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Why are there religious people?

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TheBarrd

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I suppose that would depend on the individual atheist. Most atheists would say that they do not consciously choose to lack belief; they just don't believe; they're not convinced..

Is that because of "lack of evidence"? I'm sorry...I have wondered about this for some time.

Yes, I understand that very well, because I once believed that also.

Did you? That is interesting. What made you change your mind?
If I am offending you, please let me know, and I will withdraw the question.
 
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Davian

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Now that's passive aggressive Dr. :p





I can actually agree with you on that point. It's easier to have either thrown in the towel or made the whole souled surrender, It's the in-between part is difficult for those on the path of faith.

I can imagine an odd form of serenity in the idea of just living our the rest of ones life to a meaningless end, perhaps even in fellowship with other doomed souls who offer solace in the decision.

What decision? Belief is not a decision.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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The reason that there are always religious people, even while history is moving along, is because it is inherent in the human condition. What changes is the KIND of religion, but religion itself is always present and always will be.

Christianity, as we have always known it, may be losing some of its appeal, but it has never ceased to evolve, so that its demise is not guaranteed. Meanwhile, and despite the predictions of some that religion is fading away, other religions take its place.

In addition to new cults that look just like religion but have different doctrines than we've been accustomed to, there are outwardly secular movements like Global Warming/Environmentalism that are into a cause that is just as much a religion as Christianity. And then there are the Science-worshippers, the devotees of primitive folk cultures, and etc. These are all religions.

Sounds like you think everything is a "religion," even evidence-based policy. No wonder you think religion is intrinsic to the human condition.
 
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bhsmte

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Archaeopteryx

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Is that because of "lack of evidence"? I'm sorry...I have wondered about this for some time.

Yes.

Did you? That is interesting. What made you change your mind?

It was a long and gradual process involving a lot of reading, conversation, and contemplation. It's difficult to summarise in a few sentences, and I've been meaning to write a blog about it for some time, but still haven't got around to it. Part of the evolution in my thinking is actually captured on this very forum. My earliest posts, for example, include prayers and some theological musings.

If I am offending you, please let me know, and I will withdraw the question.

Not at all.
 
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Albion

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Sounds like you think everything is a "religion," even evidence-based policy. No wonder you think religion is intrinsic to the human condition.

Well, I can't say why it "sounds" that way to you. Possibly, I didn't take the time to write twice as much as I did, so that no one could miss the point. Or it could be that you are stuck on superficialities.

But, no, I don't think "everything" is a religion. I don't think that fly fishing or cake baking is a religion, even among those who are real fans of such undertakings. But there are many movements that indeed partake of all the qualities of a religion, even if they do not posit a supreme being in the customary Judeo-Christian manner.

I would hope that any reader would understand that we already have religions that do not do that, and yet everyone considers them to be religions. So also with some of the contemporary movements that I referred to in my previous post. And BTW, it is not the case that to be a religion, any cause has to be absent an "evidence-based policy." Some religions are more "evidence-based" than others, but this certainly does not divide religions from non-religious movements.
 
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TheBarrd

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bhsmte

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Interesting article.
I still wonder, though.

What do you say to people who swear that they have experienced God in their lives?
Just curious.

The mind is a powerful thing.

If we have a strong need to believe in something and protect it, the mind will work overtime to convince ourselves, that what we believe is true. Defense mechanisms will be built and the belief will be protected.

You do realize, there are people who swear up and down they have been abducted by aliens, taken aboard their space craft and probed with medical instruments and then returned to their home?

These people believe so strongly in their personal experience, they have passed lie detector tests and have recounted their experience consistently under hypnosis.

Again, in the right circumstances, our mind can convince us of just about anything.
 
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Colter

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Not really. Just know when not to waste my efforts. A little wiser in that regard, perhaps.

Or I didn't buy your bs and handed it right back too;)-ya m8.



What decision? What meaninglessness? What doom? Riddles in the dark?[/QUOTE]

The decision to abandon faith and turn your back on God. The doom of eternal death. You won't be able to do riddles or crossword puzzles as there is no consciousness in death. We covered this already a few times.
 
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Colter

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The mind is a powerful thing.

If we have a strong need to believe in something and protect it, the mind will work overtime to convince ourselves, that what we believe is true. Defense mechanisms will be built and the belief will be protected.

You do realize, there are people who swear up and down they have been abducted by aliens, taken aboard their space craft and probed with medical instruments and then returned to their home?

These people believe so strongly in their personal experience, they have passed lie detector tests and have recounted their experience consistently under hypnosis.

Again, in the right circumstances, our mind can convince us of just about anything.

The same can be said of Atheist or part time shrinks.
 
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TillICollapse

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Interesting article.
I still wonder, though.

What do you say to people who swear that they have experienced God in their lives?
Just curious.
I had Mormons come to my door a few years ago, swearing they experienced God in their lives, that God spoke to them personally, and all the great things done in their lives by God. They prayed to God to make sure they were right, because they didn't want to be wrong, etc. As I recall, Mormons believe God was originally just a man or some such.

What would you say to such a person who swears they have experienced such a God in their lives ... a God who used to be a human being, used a previous prophet named Moroni who would later become an angel and reveal the golden plates to Joseph Smith, etc ?
 
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Colter

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What decision? Belief is not a decision.

In the case of Archaeopteryx he once had faith on this forum but at some point decided to work against the idea of God.

It does seem true though that the gift of faith is grace, not so much a decision but forsaking the faith gift and working against God is a decision. There is nothing wrong with doubts per say, but Atheism is doubt made into a religious belief system.
 
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Belk

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Many intellectuals of yesteryear used to predict that as western culture became more educated and more intelligent that religion would die off - especially Christianity. The assumption was that there were religious people because of a lack of education and low intelligence.

But they were wrong. All of these predictions have always been wrong.

There are equally brilliant, educated, and intelligent people who are both atheists and religious. The difference doesn't seem to be one of education or intelligence. So what is the difference?

Why are there religious people? Christianity has an answer, but what's the secular answer?


Whom exactly? The only one I can think of is Marx and he thought it would need to be killed off, not die off by itself.
 
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TheBarrd

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I had Mormons come to my door a few years ago, swearing they experienced God in their lives, that God spoke to them personally, and all the great things done in their lives by God. They prayed to God to make sure they were right, because they didn't want to be wrong, etc. As I recall, Mormons believe God was originally just a man or some such.

What would you say to such a person who swears they have experienced such a God in their lives ... a God who used to be a human being, used a previous prophet named Moroni who would later become an angel and reveal the golden plates to Joseph Smith, etc ?

LOL...I'd rather not get into the Mormon vs Christianity debate in this thread, if you don't mind. I've gotten myself into too much trouble already, telling Mormons what I think about it.

I'm not talking here about a "burning in the bosom"...that can usually be dealt with by taking a good antacid.
 
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TillICollapse

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LOL...I'd rather not get into the Mormon vs Christianity debate in this thread, if you don't mind. I've gotten myself into too much trouble already, telling Mormons what I think about it.

I'm not talking here about a "burning in the bosom"...that can usually be dealt with by taking a good antacid.
We don't have to get into a debate about. I take it then that you dismiss their claims however, and actually have quite a reaction to it (based on the "burning" and antacid reference). However without debating ... I'm assuming you dismiss their claims based on your beliefs, your understanding of Protestant scriptures, some of your own reasoning (I'd guess the idea of "God" ever being a human being probably doesn't seem logically consistent with your own concept of what a "God" should even be in order to be considered a God) etc ... yes ?

Now contrast that with, say, the way you may view a Cargo Cult. Pick the popular John Frum. Would you take seeing a huge model of a plane made out of sticks and such as seriously as some of the claims of a Mormon ? You'd probably immediately recognize it as "Hey, that's just an airplane." Would you consider following John Frum in the hopes that you had goods bestowed upon you in your life ? Would you consider that these people actually were onto something ... that instead of just being a service man in an airplane that brought goods to the people, he was actually an incarnation of a spirit vision, preparing them for a coming age, and that they had to reject all these aspects of their life in order to receive what he could bestow upon them, etc ? What would you say to such a person that was convinced that John Frum was actually a supernatural being, and how seriously would it even effect you ? In this case, instead of appealing to your own belief system, interpretations of scriptures, expectations of what a deity should even be, etc ... you'd appeal to what you take for granted as common every-day things: airplanes, white people, military operations, people named "John" who are "from" such and such a place. There would be no need to compare belief system to belief system, because you could easily see the origin or their own system as being ordinary and mundane and easily explainable.

For some unbelievers, apply that same principle. One could see the belief of a "modern", First World believer in Christianity, and even their insistence on a God encounter ... as nothing more than imaginative thinking and feelings and psychological or emotional needs. The result of a lack of critical thinking and knowledge of one's environment and the world. Their church is built with their own hands, their images are made with their own hands (crosses, garb, traditional implements, icons, incense), they often hope for the same things Cargo Cults hope for, for that matter: assistance, a better future, insight into and explanation of mystery. However it's all man-made. No reason to suspect the supernatural. It's just a modern, First World version of what humans have been doing for centuries, building upon the ancient mythologies that preceded them and attempting to reconcile them with advances in critical thinking and inquiry of the nature of reality around us: and a Cargo Cult is a simple example of something you can relate to and easily trace the origins of. So there is no need for some believers to compare one's beliefs and claims with some other set of beliefs and claims ... it's not a "for God or against God !" necessarily, just like your rejection of John Frum as a deity or spirit incarnation doesn't mean you are AGAINST John Frum. Rather, you recognize it as a false dichotomy: John Frum was just a service man most likely, that the locals didn't understand. You're not rejecting him or against him, you simply recognize he's not a "god" lol. It has no effect on you to believe or disbelieve because it's an irrelevant consideration. Well, for many, the claims of many believers aren't rejected with prejudice (like say, your rejection of Mormon claims I imagine). For some it's simply recognizing them as imaginative thinking, mythology of misunderstood phenomena, emotional and psychological needs, etc. They reference reality itself and seek more evidence in order to believe. I imagine it would take an extraordinary amount of evidence to convince you that God was a human being and that Moroni and the gold plates were legit. I also assume it would take an enromous amount of evidence to convince you that John Frum was an incarnated spirit. In fact, I may be willing to guess that no amount of supernatural and spectacular evidence would convince you that John Frum or the Mormon "God" was real ... because you could probably claim it was a trick of the devil and a test of your faith (I'm guessing). Well, the average unbeliever isn't even at that level yet ... there still is often a possibility they would believe, depending on what evidence could presented. So it could be argued that the unbelief of the believer towards all other "gods" is often stronger then the lack of belief of the unbeliever towards the very god the believer believes in lol. IOW, their minds may be more open to your possibilities, then your own is to others.

All of that to say ... each unbeliever is different, however for some it's a rather simple matter and takes little effort to recognize for them, as nothing more than magical thinking. Again: Cargo Cult.
 
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TheBarrd

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We don't have to get into a debate about. I take it then that you dismiss their claims however, and actually have quite a reaction to it (based on the "burning" and antacid reference). However without debating ... I'm assuming you dismiss their claims based on your beliefs, your understanding of Protestant scriptures, some of your own reasoning (I'd guess the idea of "God" ever being a human being probably doesn't seem logically consistent with your own concept of what a "God" should even be in order to be considered a God) etc ... yes ?

Now contrast that with, say, the way you may view a Cargo Cult. Pick the popular John Frum. Would you take seeing a huge model of a plane made out of sticks and such as seriously as some of the claims of a Mormon ? You'd probably immediately recognize it as "Hey, that's just an airplane." Would you consider following John Frum in the hopes that you had goods bestowed upon you in your life ? Would you consider that these people actually were onto something ... that instead of just being a service man in an airplane that brought goods to the people, he was actually an incarnation of a spirit vision, preparing them for a coming age, and that they had to reject all these aspects of their life in order to receive what he could bestow upon them, etc ? What would you say to such a person that was convinced that John Frum was actually a supernatural being, and how seriously would it even effect you ? In this case, instead of appealing to your own belief system, interpretations of scriptures, expectations of what a deity should even be, etc ... you'd appeal to what you take for granted as common every-day things: airplanes, white people, military operations, people named "John" who are "from" such and such a place. There would be no need to compare belief system to belief system, because you could easily see the origin or their own system as being ordinary and mundane and easily explainable.

For some unbelievers, apply that same principle. One could see the belief of a "modern", First World believer in Christianity, and even their insistence on a God encounter ... as nothing more than imaginative thinking and feelings and psychological or emotional needs. The result of a lack of critical thinking and knowledge of one's environment and the world. Their church is built with their own hands, their images are made with their own hands (crosses, garb, traditional implements, icons, incense), they often hope for the same things Cargo Cults hope for, for that matter: assistance, a better future, insight into and explanation of mystery. However it's all man-made. No reason to suspect the supernatural. It's just a modern, First World version of what humans have been doing for centuries, building upon the ancient mythologies that preceded them and attempting to reconcile them with advances in critical thinking and inquiry of the nature of reality around us: and a Cargo Cult is a simple example of something you can relate to and easily trace the origins of. So there is no need for some believers to compare one's beliefs and claims with some other set of beliefs and claims ... it's not a "for God or against God !" necessarily, just like your rejection of John Frum as a deity or spirit incarnation doesn't mean you are AGAINST John Frum. Rather, you recognize it as a false dichotomy: John Frum was just a service man most likely, that the locals didn't understand. You're not rejecting him or against him, you simply recognize he's not a "god" lol. It has no effect on you to believe or disbelieve because it's an irrelevant consideration. Well, for many, the claims of many believers aren't rejected with prejudice (like say, your rejection of Mormon claims I imagine). For some it's simply recognizing them as imaginative thinking, mythology of misunderstood phenomena, emotional and psychological needs, etc. They reference reality itself and seek more evidence in order to believe. I imagine it would take an extraordinary amount of evidence to convince you that God was a human being and that Moroni and the gold plates were legit. I also assume it would take an enromous amount of evidence to convince you that John Frum was an incarnated spirit. In fact, I may be willing to guess that no amount of supernatural and spectacular evidence would convince you that John Frum or the Mormon "God" was real ... because you could probably claim it was a trick of the devil and a test of your faith (I'm guessing). Well, the average unbeliever isn't even at that level yet ... there still is often a possibility they would believe, depending on what evidence could presented. So it could be argued that the unbelief of the believer towards all other "gods" is often stronger then the lack of belief of the unbeliever towards the very god the believer believes in lol. IOW, their minds may be more open to your possibilities, then your own is to others.

All of that to say ... each unbeliever is different, however for some it's a rather simple matter and takes little effort to recognize for them, as nothing more than magical thinking. Again: Cargo Cult.

Your rather long winded point is well taken. However, I do have more to say on the subject, but I'll have to post it separately...since CF does seem to have a limit on how long one post may be, and I might get a tad long winded myself.
If you will bear with me.....
 
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quatona

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To an unwise person a lot of things might seem logical.
Exactly.

Atheism becomes a religion or a belief system when it goes from being merely a neutral "I don't believe" position to the promotion of non-belief in a social system.
No, it still doesn´t become a belief system because it can´t get any more complex than "no god".
It also doesn´t become a religion (unless you want to redefine the term to enable a false equivocation).
But all that might be interesting in a thread on semantics, which we don´t have here (even though I am aware that semantics wizardry is one of your favourite past times here).

The point being: All these explanations (peer pressure, education,l societal norms etc.) which have been brought up to explain the persistence of religion, don´t apply to atheism - exactly for the reasons I have stated: atheisms doesn´t have the history, atheism doesn´t have the tradition, doesn´t have the mythologies, doesn´t have the doctrines, doesn´t have the holidays, atheism doesn´t have milleniums of proselytizing under its belt etc. etc.
And the reason why this will hardly ever change is simple: Atheism doesn´t have anything positive to offer.
 
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TheBarrd

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It isn't as if I have not thought my faith through.
I have looked at the scientific evidence...you know, evolution, etc...and I accept that as true, or at least as close as may be, remembering that new data could show up at any time, and science will have to readjust itself to compensate...
Indeed, it seems that science has managed to trace the universe back to it's beginning, some 14 billion years ago. (Remember, I'm just a dumb Christian, so I could be off by a millennia, or an epoch, or an eon...or so.)
Evidently, the "Big Bang" is the most widely accepted theory for the beginning of the universe, although there are others.
In any case, it seems that time, which is a feature of the universe, began whenever the universe began, and it further seems that the universe is still expanding. I mean, that was some explosion, yeah?
Now, I don't know whether it would be "critical thinking" or not, but of course, the first question is, where did the stuff that exploded come from? And next, what lies beyond our universe...what is it expanding into?
It seems pretty obvious to my poor brain that matter doesn't just appear out of nowhere...yes, I've read about particles that do seem to pop in and out of existence all on their own, and I've read about "dark matter" and other such mysteries. They only deepen my resolve. There has to be an ultimate source...or Source, if you will.
What could that source, or Source, be? God?
But what is God, then? Patience, I'll get to that....
Of course, this is where the reasoning hits a snag. Whatever it is that lies beyond our universe, and outside of time as we know it, must by it's very nature be undetectable. The only "evidence" we have that there must be something...or Someone..."out there" is the plain fact that the universe exists. It had a beginning, and according to the law of entropy, it must eventually have an ending.
So far, so good, yeah?
Next, we have the "fact of life". Even if you accept evolution, that still leaves you with the burning in the bosom that no antacid will cure...the question of "how did it begin". I have read about efforts to recreate the conditions on earth that gave rise to life...ribonucleoids, or whatever...basically what the Ninja Turtles would call "primordial ooze" (forgive me, I've been a Mom for a very long time)...and it occurs to me that, even if these "experiments" should ever be successful, and science does manage to produce a viable living organism (see me breathing...in...and out...I'm not holding my breath) all that will have been proven is that God did, after all, start with "the dust of the ground". To really impress me, science will have to produce it's own dust. Can you see the scientist, in his white lab coat, crying out "LET THERE BE DUST"!!!! Me either.
Again, it seems, there must be an ultimate Source.
Whatever it is, it would have to be pretty powerful, yeah?
The question is...what, or Who is that source? Is it God?
Of course, there are many many religions, with many many creation stories. Many many "Gods" to choose from, right? Yeah...that is a problem. Many many religions....many many "Gods"...
And here is where it gets intensely personal. Of course, as I was growing up most if not all of the people around me were "Christian"...even if they didn't go to church much. My parents, for instance, were not what anyone would call fanatics. We very rarely heard God mentioned in our house, and if we did get taken to church, it was either Easter or Christmas...or someone was getting baptized, confirmed (my Mom was Episcopalian), married, or buried.
However, I do realize that my experience probably colors my thinking a bit.

Still, as I read about other World Religions, I see men reaching out to a God that he instinctively knows must be there...
I say "instinctively" because men have always worshiped, as long as there were men advanced enough to be called "men".
But only in Christianity do I see God reaching down to men. Yes, I have read about other dying and everliving gods...my favorite is Mithra, or Mithras...
But it's not quite the same thing. God coming to earth as a Man, to reconcile all things to Himself...the way the Bible is written, how things tend to go in circles...well, these things convince me.
 
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quatona

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Interesting article.
I still wonder, though.

What do you say to people who swear that they have experienced God in their lives?
Just curious.

Why would I have to say something to them, anyway?

What do you say to people who swear they have been abducted by aliens?

How do you feel we should deal with exceptional claims of personal experiences that come without intersubjective evidence?

Anyway, depending on the setting, circumstances and athmosphere I might ask them how they knew that whatever it was they experienced was God, for starters. (When I talk to a Christian friend of mine about my experiences and interpretations thereof oftentimes she tells me "See, that´s what I mean when I say 'experiencing God'.)
 
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