Why are so many people so bad?

quatona · Nov 29, 2017

Chesterton said:
Atheists (maybe not you) will sometimes use that "pale blue dot" observation. Earth is just a speck of dust in a vast uncaring cosmos with no purpose or meaning. If you choose to believe that then you need to be consistent. If you have an emotional need to make up your own meaning, or custom-made right and wrong, then go ahead.

Yes, that´s what I mean when saying "meaning" - something that means something to me or someone else. The fact that you superimpose standards upon my statements that aren´t mine isn´t really helping. If you think that meaning is delusional just because it is created (and if you insist on creating=making up), I wonder how your Christian metaphysics work, then. It´s what you praise your God for...

You can make up fairy tales too, but don't pretend that what you make up is real or true, or binding on anyone else.

All I would claim is that something really means something to me. "Meaning" isn´t a matter of truth or binding for anyone.

Chesterton · Nov 29, 2017

Ana the Ist said:
Well after getting through the video...I'll say that it's either accidentally dishonest or deliberately dishonest...I'm not sure which. As I already pointed out, he doesn't attempt to define "delusion" instead avoiding that issue entirely and trying to instead argue about what is "natural" and what's "unnatural".

I could simply defeat his whole argument by pointing out that "natural" and "unnatural" have nothing to do with "delusion". In fact, I could be the only person in the world who holds a particular belief...everyone could believe the opposite of me...and if I'm correct, I can't be delusional...but everyone else can.

I think delusion is a lot simpler than you and the psychologists want to make it. A delusion has to be impossible. In that first example you gave about the old lady worried about her kids wanting her money. That's in no way a delusion. That's a suspiscion. It could be more or less reasonable depending on the evidence she has, but unfortunately that kind of thing happens. The second example is delusion, because everyone knows there are no human clones (yet) and no one's replacing people with them. That's impossible. So is God possible? Absolutely, so there's no delusion in believing in God.

Furthermore, he doesn't get into describing the cognitive biases that make "religion" "natural"...mainly because they aren't very good at discerning truth, but they're great at deceiving. It's a bit funny that's where he decided to rest his argument...on cognitive biases.

It's just a short video.

Ana the Ist · Nov 29, 2017

SolomonVII said:
Morality in its simplest form is actually the only morality that there is. That is to say, the window in which humans become moral creatures closes at around four years old, and if a kid has a hard time getting along with other after that age, it is unlikely that he ever will be able to develop the moral sense that makes getting along with others possible.

Where in the world did you get this idea?

Morality is not a rational choice. We can all rationalize about why this action or that action is good or bad, and use utilitarian or religious reasons to support our arguments, but morality is not an argument. It is not a belief.

Again, where are you getting these ideas?

The reason we don't torture cats because we know in our bones that it is wrong, and to even the idea of violating that moral principle against animal abuse would be something that we would abhor and would fill us with horror.

You do realize that some people do in fact torture cats?

Morality is that kind of powerful inner experience, or it is nothing at all. A psychopath would be able to give lots of reasons why not to torture a cat, and the arguments would be most convincing, but that doesn't mean that he would feel anything at all about actually torturing that cat, if that is what he felt like doing at another time.

I fail to see how this relates to your previous statements in this post. Perhaps you could reword it?

There is the Jewish saying that it is fear of God, and not wisdom,that is the predictor of the moral actions of a man. All the wisdom in the world does not stop us from evil. Morality is like hell fire burning deep in the bones, and if a person does not have that experience about good and evil by the age of four, chances are he never will.

Surely there's some academic paper which backs up this statement? Do you have a link to it?

Ana the Ist · Nov 29, 2017

Chesterton said:
I think delusion is a lot simpler than you and the psychologists want to make it. A delusion has to be impossible.

No...it doesn't. I can't imagine why you would think it does.

In that first example you gave about the old lady worried about her kids wanting her money. That's in no way a delusion.

Sure it is...what do you think disqualifies it?

That's a suspiscion. It could be more or less reasonable depending on the evidence she has, but unfortunately that kind of thing happens. The second example is delusion, because everyone knows there are no human clones (yet) and no one's replacing people with them. That's impossible.

Your definition of delusion isn't exactly accurate...or useful.

So is God possible? Absolutely, so there's no delusion in believing in God.

I'm curious how you decided god is "possible"...and why that disqualifies him from being delusion.

If I believe that I'm the strongest man alive....that's something in the realm of possibility...but it's still a delusion.

Chesterton · Nov 29, 2017

quatona said:
Yes, that´s what I mean when saying "meaning" - something that means something to me or someone else. The fact that you superimpose standards upon my statements that aren´t mine isn´t really helping. If you think that meaning is delusional just because it is created (and if you insist on creating=making up), I wonder how your Christian metaphysics work, then. It´s what you praise your God for...

He's God, and we're not. Our creativity derives from His.

All I would claim is that something really means something to me. "Meaning" isn´t a matter of truth or binding for anyone.

"Doin' nothin' means a lot to me" - Bon Scott

Sure you can make anything or nothing mean anything, but again, you need to be consistent. I submit that if you really truly believe meaning is simply made up in your head about whatever you want, and that's the final answer, you wouldn't bother to be a member of CF. If you're content knowing that what you make up for yourself is all that matters, why would you bother talking about all this other stuff?

Chesterton · Nov 29, 2017

Ana the Ist said:
No...it doesn't. I can't imagine why you would think it does.

A suspicion is not a delusion. It may be more or less reasonable, but if it's possible, it's not delusion.

Sure it is...what do you think disqualifies it?

The fact that she is thinking, she has not decided absolutely. And even if she has decided absolutely, she could be right.

Your definition of delusion isn't exactly accurate...or useful.

Why do you say that?

I'm curious how you decided god is "possible"...and why that disqualifies him from being delusion.

If I believe that I'm the strongest man alive....that's something in the realm of possibility...but it's still a delusion.

Have you decided God is impossible?

Everybodyknows · Nov 29, 2017

Chesterton said:
I'm not arguing for an objective morality; I don't even much care for the term.

But you were saying we know by our conscience what is objectively good or bad, apart from the effects, just because they're good or bad. How is that not objective morality?

Things change. Jesus tried to change things. Vegetarians may be on the right side of history, as they say. The ancients thought owning slaves was the most normal thing in the world, but that changed. We think eating animals is the most normal thing in the world, but that could change.

So, what our consciences know to be good and bad is continually changing? How do you explain this?

That doesn't alter the fact that we as individuals continually judge what we believe about right and wrong.

By what means do we judge in a world where right and wrong are changing?

I'm not really following what point you are trying to make, you seem to have completely changed your tune.

JoeP222w · Nov 29, 2017

dysert said:
This is a serious question. Let's pretend, for the sake of this thread, that there is no spiritual realm and there was no Fall. What reason do people give for the abundance of bad people? Thieves, liars, sexual predators, murderers, etc. It's rife, and it's non-stop. In the absence of a spiritual realm, why are so many people so bad?

Because there is no one who is good.

Genesis 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

quatona · Nov 29, 2017

Chesterton said:
He's God, and we're not. Our creativity derives from His.

That may or may not be the case if God exists. But it is besides the point.
Either you value creativity or you don´t and put it off as "delusion".

Sure you can make anything or nothing mean anything, but again, you need to be consistent.

Sure, and so do you.

I submit that if you really truly believe meaning is simply made up in your head about whatever you want,

Look, I always get suspicious when someone adds stuff like "really, truly...simply...final" to the statements of others (thankfully, you left out "ultimately", though ). This indicates to me that they are superimposing some unmentioned (and probably unshared) standards on the statement.

and that's the final answer,

I don´t think I have presented it as a final answer. At this point, I don´t even know what the question was to which you feel it was meant to give a "final answer".

you wouldn't bother to be a member of CF.

Doesn´t follow.

If you're content knowing that what you make up for yourself is all that matters,

I didn´t say nor mean to say it´s "all that matters". Then again, everything I encounter as"meaningful" is brought to me through my creativity, so there´s nothing in my world excempt from it.

why would you bother talking about all this other stuff?

Which other stuff?

Freodin · Nov 29, 2017

Chesterton said:
That's why I asked for an example.

And you offered your non-answer after I gave an example. So it didn't seem to help, but you think you have found someone else to blame. Is that how your conscience works?

They could be lying, they could be ignoring, they could be acting on bad or insufficient information, they could be un-thoughtful, i.e., not really thinking through their decision thoroughly enough, they could have had bad parents or influences which affected their conscience, they could, over time, have allowed their conscience to become "seared" by misuse, in the words of St. Paul. There could be lots of reasons for bad decisions.

Maybe, but I could be wrong.

So it seems I have to ask the question after all: why do you think your conscience works at distinguishing good and bad, when you have just pointed out "lots of reasons" that leads to other people failing?

You think something exists if you make it up in your mind? A rock on the ground would exist without human minds to perceive it. Mathematics would exist without minds. Right and wrong would not exist, in a purely physical realm, without humans to invent them. That's all I'm saying.

Err, yes. So?
We might disagree whether "mathematics" would exist without minds. Mathematics is, basically, an bunch of abstractions... and abstractions are something that "minds" do.

But your post I quoted was "If there's no God, then there is no wrong."... and now you allow for humans to "invent" it?

Sooo... you agree with me that your quoted statement was obviously wrong?

Ana the Ist · Nov 29, 2017

Chesterton said:
A suspicion is not a delusion. It may be more or less reasonable, but if it's possible, it's not delusion.

As far as I can tell, you're just making up your own criteria for what is and isn't delusion. While it may be fun to imagine that words mean different things...your attempt to redefine delusion makes the word rather meaningless.

"Possibility" has nothing to do with delusion.

The fact that she is thinking, she has not decided absolutely. And even if she has decided absolutely, she could be right.

In the context I was using the word thinking, it's synonymous with belief. As in "Chester thinks god exists". Sorry I didn't make that more clear.

Why do you say that?

I say that because it's true.

Have you decided God is impossible?

Again, possibility doesn't define delusion. For example, a man may suffer from paranoid delusions of his co-workers reporting his every action to the CIA. Is it possible that they are in fact doing so? Sure. In the absence of any evidence though...his belief is a delusion.

Oseas · Nov 29, 2017

Replying post #218 from Freodin,

THE W in his post 163 said:
>>>we're not discussing whether or not something is harmful. we're discussing whether or not something is right or wrong and why. consensus of opinion is not an objective determination of anything.<<<
In the post #170 you interpose with the intention to nulify what THE W said, stating or counter-arguing: >>>"Defining" is also not an objective determination of anything.<<<

And I said: With these words (counter-arguing THE W) are not you also defining anything?
Freodin replied: >>>Err... no, I don't<<<
Well, in truth you were not determining anything, but defining something, yes.
Oh! Then you were only mocking, a scoffer, no?

Freodin: >>>Quite the opposite. When I tell you to do or not do something, and expect to be obeyed, I do that from authority. When I can make you to do or not do something, I do that from power.<<<
I meant Power as a noun, not verb. (I am not discussing grammar. English to me is hard, it is not my native language)
JESUS, the King of the kings and LORD of the lords, He came unto His own (Israel), and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him (Gentiles or Jews), to them gave He Power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name, JESUS Christ.

Freodin said: >>>The Christian God expects to be obeyed, but doesn't enforce his commands. Obviously we are talking about authority here.<<<
JESUS said also unto His disciples: Behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with Power from on high.

Freodin says: >>>Oh, Christianity is more than a moral system. I should have phrased it a little differently: The christian moral system is purely authoritarian. You cannot deny that.<<<

The authority was/is given from the King of the kings and LORD of the lords through the powerful Word of God. Do you understand? I said: The Word of God, the Most High and Almighty God.

Freodin says: >>>And humans are humans. Fallible, in the best case. Deceitful, at worst.
You said it for yourself: "the true Christian". Who is a true Christian? You can never know. Even in the best case, you can only claim that someone is a false Christian, because they do not conform to your image of what a true Christian should be. Even someone who seemingly conforms to your image of a true Christian can fail you tomorrow.<<<
God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn tghe world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
He that believes on Him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were/are evil. Every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
But he that doeth truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Freodin says: >>>You cannot even be sure about yourself... self delusion is a thing with humans.<<<
We are of God: he that knows God hear us; he that is not of God hear not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwels in him, and he in God.
And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he that dwels in love dwels in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.

Freodin says: >>>That's why I said what I said. It is always humans who interprete what they read, hear, think as "God's word". And all of them claim to "speak as he speaks". And neither of them has any "power". Only a claim of authority.<<<
Whomsoever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God? And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Feodin says: >>>Any system that is build on blind obedience is worse than any possible system that is build on understanding.<<<
The Kingdom of God is not a system, but a reign. To the only wise God our Saviour, through JESUS Christ, be Glory and Majesty, Dminion and Power, both now and ever. Amen.

Oseas · Nov 29, 2017

Freodin said:
Err... no, I don't?
Err... no, I don't? Quite the opposite. When I tell you to do or not do something, and expect to be obeyed, I do that from authority. When I can make you to do or not do something, I do that from power.
The Christian God expects to be obeyed, but doesn't enforce his commands. Obviously we are talking about authority here.

Oh, Christianity is more than a moral system. I should have phrased it a little differently: The christian moral system is purely authoritarian. You cannot deny that.

And humans are humans. Fallible, in the best case. Deceitful, at worst.
You said it for yourself: "the true Christian". Who is a true Christian? You can never know. Even in the best case, you can only claim that someone is a false Christian, because they do not conform to your image of what a true Christian should be. Even someone who seemingly conforms to your image of a true Christian can fail you tomorrow.
You cannot even be sure about yourself... self delusion is a thing with humans.

That's why I said what I said. It is always humans who interprete what they read, hear, think as "God's word". And all of them claim to "speak as he speaks". And neither of them has any "power". Only a claim of authority.

Any system that is build on blind obedience is worse than any possible system that is build on understanding.

The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the HARVEST: and in the time of HARVEST I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn,

The time of HARVEST arrived and what was said by the KING of the kings and LORD of the lords will be fulfilled LITERALLY in this beginning of this first century of the seventh and last millennium or last Day, and the Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, and the Millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the Millennium of Vengeance.

The seventh angel sounded: The Kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign for ever and ever.

Oseas · Nov 29, 2017

bhsmte said:
Truth can be demonstrated. Preaching, falls short.

bhsmte says:>>>Truth can be demonstrated.<<<
The Lord is the true God, He is the living God, and an everlasting King: at His wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide His indignation. The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. He has made the earth by His power, He has established the world by His wisdom, and has stretched out the heavens (the Old and the New Testaments) as a curtain, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in.

bhsmte says: >>> Preaching, falls short. <<<
The Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we must render an account.

Oseas · Nov 29, 2017

Ana the Ist said:
You don't know me...and whatever you think "discernment of spirit" is...it simply amounts to magical thinking. You don't have any special powers beyond that of any other person.

I'm sure you believe that...but it's as empty a claim as saying that you can read minds.

Again, I'm sure you believe this...but without any evidence or demonstration...it's a hollow, empty claim.

Cool story bro...but completely off topic.

Ana says: >>>You don't know me...and whatever you think "discernment of spirit" is...it simply amounts to magical thinking. You don't have any special powers beyond that of any other person.<<<

You speak as a Pharisee. The KING of the kings and LORD of the lords, JESUS Christ, He has given Power unto His disciples, the believers. He, JESUS, said: Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. BTW, He said to the Jews Pharisees: Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Ana says: >>>I'm sure you believe that...but it's as empty a claim as saying that you can read minds.<<<
Well, the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we must render an account.

Ana says: >>>Again, I'm sure you believe this...but without any evidence or demonstration...it's a hollow, empty claim.<<<
The kingdom of God comes not with observation: Neither we can say, Lo here! or, lo there! Verily, verily, I say unto you, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Yea, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. BTW, the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Oseas wrote: The kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign for ever and ever.
Ana says: >>> Cool story bro...<<<

Oh! no, you are completely wrong. This voice has sound under the sound of the trumpet of the seventh angel. (Rev.11:15) And it will fulfil LITERALLY in this beginning of the first century of the seventh and last millennium, the Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, the Millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the Millennium of Vengeance.

Ana says : >>>...but completely off topic.<<<
Well, according to the human rule, there is no rule without exception.

Chesterton · Nov 29, 2017

Everybodyknows said:
But you were saying we know by our conscience what is objectively good or bad, apart from the effects, just because they're good or bad. How is that not objective morality?

It's objective only on the most fundamental levels - you should treat people fairly, you shouldn't steal, you shouldn't be a bully, etc. How things like this apply in different situations can differ.

So, what our consciences know to be good and bad is continually changing? How do you explain this?

By what means do we judge in a world where right and wrong are changing?

I'm not really following what point you are trying to make, you seem to have completely changed your tune.

You can get new information about a thing, or you can simply re-examine your conscience and find you've been doing wrong. It's as simple as that. I know I've done it in my life.

Chesterton · Nov 29, 2017

Freodin said:
And you offered your non-answer after I gave an example. So it didn't seem to help, but you think you have found someone else to blame. Is that how your conscience works?

I didn't blame anyone for anything.

So it seems I have to ask the question after all: why do you think your conscience works at distinguishing good and bad, when you have just pointed out "lots of reasons" that leads to other people failing?

I never said I didn't also fail. But you have to want to attend to conscience, and possibly fine-tune it to get better. I suspect a lot of people don't do that.

Err, yes. So?
We might disagree whether "mathematics" would exist without minds. Mathematics is, basically, an bunch of abstractions... and abstractions are something that "minds" do.

But your post I quoted was "If there's no God, then there is no wrong."... and now you allow for humans to "invent" it?

Sooo... you agree with me that your quoted statement was obviously wrong?

No, I said it would be an invention if we lived "in a purely physical realm", but I've already stated that I don't believe we live in a purely physical realm. And most of the best quantum physicists will tell you the same.

bhsmte · Nov 29, 2017

Oseas said:
bhsmte says:>>>Truth can be demonstrated.<<<
The Lord is the true God, He is the living God, and an everlasting King: at His wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide His indignation. The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. He has made the earth by His power, He has established the world by His wisdom, and has stretched out the heavens (the Old and the New Testaments) as a curtain, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in.

bhsmte says: >>> Preaching, falls short. <<<
The Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we must render an account.

Poor demonstration.

That's ok, you can still believe it.

Chesterton · Nov 29, 2017

Ana the Ist said:
As far as I can tell, you're just making up your own criteria for what is and isn't delusion. While it may be fun to imagine that words mean different things...your attempt to redefine delusion makes the word rather meaningless.

"Possibility" has nothing to do with delusion.

In the context I was using the word thinking, it's synonymous with belief. As in "Chester thinks god exists". Sorry I didn't make that more clear.

I say that because it's true.

Again, possibility doesn't define delusion. For example, a man may suffer from paranoid delusions of his co-workers reporting his every action to the CIA. Is it possible that they are in fact doing so? Sure. In the absence of any evidence though...his belief is a delusion.

Well I don't know. I guess consult a dictionary. I think I know a delusion when I hear it. Usually. Maybe.

bhsmte · Nov 29, 2017

Chesterton said:
Well I don't know. I guess consult a dictionary. I think I know a delusion when I hear it. Usually. Maybe.

Here you go:

de·lu·sion
dəˈlo͞oZHən/
noun

an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.
"the delusion of being watched"
synonyms: misapprehension, misconception, misunderstanding, mistake, error, misinterpretation, misconstruction, misbelief; More
- the action of deluding someone or the state of being deluded.
  "what a capacity television has for delusion"
  synonyms: misapprehension, misconception, misunderstanding, mistake, error, misinterpretation, misconstruction, misbelief; More

Why are so many people so bad?

"God"? What do you mean??

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Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding

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"God"? What do you mean??

Devout believer in a theologically different God

Aggressively serene!

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Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding

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