• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Why are so many people so bad?

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by dysert, Nov 21, 2017.

  1. Chesterton

    Chesterton Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding

    +10,073
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    Ana was the one who was concerned about it, not me, but thank you.
     
  2. Oseas

    Oseas Member

    252
    +24
    Brazil
    Christian
    Married

    >>>Poor demonstration<<<
    The crown of the wise is their riches: but the foolishness of fools is folly. Do they not err that devise evil? but mercy and truth shall be to them that do good. A true witness deliveres souls, but a deceitful witness speaks lies. In the fear of the Lord is strong confidence: His children shall have a place of refuge. The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

    >>>
    That's ok, you can still believe it.<<<

    Oh! not only to believe it, but much more to live it too.
     
  3. bhsmte

    bhsmte Newbie

    +9,285
    Atheist
    Single
    US-Others
    Knock yourself out.
     
  4. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

    +535
    Catholic
    Married
    Many don't appear think about it, that there might be a spiritual illness that explains man's tendency towards evil, a tendency that can produce atrocious acts way beyond the ugliness of the most savage animals. They simply assume that such behavior is natural for man, instead of recognizing the anomalous and unnatural nature of it all.
     
  5. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    +1,812
    Atheist
    Fine tune it to what? With what?

    You said to Everybodyknows:
    According to your claims, your conscience is what distinguishes good and bad. So what do you use to distinguish whether your conscience is good or bad?


    But, ok, let's say that what you say is correct. There is still the problem of people wanting to attend to conscience, fine-tuning it to get better, re-examining it... and comming to different conclusions as other people who did the same. Feel free to use to issue of homosexuality as an example, if you need to.

    How is that possible?

    Perhaps you should listen to your conscience, apply a little fine-tuning to your reason and reconsider what you said:
    So even in a purely physical realm, right and wrong could exist if humans invented it. Which they can and which they did.
    So regardless of what you believe about "purely physical" or not, right and wrong would exist.
    The statement that I quoted some posts earlier is obviously wrong
     
  6. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    +1,812
    Atheist
    Your post - all your recent posts - only support my point. You have no reason to offer, no argument for this discussion. You cannot even understand the questions we raise.

    All you have to offer is an appeal to authority and threats of vengeance. This is not morality. This is brute force... and and empty threat.
     
  7. quatona

    quatona "God"? What do you mean??

    +3,979
    Seeker
    Look, Chesterton, being consistent doesn´t mean that my statements have to be consistent with your paradigms, premises and hypotheses. They have to be consistent with mine.

    "Delusional" is a term that belongs in the frame of reference " accurate vs. inaccurate". Outside that frame I have no idea what it´s even supposed to signify.

    Since the very point of our discussion is the question if "meaning" is a matter of "accurate vs. inaccurate", and since my position is "It isn´t (it´s a matter of creativity)", I would be inconsistent if I would operate with the term "delusional" in this context.

    I never expected "meaning" to be anything objective. So when you want to check my consistency, you would have to keep that in mind.
     
  8. Everybodyknows

    Everybodyknows The good guys lost

    796
    +758
    Australia
    Christian
    Married
    How strange that these qualities are foundational to a functional society. It would almost seem like if we didn't subscribe to these things we could not share in the benefits of cooperative relationships. I suppose there is objective bad in the same way as stabbing a knife into your own eye is objectively bad. Because the consequences are bad not because some spiritual realm has defined self stabbing as bad.

    Like I've already said, if your conscience can change in regard to what you find good or bad then the conscience cannot be an objective measure. We need some better objective measure, any suggestions?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  9. Oseas

    Oseas Member

    252
    +24
    Brazil
    Christian
    Married
    >>>Knock yourself out. <<<

    Against facts there are no arguments. Well, "The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is". We can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth (2Cor.13:v.8). The KING of the kings and LORD of the lords, JESUS Christ, said to the Jews which believed on Him: If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed, and ye shall know the truth, and the truth will make you free. (John 8:31-32) About the Truth, JESUS left very very clear saying: I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:v.6) And He said more: Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (John 16:v.13-15).
    Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Mat.24:v.35)
     
  10. bhsmte

    bhsmte Newbie

    +9,285
    Atheist
    Single
    US-Others
    More preaching, cool.
     
  11. Oseas

    Oseas Member

    252
    +24
    Brazil
    Christian
    Married
    Freodin said: >>>Your post - all your recent posts - only support my point. You have no reason to offer, no argument for this discussion. You cannot even understand the questions we raise.<<<

    The point is: Why are so many people so bad? What is your group in the society? Would be of the group of the idolaters, or fornicators, or drunkards, adulterers, effeminates, pedophiles, rapists, wizards, false Christians, spiritualists, voodoos, atheists, among countless devilish religions, blasphemers, unholy, covetous, prouds, boasters, unthankful, betrayers, fierce, thieves, homicides, killers, hipocrites, corrupts, abominables, disguiseds, liars, wicked, and so on. WHAT IS YOUR GROUP IN WITH THIS KIND OF SOCIETY IN WHOLE EARTH? The Earth was cursed since the beginning because of man, the consequences are manifested in the bad character of the disobedient men, those who do not obey God. .


    Freodin said: >>>All you have to offer is an appeal to authority and threats of vengeance. This is not morality. This is brute force... and and empty threat.<<<

    Look, even the devils, who are constituted and endowed with power or authority to judge their fellows considered evildoers, as listed above, which are punished with severe punishments and even condemned to death, how much more the Most High and Almighty God in judging them all, and condemn and punish them according to the works of each one, and cast them all into the eternal fire of hell.

    But God, ignoring the times of ignorance,
    announced expressly to all men in everywhere that they should repent of their evil deeds, for God had appointed a Day on which He would judge the WORLD in righteousness by the man which he destined, and of this He gave assurance to all, raising him from the dead.

    Woe to those who are and will be at the left hand of the King of the kings and Lord of the lords, JESUS Christ, because now, in this Judgment, at the Judgment Seat of Christ, they will be cursed by Him on this Day of Judgment, the seventh and last Day, previously determined and announced expressly. This Day of Judgment has already arrived, so henceforth there will only be punishments and more punishments because the WORLD is already doomed.

    The nations will be angry, because the WRATH OF GOD has come, and the time of the dead, that they be judged, and that He gives reward unto His servants the prophets and the saints. And unto those who fear His name, small and great, and should DESTROY those who destroy the earth, as is written in Rev.11:18

    What is written in this message of number 272, in this site called Christianforum. on this day of Friday, December 01, 2017, yea, what is written in this message will fulfil LITERALLY, day after day, in the days that follow
     
  12. Chesterton

    Chesterton Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding

    +10,073
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    To what is true and good.
    Desires can trump conscience if you let them. The world, the flesh and the devil can interfere.
    They would exist the same way as other inventions such as skyscrapers exist, but like skyscrapers, they would neither be right nor wrong, true nor false, only more or less useful.
     
  13. Chesterton

    Chesterton Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding

    +10,073
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    If "meaning" isn't actual meaning external to yourself, it's not meaning. But if you agree that you're making stuff up which can't possibly be true or false, then I'm fine with that; you have no problem with consistency.
     
  14. Chesterton

    Chesterton Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding

    +10,073
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    I wouldn't expect bad fruit from a good tree. If there's truly a proper "way" to be in this life, I wouldn't expect it to result in anarchy, so what you said is not a good point.
    No, there's nothing better. Utility is certainly not better because, we know who were very utilitarian in their own views: Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc.
     
  15. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    +1,812
    Atheist
    I think we have been there already, but I still have to ask: how do you find out what is "true and good" to fine-tune the instrument you use to find out what is "true and good"?

    And again, you chose not to answer my question: I really start to wonder why that is.

    I didn't ask about desire. I asked about a decision of conscience. A decision based on what you said is made on "attuning to conscience, fine-tuning it to get better, re-examinining it".

    So, even when you did all that... desire, world, flesh and devils can still render it invalid?
    What use is your conscience then?

    What, in your view, does it mean to be "right or wrong", "true or false"?
     
  16. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    +1,812
    Atheist
    They weren't. It might surprise you, because in the way you think, it seems that two of your "bads" must be connected.

    But if you know anything about Hitler, Stalin or Mao, you would recognize that they were dogmatists. They didn't care about "utility" if it contradicted their dogma.
     
  17. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    +1,812
    Atheist
    Say, do you - like the prophets of old - allow for some further millenia to pass and still count as "in the days that follow", or can we already gather stones to execute you as a false prophet if what you say doesn't happen in a humanly reasonable estimation of "soon"?
     
  18. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    +1,812
    Atheist
    Please explain the concept of "meaning" with only making references to something "external to oneself".

    And, as asked before, please explain the concept of "true or false" in your own terms.
     
  19. Everybodyknows

    Everybodyknows The good guys lost

    796
    +758
    Australia
    Christian
    Married
    Sorry, I don't understand. Can you explain what you mean?

    How were they utilitarian? They didn't approach morality at all in terms of consequences. The thing that these three had in common was that they were driven by ideology, an nothing was considered immoral as long as it was to the end of achieving that ideology.
     
  20. Chesterton

    Chesterton Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding

    +10,073
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    It's not a scientific "instrument". It's more art than science.
    We have wills. Desire enters into it.
    It means to be in accord with the "way" or the "tao" of what we are intended to be.
    You're wrong. They were completely utilitarian, in defiance of right and wrong.
     
Loading...