Archaeopteryx
Wanderer
Why should we care about how Christians feel about homosexuality?
Baking a cake is also not persecution, despite the cringeworthy whining of certain Christian bakers.
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
I'm amazed how often people here refuse to really listen to each other. Atheists don't seem to care at all how Christians actually feel about anything. Can you say bullying?
Refusing to bake a cake is not persecution anymore than a gay baker refusing to make a cake with a homophobic message would be persecution. It's just a matter of conscience and decency. I guess now days that's all thrown out the window in the name of rights for "protected groups".
I meant "liberal" as in respecting a persons natural rights. Freedom of speech and association are basic rights. In a controversial issue like gay marriage, making a wedding cake with the names of two people of the same sex could be construed as a political statement. Forcing someone to do that against their conscience is illiberal. You need a very good reason to justify that. And I don't see anybody having a right to a wedding cake in the Constitution, sorry.
Yes, and lack of belief is lack of belief.
I'm happy to acknowledge what I do believe about life. But you don't seem interested in that. All that matters to you is what I don't believe, which you mistakenly equate to a belief.
Yes, people have beliefs about all sorts of things. Where have I denied this? What point are you getting at, if any?
That's a "godless ideal"? It seems just like an idea to me. But apparently we can't even discuss this idea without being accused of violating neutrality, as though neutrality were some sort of sacred norm.
Rights for everyone except for those who are people of faith (this doesn't just affect Christians).
The only reason you support this line of reasoning is because believers get hurt by it.
I can understand not wanting to bake a wedding cake with a message on it, but not wanting to fix a car or bake pizza is not something I'd ever understand.
I think at this point you are just being pig headed.
I've never said lack of a belief is a belief per say, I said that an old belief changes to a new belief, when that belief is a Godless universe and is promoted then you are promoting the belief in a Godless universe. If you are honest with yourself then this should be self evident.
No, as a customer, I don't know that. No where on the shopfront does it say "This is a Christian establishment" or "We reserve the right to not serve sinners as we see fit". It's a bakery. I don't care about the religion of the baker.
Some Christians have a problem with homosexuality. So even if I knew that the bakery was a "Christian establishment" (whatever that means), I wouldn't know whether the baker had some religious objection to homosexuality or not. In any case, how they feel about homosexuality is irrelevant to the reason I'm there. I'm not there as a customer to ask for their opinions on SSM, but to buy baked goods. I'm not there to hear a sermon, but to buy a cake.
I want to be treated fairly and like every other customer who walks through the door. Is that really too much to ask?
I'm not gay. I've been with my partner for almost 10 years. If we were to marry I doubt we'd have any difficulty obtaining cake. My brother is gay. If he were to marry I would want him and his partner to be treated the same way my partner and I are treated.
How petty and vindictive. You should be ashamed.
If they don't put up a sign saying that they are a Christian establishment, then you can't be expected to know. In that case, you'd be right. They should have done the cake.
If they have put out a sign, there's a pretty good likelihood that the owners are the kind of Christians (like me) who carry their faith into every aspect of their lives. Those kind of Christians usually take the Bible very seriously. And it does say that gay sex is an abomination. Because it does, a serious Christian cannot endorse it. His faith is the most important thing in his life, and he will not violate it.
Now, if I were gay, I'd avoid business that have such signs, just as a matter of good manners.
I don't wish to shove my faith down anyone's throat, although I know that there are Christians who do that. And I'm pretty sure I'd be even more hesitant to shove my sex life down anyone's throat.
It isn't nice.
And Christians want to be free to respect their God, even in their businesses. Is that too much to ask?
I'm sure he wouldn't have any difficulty obtaining a cake either. There are tons of bakeries that would trip all over themselves to get his business.
And they'd do the best job they could, too. It wouldn't be like "we're being forced to do this against our will, so let's just get the da....rn job over with already." And you get a rushed, second rate cake at best, which is all you deserve anyway, for insisting on making someone who had a legitimate religious objection comply with your unreasonable and very rude demands.
I don't like strong arm tactics, what can I say? Be rude to me, and I just might be rude back. Accidents happen in any business, don't they? This would be one time I'd happily absorb the cost...
And no, I'm not a bit ashamed. If you were to try to rape me, I would not just lie down for you...you might find a nail file in your eye. It happens....
I don't respect your beliefs. I respect your right to have beliefs, but why should I respect your beliefs? Your beliefs about homosexuality are bigoted. I don't respect that at all.
I object to the notion that Christians who do not share your prejudice towards gay people are not "serious Christians". They are just as serious about their religion as you are.
Good manners? It's also good manners to treat prospective customers well.
No one is shoving sex down your throat.
If that means discriminating against certain members of the public in a business open to the public, then don't open such a business. You shouldn't expect others to bend over backwards to accommodate your religious sensitivities.
Expecting to be treated like every other customer who walks through the door is neither unreasonable nor rude.
Wow. You're comparing baking a cake, your job (if you are a baker), to rape. If you weren't ashamed before, you certainly should be now. Or do you want to aim even lower?
If they have put out a sign, there's a pretty good likelihood that the owners are the kind of Christians (like me) who carry their faith into every aspect of their lives. Those kind of Christians usually take the Bible very seriously.
Oh, cow patties. Every time we turn around these days, it's gay this and gay the other, and gay pride parades, and even kiddie movies showing families with two moms or two dads.
The law says that I am free to worship as I please, and that congress can make no laws affecting the free practice of my faith. There is nothing in that precious first amendment that says "except in the pursuit of business affairs"...so, strictly speaking, congress has violated the constitution in this case.
Trying to force someone to comply with your demands when there are many other perfectly acceptable places where you would be heartily welcomed is.
My faith is that important to me. I am not ashamed of that fact.
Maybe it is your aim that is out of kilter, here.
I would love to see your attitude if Christians were readily refused service by muslim or hindu business owners, based on the business owners religious beliefs.
What? I'm trying to think of a single Christian that I know "in real life" who in the past 5 years or so has said that they're against same-sex marriage (or at least equal couple rights under another name), much less who thinks that they're all going to Hell...much less someone whose concept of Christianity is turning away customers based on such things. The topic comes up all the time, and I don't think I've ever heard that. And I've been in Catholic schools (and now university) all my life. Of course, support for it is negatively correlated with age.You know that the bakery is a Christian establishment. You know that Christians have a problem with gay.
I could say the same of you. You implied that atheists should be neutral, but never argued why, and you defined 'neutrality' in such a way that it is impossible for us to discuss these matters 'neutrally' anyway.
This sounds like gibberish to me. What "old belief" and what "new belief" specifically?
Wow, the hatred is really starting to come out.
Does how other people choose to live their lives, somehow force you to live your life differently? Or, do you still have the freedom to live your life as you choose?
Yes indeed.
Are you free to worship the God of your choosing?
Are you free to attend the church of your choosing?
Is your church free to accept or reject people as members freely?
Is your private school allowed to accept or reject whoever they wish?
Is your private club allowed to accept or reject whoever they wish?
Are you allowed to pick your friends freely?
Are you allowed to not socialize or not invite people in your home if you wish?
The above opportunities to discriminate don't appear to satisfy some and they need to extend discrimination, to a public accommodating business they voluntarily opened to the public.
I would love to see your attitude if Christians were readily refused service by muslim or hindu business owners, based on the business owners religious beliefs.
And you have many freedoms to practice your faith and discriminate against those who you disagree with, as I have pointed out above. You just can't do so in one area; public accommodating businesses, deal with it.
I'm sure I do not have to quote the scriptures to you. You know as well as I do that God has said that for a man to lie with a man as with a woman is an abomination, and I know that you are aware that this is repeated in the New Testament as well. I'm pretty sure that you know that Jesus, Himself, defined marriage as being between a man and a woman, stating that it has been so since the beginning. Those scriptures are still there, they haven't gone anywhere. Not one jot or tittle has gone anywhere. I'm sure you know that, too.
So, it's just a matter of, as a Christian, are you true to the Word of God, or do you make up your own rules as is convenient for you?
I am one of those Christians who is more concerned about keeping the commandments of God than whether or not I am "politically correct".
You can object to that all you like. It is not going to change.
Yes, it is. Therefore, when faced with this type of situation, I would very politely say, "I am sorry sir. My faith will not allow me to comply with your request. However, Mr. Baker over in the next block will do a great job for you, and at a better price than I would have charged if I had done it."
And then I would have smiled, made the Vulcan hand symbol, and said "Live long and prosper."
Oh, cow patties. Every time we turn around these days, it's gay this and gay the other, and gay pride parades, and even kiddie movies showing families with two moms or two dads.
If I had to go strictly by what I see all over the internet and in the media, I'd almost wonder if there were more gay than straight couples.
Perhaps some alien mother ship has sprayed us with some substance that makes people want sex with their own gender. The plan is to wait until no one is producing children any more. That last generation will start dying off, and then they will take over. That way they can take our planet without a messy war...dead bodies all over the place can be such a nuisance...
The law says that I am free to worship as I please, and that congress can make no laws affecting the free practice of my faith. There is nothing in that precious first amendment that says "except in the pursuit of business affairs"...so, strictly speaking, congress has violated the constitution in this case.
Trying to force someone to comply with your demands when there are many other perfectly acceptable places where you would be heartily welcomed is.
My faith is that important to me. I am not ashamed of that fact.
Maybe it is your aim that is out of kilter, here.
What you believed before and what you believe now.
And I'm sure I do not have to quote the countless other "sins" of the Bible that you happily ignore, such as wearing clothes woven from two different fabrics or picking up sticks on the sabbath. Those scriptures are still there also. Not one jot or tittle has gone anywhere.
Those aren't mutually exclusive categories: just make your own rules and claim that it's the Word of God.
I sincerely hope that you're not serious about "keeping the commandments of God," since that may require you to do some very immoral things.
Sugarcoating it doesn't help.
And what's wrong with that? How is that shoving sex down your throat? You aren't suggesting that the mere depiction of a gay couple in a movie is tantamount to shoving sex down your throat? When you see a heterosexual couple holding hands in the park do you walk up to them and say, "Stop shoving sex down my throat"?
Don't know what to make of this.
Your right to worship is not limitless. It does not afford you the privilege to violate laws you find inconvenient by invoking a religious exemption. In this particular case, you have opted to operate a business to members of the public, and you are therefore bound to the laws governing such businesses.
What demands? All I expect as a customer is to be treated like all other customers who enter that place of business.
I know it's important to you. But it's not important to me, nor does it need to be. I'm not there to hear a sermon. I'm there to buy baked goods. Your faith is the last thing on my mind.
You compared the act of baking to rape. Perhaps yours is out of kilter, by a wide margin.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?