism a 'godless lifestyle'?
Let me rephrase...isn't atheism living without God?
In the interest of listening and learning, I have a question here.
Do atheists make a conscious decision to reject religion?
You do realize that to a person who does have faith, living without it does seem meaningless.
And yes...we do believe that a person who has rejected God is doomed, although we are quite sad about it.
Is there a kind of peace in just not worrying about it?
There are many more books on the same subjects, from the same times, many of which were not considered for inclusion in the standard Protestant Bible. Some of these works, for example from the times of the early church fathers ... were quoted heavily by them, some arguably considered scripture ... yet not included. So from one perspective, the Bible is cherry picked. And to say it all hangs together, is debatable even amongst believers.Discipline and eternal torment are two different things. My point exactly.
I would say that there is no book of a similar nature. The Bible was written over a period of roughly 2000 years, give or take a hundred here or there. There are, I think, 40 different men involved, from different times, and even different continents.
And yet it all hangs together.
Yes my tongueI wouldn't say that Christians are "just in the way". We are supposed to be witnesses. It is our job to "make disciples"
As far as being "so sinful"..Hun, everyone is sinful. That is the whole point. We are all sinners, every single mother's child of us. That is why we need a Savior in the first place.
Perhaps I need to clarify. As Christians, we are supposed to grow in our faith. We envision ourselves as walking with Jesus...and the further along in our walk we are, the more like Him we ought to be. We are supposed to be "conformed to Christ"...that is, learning to love the way He does.
I am sad that the Christians around Gandhi were evidently not very far along in their walk. And I think that we...Christians, that is...need to take a lesson from this. The things we do and say do matter.
Compared to God, even Professor Stephan Hawking had "limited mental ability". God is omniscient. We are not.
Again, all people are sinful. But we do not have to be. We can submit ourselves to Christ and let Him clean us up and make us fit for God.
I think, too, that we ought to understand that not everyone who claims to be a Christian actually is one.
How to tell? Well, it's a tad difficult, since wheat and tares look so much alike. However, Jesus did give us a hint:
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Of course, we are also supposed to be humble, and peaceful, and all the rest of it...some of us are, others are still trying to catch up...and some will never make it. The main thing is that we are trying.
LOL, well...that tongue can be a little sharp, so...don't hurt yourself, huh?
(And I will try not to hurt myself on mine, either.)
Makes me happy to know your dad was lovedDear man, I am nearly 65 years old. My Dad has been gone a long time.
I still miss him, though...
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