And also with youDear Dee: Thank you for a calibre post. I trust your sojourn on C.F. is an enhancing experience for you. May His love which is in the exceedingly abundant dimension be yours as you walk before Him
From Him, through Him, for Him
I too resonate with this and empathize with you in this. I am not meaning this as a critique or chastisement. I mean that our war is not against flesh and blood but against principalities of darkness and for us all to be careful when we use labels even if we are labeling others as they label their selves then attaching blame. There are many gentle God loving people who call/called themselves Catholic, and while we should not be divided by titles or labels other than by the label of Jesus, we must speak against that which is wrong by standing for what is right. Rather than point out what groups have what doctrines and are wrong, just speak the truth and let God convict whom He will. We are not fighting groups or labels but are sent to Speak/Live the truth. Catholics and the Catholic church are not the enemy the spirits of evil are. Be gentle and Love first and win over whoever will come by Truth and love. Tolerate no evil on an individual basis or if a false doctrine is preached speak the truth about it and those who practice it; a whole groups usually don't all support every idea. All things will be revealed to those who want to see, and that is not by us fighting but by God giving grace and revelation in Love.I'm not blaming Catholic members of the flock, but the Catholic institution (in this case, atlhough centuries ago), or any organized 'Christian' religion that spreads false teachings.
It makes me angry when i see people being deceived.
I see truths and errors in every group, however, there are truly those who believe these truths or errors are the entire way to see them, sincerely. Speak to the people who hold these as you are led, just try to do it in love and truth rather than as in opposition. I would rather be Pro-life than Against those who are not.I too resonate with this and empathize with you in this. I am not meaning this as a critique or chastisement. I mean that our war is not against flesh and blood but against principalities of darkness and for us all to be careful when we use labels even if we are labeling others as they label their selves then attaching blame. There are many gentle God loving people who call/called themselves Catholic, and while we should not be divided by titles or labels other than by the label of Jesus, we must speak against that which is wrong by standing for what is right. Rather than point out what groups have what doctrines and are wrong, just speak the truth and let God convict whom He will. We are not fighting groups or labels but are sent to Speak/Live the truth. Catholics and the Catholic church are not the enemy the spirits of evil are. Be gentle and Love first and win over whoever will come by Truth and love. Tolerate no evil on an individual basis. All things will be revealed to those who want to see, and that is not by us fighting but by God giving grace and revelation in Love.
That is another tactic of UR-ites misrepresentation. Making it appear that I said something I did not say. Guess I'll have to take you off my radar again. I don't recall ever referring to Jukes writings as "scribblings." I did find a biography of Jukes. More than 8 pages long. Link below.FineLinen said:[post #1153] Shep: with your vast knowledge of the Jewish E.. it is beyond my old life to grasp you do not know the calibre of Andrew Jukes. In an attempt to keep you informed I will present some of his work.
There are many errors and false teachings in Denominations and divisions ( as Paul mentioned in 1 Corinthians 1) but consider Mother Teresa who overcame by not opposing them but embracing them in more Love while standing on the Rock. When they were wrong she did not divide or oppose but stood firm in faith and action. To speak out against All Catholicism or the entire Pentecostal religion or entire Baptist religion and all their doctrine, is being an"Opposer'; Rather Be 'For' Unity and non labels and speak the complete truths of doctrine to all, about these matters- not just a specific group.... it helps.I'm not blaming Catholic members of the flock, but the Catholic institution (in this case, atlhough centuries ago), or any organized 'Christian' religion that spreads false teachings.
It makes me angry when i see people being deceived.
This is something that I am still looking into but of course I'm not spending too much time on these little details because there are more important concepts in the bible to learn about.
Dear DM: My friend there are a number of little details that are escaping your grasp. I would like to introduce you to two lovely words in the koine. Those two words= ta panta. Not panta standing alone, but ta preceding it.
From Him the all comes, thru Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends...
A lot of people are just scared of the truth. The devil works in very sneaky ways. Because they have been so brainwashed by their pastors and worldly teachings their ultimate defense is rejecting the truth and labeling those who preach the truth as false teachers. That is all the devil's doing. It is too comfortable for them so they don't dig deeper, even though all of us Christians SHOULD be digging deep into scripture during these end times when mass deception is occurring News flash guys, not every popular teaching is biblical and true. I can tell you this, I do not have all the answers. I do not even have most of the answers. But I DEFINITELY know God confirmed this revelation to me of the truth of death being the punishment, and I looked at scripture to back it up to make sure it was God telling me that. And it turns out it was and it made perfect sense. At any rate, this is NOT a salvation issue by any means. I just think it is more comforting knowing the truth rather than believing a lie that was set up by the early catholic church for the very purpose to keep people out of the faith. I always knew there was something extremely funky about the doctrine of eternal torture chamber, people make fun of Christianity for that very reason and before I got saved even I knew it was a ridiculous concept. It just makes no sense at all and I think all of you know it isn't true but are scared to accept to it. I mean if you truly believe without a doubt that the majority of God's creation (remember the path to life is a narrow way and few will find it meaning the majority of the population will perish in hell) will be in torment for ETERNITY then you must have some psychological problem.... Even believing one evil person will suffer that fate is hard, but to think the majority of his creation (remember the path to life is narrow and few will find it) will suffer for eternity is downright impossible for any sane human being.
The same word "aionion" is translated "everlasting" and "eternal." The punishment lasts as long as the life. Jesus is quoted as saying the word "death" 17 times. When Jesus meant "death" He said "death." Here is what one early church father said about "punishment."Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
The word translated "eternal" is "aionion." This verse shows beyond any doubt that "aionion" means, eternal, everlasting, unending etc. not "age during" or some nonsense like that. "shall never perish" and "neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" [Jesus], sounds eternal to me.OHC said:John 10:28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Another verse which shows beyond any doubt that "aionion" means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. not "age during" or some nonsense like that. "immortal" sounds "eternal" to me.OHC said:Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Please show me from the bible where the lost receive immortality. (eternal life)
The word translated "eternal" in this verse is the adjective "aionion" it only modifies one word in this verse, "fire." The verse does not say "eternal suffering" or "eternal vengeance." It only says "eternal fire." The fire existed in heaven before God sent it down out of heaven. The verse does not say the fire was extinguished. The other alternative is that God took it back to heaven.OHC said:Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Is Sodom and Gomorrha still burning today? Answer NO
What is the definition of the Greek word translated "perish?" It occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 79%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment.OHC said:Def per·ish/ˈperiSH/ verbsuffer complete ruin or destruction
<FL>Dear Camper: Punish kolazo primarily denotes "to curtail, prune, dock" (from kolos, "docked"); then, "to check, restrain, punish;"FineLinen said:begin
Here are two lexical fallacies you might want to familiarize yourself with.
Dear Camper: "We are all lost till God finds us" is precisely what is transpiring when every knee bows & every tongue confesses, in every dimension of the heavens, the earth & the underworld >>>"You are Lord".Can you explain this statement please.
Dear Camper: "We are all lost till God finds us" is precisely what is transpiring when every knee bows & every tongue confesses, in every dimension of the heavens, the earth & the underworld >>>"You are Lord".
Please note: this worship is not by perfunctory genuflections and is not "at" the Name of Jesus, but "IN/EN" the Name of all names.
Do you know what being in the Name means? That is precisely what being lost & found entails!
Yes they certainly do as if constantly repeating something makes it so.FineLinen said:We Universalists often comment re Matthew 25:46 that kolasis refers to corrective punishment or chastening.
Ah yes the ubiquitous copy/paste from UR high priestess Ramelli. In a later comment you say "Ramelli and company indulge in a lot of verbal sleight of hand." That is very true, take the comment above. Another UR poster quoted that several times so I was forced to purchase the writing where this quote supposedly occurs, Origen's commentary on the gospel of John. Limited reviews of this book can be viewed at this link.FL said:To give an idea of the basis for that, the following is from a review of the Ilaria Ramelli tome:
“…in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.”
I can't find a scholar named "some translate." I did not find any copies which read "but a period of a thousand years only."FL said:There is also the following alleged quote, not mentioned by Ramelli above, to be considered:
“St. Justin Martyr repeatedly used the word aionios as in the Apol. (p. 57), aionion kolasin …all ouchi chiliontaetê periodon, “eonian chastening …but a period, not a thousand years.” Or, as some translate the last clause: “but a period of a thousand years only.” He limits the eonian chastening to a period of a thousand years, rather than to endlessness.”
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