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What you are saying is that they will end up in hell until they change their minds and accept God---thst is what you and CofA said, right?
By hell you are referring to the 2nd DEATH correct?
When God judges man by the law it produces a cross that is why the law is a ministration of DEATH and our schoolmaster that leads to CHRIST.
While our old man is being destroyed we weep and wail and gnash our teeth. It is not pleasant but the destruction of the old man must occur for CHRIST to come to the fore.
Thus Paul said it is no longer I that live but CHRIST that liveth in me, yet I live.
I can't speak for clement MM, but I do know that I have a different understanding in many areas from my brothers and sister who believe as I do in the salvation of all. However what we all agree on is the final outcome, Jesus Christ IS the saviour of ALL MEN.
Al that repent!! Nothing saves you out of the 2nd death. You are entitled to your believes.
Wrong---I am teaching what Jesus taught---
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
You believe that His justice makes Him a monster---if you are right--I will be saved anyway---if you are wrong your view of God as being a monster for being just puts you in the position of standing with the lost against Him.
So---since you think that God would be totally wrong and barbaric and worse than Hitler for annihilating anyone---
Not to worry, you won't have to worry about living with such a monster--for if He truly indeed does have a hell in which all unrepentant sinners, and anyone who
does not want to be with Him, will cease to exist ---you will not be living with Him. So either way, you will get what you want.
God does what He has to for there are those that will not repent--that is it. He will not force anyone and you can not force love--by it's very nature, love requires freedom of choice---if their choice is to be annihilated rather than to live with God----that is what will happen. With all the discussion on this subject, and I have had them before with you---you have never been able to state a single verse that states there is a 2nd chance after hell---doesn't exist. You take verses out of context and you make assumptions and you add your philosophy to others. Like you did with the very words of Jesus. You reject the verses that you don't agree with and change others. There is absolutely no reason for me to agree with you theory. And what if you are wrong---what will you think of God? All you are basically saying is God is going to torture people until they say they to live by His rules. That is not love. Force and love can not reign together. No different than one these men who terrorize their women into being submissive to them. Not going to keep going over the same stuff we hashed over before.
The concept that God is so loving that he will not annihilate anyone and so will send many to hell until they agree with Him is what a lot of men consider to be love.
They will beat their significant other black and blue and then they claim to love them. Your concept paints a picture of a God that will torment and torture for who knows how long until they finally say "Yes! I love you!""
Shades of the Spanish Inquisition---torture them until they recant and agree to their terms. That y0u call that love is not just ludicrous, but downright obscene.
That anyone would rather die, permanently---cease to exist--the to be with God, you may find beyond comprehension ---but Satan would rather do so and His followers also.
The thought of living forever with God is sheer torture to them--they love sin.
Sin can not live in the presence of a holy and pure God.
And God does not force anyone to do His will.
If we choose to be without the protection of Jesus---there is nothing that can protect anyone from the fire light that is God.
It is not love to torture anyone into submission.
Love means allowing to choose death over life with Him of their own free will.
It is not love for anyone to force a another to stay with them out of fear of pain.
God spends our entire life calling us into His arms through Jesus---here is no 2nd chance. Believe what you want.
This is the typical view of love. Beat them into submission.
I have no doubt that if you have children, the home will be fine and happy as long as everyone does what you want. Beating a child until he surrenders his will for fear of pain is what many parents consider to be loving parents. There are parents in jail right now for that.
That one couple in the news not too long ago--chained up their kids for years --but they still do not think they did anything wrong---they were doing what was best for them.
Or the pain of letting the one you love to do as they wish.
If a wife or husband wants to leave them---beat them until they stay -- and then they will be happy.
God is willing to suffer the pain of letting a child go their won way and end up ceasing to exist rather than to beat them into a submission that leaves them resentful and full of anger and hatred.
He will miss them forever--the pain will be His--not theirs. Self-centered people can not comprehend that kind of love.
Slave owners felt that the blacks were better off as slaves, where they had all their needs taken care of and would whip them skinless for running away until they remained --nice and happy to be there. They felt slaves were ungrateful for their care. That is the kind of God you people want--the plantation owner with a whip to keep His slaves happy.
God is love---self sacrificing love. It is not an attribute--it is what He is. He is not selfish and self centered.
He offers eternal life--a life without tears, sorrow, pain, filled with beauty. Anyone can have it, that is why He died for us to be able to have it. He is not selfish enough to force this life on anyone.
They must want to be there and be there with Him, not out of fear of being tortured, but out of love for Him.
Those who love, will be there---those who do not, simply can not tolerate His presence and can not live in it.
I pray you will one day learn what true, unselfish love really means.
God's love is demonstrated in Christ's incarnation, life, sufferings & death. That is His sacrificial love for the salvation of all. Then there is His tough love, as in rebukes, chastisement, punishment, wrath, judgement, imprisonment, anger, etc, also always for the good of created beings.
So what are you suggesting? God should be put in jail for removing His protection from Job & allowing Satan to destroy Job's health? Or for fire bombing Sodom? Or sending a flood to drown to world, little children included? Or allowing countless torments & tortures every second of every day of every year?
So do you think God is evil for chaining evil spirits unto the day of judgement (Jude 1:6). Or casting beings into the lake of fire where they'll be tormented "to/into the eons of the eons"? Or sending the wicked to Hades where they're being tormented?
No one in their right mind wishes to be annihilated forever. The sane wish to live forever in endless blessedness. All of creation, even insects, fight for survival & not to die.
You're comparing this with God casting the wicked into Hades & the lake of fire? Or are you suggesting that what God allows, & how He deals with, the church, His bride, is wrong, e.g.:
Heb.12:4 Not yet have you resisted unto blood, struggling against sin, 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as to sons: “My son, do not regard lightly the Lord’s discipline,nor faint being reproved by Him. 6 For the Lord disciplines whom He loves, and He scourges every son whom He receives.a 7 If you endure discipline, God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which they have all become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore indeed, we have had fathers of our flesh, correctors, and we respected them; and shall we not much more be in subjection to the Father of spirits and shall live? 10 For truly they were disciplining us for a few days, according to that seeming good to them; but He for our benefitting, in order to share His holiness. 11 And all discipline indeed for those being present, does not seem to be of joy, but of grief; but afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those having been trained by it.
Where does Scripture say God will "beat them into a submission"? Would that change their hearts? People's own sins will torment them in "hell". Like they do in this life.
Love Omnipotent has no need to be forever in pain or miss anyone forever. He is quite capable of bringing all to salvation & never giving up on anyone. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk. Neither does the blood of Jesus poured out for all. Nor is the Almighty too weak to save, as if the will & mind of man could overpower & outwit the All Knowing One for all eternity. Saving all into endless bliss is certainly infinitely more loving than annihilating them out of existence forever like your endless Hitler-like gas chamber SDA god. Yet you falsely accuse the Universalist God of the Holy Scriptures of being unloving.
Who ever said that God's chastisements, wrath, punishments, etc, will make anyone happy? That would make no sense. But you do seem to have a problem with believing the Scriptures i posted regarding such things. Are all SDA's of the same view as yours? I suggest you check with your leaders to see if they would approve of what you've been posting here.
Have you never read the OT with the lists of curses & blessings? Blessings to those who obey & curses to those who rebel? Or the punishments God brought on Israel time and time again to bring them to repentance & back to Him? My previous post to you was full of Scriptures showing the things God brought on people for their own good, to correct their souls. Are you rejecting Scripture in favor of your own human opinions?
Correct.
Why would it be selfish to force something good on someone, as opposed to annihilating them forever out of existence like an endless Hitler like gas chamber? Not that Love Omnipotent needs to force salvation on anyone, since it is impossible anyone would reject Him for eternity. BTW, does your SDA god force the saved to remain in heaven forever & not give them a free will choice to rebel like the angels in heaven did? Does he force & cause those who reject him to be annihilated against their will?
The impression i've gotten from some JW annihilationists is they are motivated by fear of being annihilated forever. Ideally, when people are perfected in love, fear of God's judgement (e.g. hell) is cast out (1 John 4):
God is love, and the one abiding in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 In this, love has been perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment that, just as He is, also are we in this world.
18There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment; and the one fearing has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.
Please note also that perfect love is referred to in both verses 17 & 18.
If you are still fearing "hell", you have not been "perfected in love" (1 Jn.4:17-19).
V.19 We love because He first loved us. Not because of a make-believe children's bed time horror fantasy about being tortured in fire for eternity.
Are those who profess Christ merely out of fear, i.e. for "fire insurance", even saved?
Do they serve the Scriptural God Who is love, or a false god of fear? Such as Ra, Allah, & Molech, who are inventions of Satan?
The Biblical kind of fear of God that a Christian should have is not a tormenting, paralyzing, destructive fear, but a reverential awe & respect:
"Definition: (a) fear, terror, alarm, (b) the object or cause of fear, (c) reverence, respect." Strong's Greek: 5401. φόβος (phobos) -- panic flight, fear, the causing of fear, terror
Misbehaving children may find it difficult to be in the presence of their parents. That doesn't lead good parents to throw them out into a dumpster to rot forever.
I pray you will one day accept the Love Omnipotent of the Scriptures instead of the SDA & JW horror flick Hitler god fantasy of him.
---
George MacDonald The Consuming Fire
Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: The Consuming Fire
Sorry--but I am not into repeating over and over the same things with the same people! I will not go on over this issue with you as I have said all there is to say and you have said all there is to say from your perspective. I do not, will never see it your way. God wants everyone to be saved-that doesn't mean He makes anyone to choose Him, If they don't want Him, then He can not help them. He is a devouring fire to those without His protection, we will live in His fire because His blood protects us, with that, we can not live in that fire--sin can not live in His presence.
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
It is not the wicked that live in an everlasting fire---it is the saved. As Shadrach, Meshack and Abednego did---as the burning bush with Moses we an live in His presence--sin can not. Sin is as a drop of water on the sun. Not that the sun wants to kill it--that is just what happens without the blood of Jesus.
I will not keep saying this, so you may have the last word.
Nothing says that in hell only the boy [body] dies but the soul keeps on living---When they die in hell---that is the 2nd death from which there is no coming back to life.
Jesus also told the dying thief, “Today you shall be with me in Paradise (Luke 23:43).”
Jesus tells Martha, “Whoever lives and believes in me shall never die (John 11:26).”
Moses and Elijah return to converse with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Mark 9:1-9).
The righteous dead are alive in heaven and able to speak in Rev. 6:10.
Paul implies that at death he will immediately be enjoying Christ’s presence: “I am hard pressed between the 2 (choices): my desire is to depart and be with Christ;
for that is far better.; for to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you (Philippians 1:23-24).”
...The NDEs and ADCs and the accompanying videos are far more impressive evidence
for immediate postmortem survival...
(1) Unbelievers:
In hell are conscious and in torment (Luke 16:23);
Are “under punishment [after death] until the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:9);
(2) Believers:
Are immediately in Paradise at death (Luke 23:43);
Long for a heavenly dwelling (2 Cor. 5:2);
Are away from the body [at death] and are at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8);
Deaths are gain (Phil. 1:21) and they depart at death to “be with Christ” (Phil. 1:23);
Who are martyred souls “cried out with a loud voice, ‘O Sovereign Lord . . .” (Rev. 6:9-11). They were conscious after death so that they could speak to the Lord.
...Dr. Morey (2006) provides these verses as “the primary NT texts that refute soul sleep”: Matt. 22:23-33; Lk. 16:19-31; Lk. 23:43; Acts 7:59; 2 Cor. 5:1-10; Phil 1:21-25; Heb. 12:18-24.
I derive my view from these three passages.
In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
.....The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
.....Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
In the New Testament Jesus speaking, a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.
Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Do you believe in Soul Sleep?What would be the point of “soul sleep”. What purpose?
Once a soul has been created, this unique spirit… what would be the purpose of God taking the batteries out of us, so to speak, and essentially turning us off for a period of time?
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-state-of-the-dead.8074136/page-2#post-72972191There has to be something that IS YOU that survives your death otherwise you can not be brought back to life, only a copy or clone of you could.
Lets say that when you die all that remains of you is a perfect memory of you in Gods head or mind. His information about you will be flawless but its still not you, its information about you.
God can use this information to re-create or 'resurrect' another you (ie a perfect copy) but it won't be you, it will just be a copy. As the information that God has is about you
and not you then he could use this information to resurrect (or re-create) you multiple times, there could be a hundred you's running around in heaven, each a copy of the original (with a new body of course), but none of them actually the you that lived and died on earth and made the choice for God.
Its like saying, will God and Jesus be happy to surround themselves in heaven with a copy of everyone who was saved or will they want it to be the actual people who lived, toiled, suffered and died and chose Jesus. If its the latter then something that is you must survive your death, if its the former, then all that matters is that the information about you survives in some storage medium until required.
We have not discussed body and soul before, that I remember---so --there is no such thing as the soul apart from the body. there are no bodiless souls up in heaven--our souls and our bodies are together.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
* * * *
Adam and Eve were not immortal--
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
* * * *
Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
* * * *
The concept of the immortal soul is of Greek origin.
Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
* * * *
Those that die the first death are not dead--they are sleeping---
Jesus is the life, He is the resurrection--when He speaks we awake. The saved will be resurrected at His coming--the wicked after the 1000 years. Nothing says that in hell only the boy dies but the soul keeps on living---When they die in hell---that is the 2nd death from which there is no coming back to life. The breath of life goes back to God and stays there. All sin is done away with because all sinners will be gone.
There are about 12 people resurrected in the bible---including Lazarus---not a single one had one single thing to say about having been in heaven. If Lazarus had been in heaven , I doubt he would have been very happy about coming back here--if he had been in hell Jesus would not have left Him there suffering all that time. Either way--he would have been talking about it.
I've heard all the arguments on this, I already know what your arguments will be---this is another area where we wll not agree.
Every knee will bow--from Satan on down--there will be no other choice--they know their end, they know they haven failed, are wrong, they have to acknowledge now that Jesus is God and that He is just for their end. They acknowledge the justice of God--their hearts have not changed--At some point, When Jesus brings down the New Jerusalem , they encompass it and try to take it by force--that is their end--
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
That is their hell -- and death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. The lake of fire is for Satan and his angels and the false prophet--the rest of the wicked were devoured with the fire from heaven.
I have to go now.
<CL>Post #830 (in purple text above) says hell is of Greek origin....begin
Let me clarify something you claimed to clarify. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, the translators of the 225 bc LXX knew what they were doing when they translated "sheol" and "gehinnom" as "hades." While the Egyptians may or may not have had some concept of "hell" and the Greeks may or may not have borrowed some of those ideas. I do not consider a secular encyclopedia a credible source for interpreting scripture. Here for your consideration three irrefutable Jewish sources which document a belief in some concept of "hell" before, during and after the time of Jesus.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud,
I'll tell you where scripture says all of this just as soon as you show me the scriptures which says "even if they do not repent in this life all the unrighteous, unrepentant will be saved after death" or words to that effect. And I don't mean quote verses which say "savior of the world."
You might want to actually read my post especially the Talmud which was compiled after the time of Jesus but quotes writings before the time of Jesus.
The book of Enoch and Judith and others not in the Christian canon are considered scripture by the Jews.
Your opinion about worms and unquenched fire is irrelevant. Jesus talked about them and the Jewish sources I quoted talked about them
Still trying to dictate which words Jesus and others should or should not have used to satisfy you.
What Jesus did say virtually mirrored the words that the Jews.
But here is what Jesus Himself says,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these [on the left] shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.
.....Unlike the UR crowd I consider Jesus to be the standard not Paul or John or other NT writers. I interpret the writings of Paul et al. to agree with what Jesus said. On the other hand UR-ites reinterpret the words of Jesus so that they do not mean what they literally say in order to make them agree with the UR interpretation of Paul et al.
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
??? said:Let us look at this verse again:
"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).
Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.
Let me clarify something you claimed to clarify. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, the translators of the 225 bc LXX knew what they were doing when they translated "sheol" and "gehinnom" as "hades." While the Egyptians may or may not have had some concept of "hell" and the Greeks may or may not have borrowed some of those ideas. I do not consider a secular encyclopedia a credible source for interpreting scripture. Here for your consideration three irrefutable Jewish sources which document a belief in some concept of "hell" before, during and after the time of Jesus.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.…..
Although I addressed this once before you continue to holler your unsupported opinion. Gen 6:3a says nothing about "mortal." But "mortal" seems to support your assumptions and presuppositions so you continue to holler that.Apples and oranges, sir. Your twin arguments do not disprove the Biblical position that man is mortal (Genesis 6:3a) and only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16) .
None of this irrelevant hollering proves that the Jews or Christians copied any Egyptian or Greek myths. Your opinion about my arguments are equally irrelevant. Anybody can say "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!"CL said:Your post #833 rejects secular references to secular myth - that of Egyptian origins of the idea of an indestructible human spirit. The myth is well documented by every archeological and academic source known. Your objection is noted, but unfounded and argumentative at best.
I have found it useful to actually read a post before trying to reply. I did not quote the mishnah to interpret the Bible.CL said:Neither are complicated references to the Mishnah (*) suitable for interpreting the Holy Bible. If secular records are to be excluded, then so to must references to the Mishnah. Neither are Biblical. Neither are canonical. Both are excluded. You cannot reject one and accept another so as to interpret scripture as you please.
The biggest self contradictions I have seen lately. You reject the sources I quoted, i.e. the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud and make some vague reference to "secular" and "popular myths" While you you keep hollering about Egyptian and Greek myths and have provided no, zero, none evidence to support your claimsCL said:I do agree that secular sources are not sufficient to interpret the Bible. This being agreed upon it should be obvious that these secular sources do serve to explain the origins and development of secular myths popular today. Unfortunately many of these popular myths have been adopted by the church, thus diluting and corrupting the general ideology of the religion.
The Bible is self-interpreting. Disagreements and obfuscation arise when external myth hypotheticals and popular fiction are employed to interpret scripture..
Meaningless references to "external myth hypotheticals and popular fiction are employed to interpret scripture." No, zero, none evidence.CL said:The Bible is self-interpreting. Disagreements and obfuscation arise when external myth hypotheticals and popular fiction are employed to interpret scripture.
Nonsense, I don't support your contention. I suppressed nothing, I'm still waiting for you to provide some credible, verifiable, historical evidence for any of your claims. Quoting from anonymous websites does not constitute such evidence.CL said:How strange then that you support my contention by admitting the translator(s) of original Hebrew and Greek texts deliberately misTranslated the original scripture. [Highlighted in green in the quoted portion above.]
There is no 'absence of evidence' as you claim - only your suppression of it.
If this is what you believe you'd better read the rules, I think you are in the wrong forum.CL said:I believe the point I was trying to make in the first place is that the post modern church now wallows in myth, tabloid fiction and political correctness so deeply that the Christian belief system has been almost totally debauched.
More of the same empty hollering.CL said:Most Christians have sunk into a kind of spiritual quicksand composed of slogans and buzz words.
Hell is one of those words.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Part of the reference to Talmud in the Jewish Encyclopedia. Thus rendering your opinion irrelevant.CL said:(*) The Mishnah is a collection of Jewish traditions originally known as the 'oral Torah'. According to the gospels, Jesus argued against many of these traditions.
By hell you are referring to the 2nd DEATH correct?
When God judges man by the law it produces a cross that is why the law is a ministration of DEATH and our schoolmaster that leads to CHRIST.
While our old man is being destroyed we weep and wail and gnash our teeth. It is not pleasant but the destruction of the old man must occur for CHRIST to come to the fore.
Thus Paul said it is no longer I that live but CHRIST that liveth in me, yet I live.
I can't speak for clement MM, but I do know that I have a different understanding in many areas from my brothers and sister who believe as I do in the salvation of all. However what we all agree on is the final outcome, Jesus Christ IS the saviour of ALL MEN.
All irrelevant! Do you not realize how absurd and ridiculous this entire same old, same old argument is?I posted:
Where does any OT Scripture say "hell shall pass away"? Where does any OT Scripture say "All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them"? Where does any OT Scripture say "heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews"? Those are all quotes by anti-Christian Jews from your post. Where does any OT Scripture support such opinions from anti-Christian Jewish sources?
Der Alter replied:
The answer to that is another topic (already addressed elsewhere) than your post with quotes from anti-Christian Jews. You also posted some Scripture verses & then concluded Jesus' "teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell". You reach this conclusion because some of Jesus' words bear some similarity to what the Jewish quotes say, even though they are still quite different and don't arrive at the same conclusion of "eternal hell" which Jesus rejected. If Jesus meant to affirm a belief in "eternal hell" in an anti-Christian Jewish writing, why didn't He use the exact words? Or did He mean to reject their teaching by rejecting the language they used which affirms "eternal hell"?
Yet you have provided no evidence that the particular Jews Jesus was speaking to in any specific Scripture context held to such a belief at the time Christ spoke to them c. 30 AD. In fact you stated that there were a variety of beliefs among the Jews about the afterlife. So which of the various beliefs was Jesus supposedly affirming or rejecting? How would you know unless you compare some of the other Jewish views? Did they also use some phrases that were similar to Jesus' statements? If so, then how do you know which of the various Jewish views Jesus was rejecting or affirming?
I did read it. Your post didn't provide any evidence that your quotes from anti-Christian Jews were believed by any Jews at the time of Jesus (c. 30 AD). Yet you alleged they were believed by some Jews from "before and during the time of Jesus".
Of all your quotes from anti-Christian Jews, only one of them speaks of an eternity of pain, assuming it is even correctly translated. None of the others refer to "eternal hell". So you are basing your argument on a single Jewish quote. And is this quote merely an interpretation of, or quote, from an apocryphal Jewish writing, Judith, rejected by the Jews from their canon? Was it written at the time of Christ (c. 30 AD) or generations or centuries apart from Christ's time? Your answer is the Judith quote is "according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era". So where is your evidence of a Jewish belief in "eternal hell" at the time of Christ?
I posted:
Your post referenced both Judith and the Book of Enoch. What are those, if not extrabiblical myths, fables or legends which Scripture warns against? Can your alleged interpretations of Scripture by anti-Christian Jews also be considered myths that Jews have created from their own imaginations? Where do the OT Scriptures ever say anything even remotely resembling this: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)." What are the original language words rendered "all eternity"? Is "all eternity" a mistranslation?
Der Alter replied:
There's no Book of Enoch or Judith listed here:
Judith an "Apocryphal book"
"Thus forms of the Books of Judith, Maccabees and Ben Sira, as well as parts of Wisdom of Solomon were familiar to Jewish scholars. But these works never achieved wide acceptance in Judaism and remained, to a greater or lesser extent, curiosities."
"The oldest known Jewish work not included in the Bible is the Book of Enoch."
"The Book of Enoch...contradicts scripture, lies about biblical cosmology...and perverts God's mercy and plan of salvation"
"Although it was likely written by a Jewish person during the Second Temple Period, there is no evidence that the Book of Judith was ever considered authoritative or a candidate for canonicity by any Jewish group."
"The Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible does not contain it, nor was it found among the Dead Sea Scrolls or referred to in any early Rabbinic literature."
"The content of the books of the Apocrypha is below that of canonical Scripture. Several of the books including Judith, Tobit, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon read like ***LEGENDS***. When one reads these books alongside canonical Scripture the differences become obvious." (emphasis, mine)
Speaking of legends:
2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)
I posted:
A worm not dying & unquenched fire does not necessarily equate in any sane, sound minded thinking individual (who has not been brainwashed) to "eternal punishment" where people are tortured for all eternity. Don't be ridiculous. Also see this re Mark 9:43-49 which you've never addressed or refuted, though posted to you many times before:
If Jesus believed in "eternal punishment", why didn't He use the anti-Christian Jews words you quoted in your post, namely: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)." By Jesus' choice to reject using such words, does He - REJECT - that Jewish belief?
Der Alter replied:in this forum are Christians talking about the same things. Does that mean they all believe in an "eternal torture chamber"? Yet that's what your argument amounts to. Lame.
I just used your same method to argue against your conclusion. First you assume Jesus believed in "eternal hell". Then you assume He confirmed a belief in "eternal hell" allegedly believed by an ancient Jewish apocryphal author just because he used some similar but different language as Jesus did. Yet the Jewish author's words, if they were properly translated, clearly affirm "eternal hell", while Jesus' words do not.
Why would He leave out the most important part, the part about an eternity of pain, if He was wishing to affirm a Jewish person's belief in an eternity of pain? Clearly He didn't mirror the beliefs of the Pharisees, since He rejected a number of their beliefs, for He warned against the teachings of the Pharisees:
"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducee's,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)." "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9). Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."(Jn.8:44).
2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)
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