Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Der Alter said:

Quoting a sentence from YLT is not an explanation and did not specifically address or refute anything I posted. "Hey DA I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh! Because one guy who has been dead for 130 years said that 'aion' means 'age.'"

Click to expand...

actually I did explain it. You said that Jesus reign has no end and I showed you that it did not mean what you thought it meant. Jesus reign only UNTIL he has subjected all then he become subject to the father

Pneuma3 said:

You did not prove anything and I don't need YLT, scripture tells us the aion and its adjective END. Thus scripture refutes what you call irrefutable logic.

Click to expand...

Nonsense! Are you familiar with the term "hyperbole" which OBTW derives from the Greek word ὑπερβολή/uperbole. It occurs 7 times in the NT. It means the same thing in Greek as the English derivative. The definition of any word is not determined by isolated occurrences. OTOH I have shown from several passages that aion/aionios are PROVEN to mean eternity/eternal by being paired with words such as "shall have no end.""immortal,"unchangeable" etc.

And I showed you that your understanding of that scripture was in error, but your selective reading must have missed it.

Click to expand...

Someone saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh" does not show me anything. Can you quote any credible Greek scholar who can prove beyond question that aion does not, cannot mean eternity? And that aionios does not, cannot mean eternal?

Context, context context, you keep harping on context yet when I asked you to read in context 1tim4 you refuse to do so and I know why.

Click to expand...

Unless you have considered the context of the entire NT you have not shown me any context which I have ignored. Here is some more context for you to consider. And this is a work in progress. I'm not finished yet.
Jesus specified a certain group will be saved, those who stand firm to the end, those who do not stand firm, will not be saved.
The converse is whoever does not do the will of God will not live forever.
John does not say everyone will be saved only those who love but those who do not love will remain in death.
Jesus does not say that everyone will be saved no matter what but no murderer has eternal life in him.
Is John saying that all mankind will be saved no matter what? Did John forget what he said in vss. 2:17, 3:14, 3:15 and did he not know what he was going to say in vss. 5:12, 5:16?
In vs. 5:14 John said “the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world” . In vs. 5:19 John said “the whole world is under the control of the evil one.” Was the entire world actually under the control of the evil one when John wrote this letter?
Hebrews 4:10-11
(10) for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his.
(11) Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
Hebrews 6:4-6
(4) It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
(5) who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
(6) and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Hebrews 10:39
(39) But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

Pneuma3 said:

actually I did explain it. You said that Jesus reign has no end and I showed you that it did not mean what you thought it meant. Jesus reign only UNTIL he has subjected all then he become subject to the father

Click to expand...

That's what you want the verse to say but not what the verse actually says. Here is my verse again, spoken by the angel of God to Mary, announcing the birth of Jesus..
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei. the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

Der Alter said:

The definition of any word is not determined by isolated occurrences. OTOH I have shown from several passages that aion/aionios are PROVEN to mean eternity/eternal by being paired with words such as "shall have no end.""immortal,"unchangeable" etc.

Click to expand...

If "shall have no end" proves aion/aionion means eternity/eternal, then all the Scripture passages that speak of aion/aionion coming to an end - prove - that aion/aionion do NOT mean eternity/eternal!

"Consider the N. T. use of aion. Does “eternity” make any sense in the following passages? To make my point unmistakable, I have translated the Greek word aion with the English word “eternity.”

¨ What will be the sign…of the end of the eternity (Mt. 24:3)?

¨ I am with you…to the end of the eternity (Mt. 28:20).

¨ The sons of this eternity are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).

¨ The sons of this eternity marry (Lu. 20:34).

¨ Worthy to attain that eternity (Lu. 20:35).

¨ Since the eternity began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).

¨ Conformed to this eternity (Ro. 12:2).

¨ Mystery kept secret since the eternity began but now made manifest (Ro. 16:25-26).

¨ Where is the disputer of this eternity (1Co. 1:20)?

¨ Wisdom of this eternity, nor of the rulers of this eternity…ordained before the eternities…which none of the rulers of this eternity…(1Co. 2:6-8)

¨ Wise in this eternity (1Co. 3:18).

¨ Upon whom the ends of the eternities have come.
(1Co. 10:11)

¨ God of this eternity has blinded (2Co. 4:4).

¨ Deliver us from this present evil eternity (Ga. 1:4).

¨ Not only in this eternity but also in that which is to come (Ep. 1:21).

¨ Walked according to the eternity of this world (Ep. 2:2).

¨ In the eternities to come (Ep. 2:7).

¨ From the beginnings of the eternities (Ep. 3:9).

¨ Hidden from eternities…but now…revealed (Col. 1:26).

¨ Loved this present eternity (2Ti. 4:10).

¨ Receive him for eternity (Ph.1:15). Does this mean forever or only until Onesimus dies?

¨ Powers of the eternity to come (He. 6:5).

¨ At the end of the eternities (He. 9:26).

¨ We understand the eternities have been prepared by a saying of God (He. 11:3).

How can we say…

¨ “Before eternity” or “eternity began”? Eternity has no beginning (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21; 1Co. 2:7; Ep. 3:9).

¨ “Present eternity,” “eternity to come,” and “end of eternity?” Eternity transcends time. Only God is eternal (Mt. 24:3; 28:20; 1Co. 10:11; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 6:5; 9:26).

¨ “This eternity,” “that eternity,” or “eternities”? There is only one eternity (Lu. 16:8; 20:34-35; Ro. 12:2; 1Co. 1:20; 2:6-8; 3:18; 10:11; 2Co. 4:4; Ga. 1:4; Ep. 1:21; 2:2, 7; 3:9; Col. 1:26; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 11:3).

¨ “Eternal secret” if the secret is revealed? (Ro. 16:25-26; Col. 1:26). It is no longer a “secret” at that point."

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

ClementofA said:

http;//www,hopebeyondhell,net/articles/further-study/eternity/

Click to expand...

Evidently you consider hopebeyondhell to be a pope that must be obeyed. Do you have any independent thoughts on this topic at all?

Der Alter said:

Evidently you consider hopebeyondhell to be a pope that must be obeyed. Do you have any independent thoughts on this topic at all?

Click to expand...

LOL

Der Alter said:

Matthew 10:22
(22) You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:13
(13) but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Mark 13:13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
(13) Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
​

Jesus specified a certain group will be saved, those who stand firm to the end, those who do not stand firm, will not be saved.

Click to expand...

Which only refers to salvation at the time of "the end". In context "the end" has been interpreted as referring to such things as

(1) c. 70 AD when the Roman armies came & destroyed Jerusalem, but the Christians were "saved", i.e. delivered, IOW they escaped the Roman slaughtering of the Jews & the horrific things that came upon them then, or

(2) "the end" refers to the time of Christ's return when Christians will be saved & the lost cast into "hell" till they repent, are purified by Christ's blood & also become saved.

So the above out-of-context Scripture passages you posted fail as your "proof texts" against the biblical truth of universalism. Ditto for all the other lame "proof texts" you quoted.

You can't show a single place in the entire Bible where it says anyone will "never be saved":

"never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

Continued at:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

Der Alter said:

Hebrews 6:4-6
(4) It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
(5) who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
(6) and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Click to expand...

So do you believe a Christian can lose his eternal life & lose his salvation? Many Christians believe those verses refer to a Christian & that Christians cannot lose their salvation. See the following thread where the OP shows the passage is in harmony with universalism:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/impossible-to-renew-unto-repentance-heb-6-3-6.8073582/

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Der Alter said:

Hebrews 3:10-11
(10) That is why I was angry with that generation; I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.'
(11) So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'"[Ps 95:9-11]

Ps 95:10-11
(10) For forty years I was angry with that generation; I said, 'They are a people whose hearts go astray, and they have not known my ways.'
(11) So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'"

Hebrews 4:3
(3) Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'" And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world

Hebrews 4:10-11
(10) for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his.
(11) Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

Click to expand...

Those verses refers to unbelievers. As long as they remain unbelievers they cannot enter into God's "rest". The passages don't tell us whether or not all unbelievers will eventually become believers. So they tell us nothing about the final destiny of unbelievers & fail as out-of-context "proof texts" against Scriptural universalism.

Furthermore, those translations are misleading & have been badly translated, as the Greek word for "never", oudepote, never occurs in any of them. See the comments below by Greek scholar Marvin Vincent.

Moreover, the translation "perish" is an NIV aberration, as almost every one of dozens of versions here say "fall": https://biblehub.com/hebrews/4-11.htm.


Vincent's Word Studies
So I swear (ὡς)
Rend. "according as I:swear": the ὡς correlating the oath and the disobedience.

They shall not enter into my rest (εἰ ἐλεύσονται εἰς τὴν κατάπαυσιν μου)

Lit. if they shall enter, etc. A common Hebraistic formula in oaths. Where God is speaking, as here, the ellipsis is "may I not be Jehovah if they shall enter." Where man is speaking, "so may God punish me if"; or "God do so to me and more if." Comp. Mark 8:12 : lxx, Genesis 14:23; Deuteronomy 1:35; 1 Kings 1:51; 1 Kings 2:8. Sometimes the ellipsis is filled out, as 1 Samuel 3:17; 2 Samuel 3:35. Κατάπαυσιν rest, only in Hebrews, and Acts 7:49. The verb καταπαύειν to lay to rest also only in Acts and Hebrews. In Class. the verb sometimes means to kill or to depose from power. In the original citation the reference is to Canaan. Paul uses κληρονομία inheritance in a similar sense.

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/3-11.htm

Vincent's Word Studies
For we which have believed do enter into rest (εἰσερχόμεθα γὰρ εἰς τὴν κατάπαυσιν οἱ πιστεύσαντες)
I say by faith, for, we believers, who embraced the Christian faith when it was offered to us (note the aorist participle), do enter into the rest. Ἐισερχόμεθα categorical; not are entering or are on the way to, but entering into the rest is a fact which characterizes us as believers.

As he said (καθὼς εἴρηκεν)

We enter in accordance with the saying which follows.

As I have sworn - if they shall enter

The statement is somewhat obscure. The meaning is, we (who believed) enter into rest in accordance with God's declaration that they (who did not believe) should not enter. The point is faith as the condition of entering into the rest.

Although the works were finished (καίτοι τῶν ἔργων γενηθέντων)

This is an awkward and indirect way of saying, "these unbelievers did not enter into God's rest, although he had provided that rest into which they might have entered." The providing of the rest is implied in the completion of God's works. The writer assumes the readers' acquaintance with the narrative of the creation in Genesis.

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/4-3.htm

Der Alter said:

Matthew 12:31-32
(31) And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
(32) Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Luke 12:10
(10) And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Click to expand...

More literal, accurate & faithful translations read like the following:

Mt.12:31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be pardoned men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be pardoned. 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be pardoned, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be pardoned, either in this age or in the one to come. (CLV)

The parallel passage in Mark says in literal translations:

28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-" (CLV)

29 who but ever may speak evil to the spirit the holy, not has forgiveness to the age, but liable is of age-lasting judgment. (Diaglott)

29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness—to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment; (YLT)

29 But, whosoever shall revile against the Holy Spirit, hath no forgiveness, unto times age-abiding,—but is guilty of an age-abiding sin: (Rotherham)

Paul speaks of the age to come (Eph.1:21). In the same context he refers to multiple ages to come (Eph.2:7), as do many other Scriptures (e.g. Lk.1:33; Rev.11:15). So a sin that is not pardoned in this age or the coming age does not require it mean it can never be pardoned, or that it cannot be pardoned in an age following the coming age.

For some people who lied to the Holy Spirit they were not pardoned from the penalty of death, which was an immediate physical death (e.g. Acts 5). The fact they were not pardoned from dying immediately did not mean they were to suffer endless punishments.

In this case a person is not pardoned. But it is limited until he die:

Isa 22:14 But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, "Surely this iniquity shall not be forgiven [purged/atoned] you Until you die," says the Lord GOD of hosts.

Was the immoral person of 1 Cor.5:4-5 pardoned while in his sin? No, he was given over to Satan for destruction that he might be saved in the day of the Lord.

Was King Nebuchadnezzar pardoned during the 7 years God made him insanely eat grass like an animal. No. Though he wasn't pardoned, he wasn't punished forever, either.

Here we see a sin that won't be pardoned. It won't be pardoned "until" they pardon others:

Mt.6:15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Similarly, the not being pardoned here is "until" a certain point:

Mt.18:34 In his anger, his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed. 35 That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart.

If such a horrific thing as eternal punishment were the idea in Mt.12:31-32 & Mk.3:28-29, would Christ have used the ambiguous words aion & aionios? No. He would have used words such as eternal (aidios, Rom.1:20; Jude 6), endless (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4), no end (Lk.1:33), unlimited (apeiron, by Philo). Since He never used such words, He did not teach endless annihilation or torments.

The Spirit blasphemers (Heb.10:28-29) are even worse than a "serial sinner" such as Saul of Tarsus who was persecuting Spirit filled Christians, even unto death.

Even then, all of God's punishments are corrective, not merely pointlessly or sadistically meting out justice for justice's sake, but for the good of all, including the offender.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

I really like this topic as it has been a passion of mine for years. Let me start off by saying that I not only agree with you that eternal torture is a twisted, perverted construct of the word of God. but it was dreamed up for the sole purpose not of the human emotion of revenge but by power hungry people who used it as a scare tactic to get others to do what they wanted and to get money. Secondly this isn't the only perversion of God's word by false leaders to immorally get ahead through manipulation of believers. Christianity is not true Christianity and hasn't been since the indoctrination of a certain religion around 312 a.d. that has changed not only christian beliefs to evil and sacrilegious but has had the worldly power to mislead almost every Christian into worshiping in a polytheistic belief in the name of God and has displayed the power of the Antichrist for over a thousand years to change times and season i.e. the calendar that we recognize today. Saying that mouthful. if there was eternal torment there would have been no use and a contradiction to add the verse that states you should not be afraid of the power that can only kill your flesh but fear the only one that can kill the flesh and the spirit and also the verse that refers to the second death. The death of the spirit. I believe that through many places in the bible fire is used as a refining and purifying tool. I believe that at the great white throne judgement when the righteous receive their rewards and the wicked will cease to exist. We will all go through the lake of fire. The righteous that lived by faith and dedication will need to be less purified and as such get a greater reward. the so-so Christians that didn't live much by God's word but believed and had faith will have more of there spirit burnt away and be less so they receive less of a reward. Fprom gold and silk to wood and line and maybe even naked if there is very little of them left and the the wicked who will have no part of them left after the lake of fire burns away evil deeds and iniquity. Leaving them to be blotted and and no-one remembering them. I don't believe God would create just to torture. I believe it will be as they never existed.

Der Alter said:

Someone saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh" does not show me anything. Can you quote any credible Greek scholar who can prove beyond question that aion does not, cannot mean eternity? And that aionios does not, cannot mean eternal?

Click to expand...

I am not saying I'm right and you are wrong DA I am saying scripture says you are wrong as they state that the aion and its adjective come to an end. Thus I do not need any credible (you actually mean by that scholars you agree with) Greek scholars to prove anything. I can rely solely on the scriptures, you on the other hand must rely on man's interpretation of the scriptures.

what you want to do is play around with words and pick and choose when they mean something else according to your doctrine.

Der Alter said:

Nonsense! Are you familiar with the term "hyperbole" which OBTW derives from the Greek word ὑπερβολή/uperbole. It occurs 7 times in the NT. It means the same thing in Greek as the English derivative. The definition of any word is not determined by isolated occurrences. OTOH I have shown from several passages that aion/aionios are PROVEN to mean eternity/eternal by being paired with words such as "shall have no end.""immortal,"unchangeable" etc.

Someone saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh" does not show me anything. Can you quote any credible Greek scholar who can prove beyond question that aion does not, cannot mean eternity? And that aionios does not, cannot mean eternal?

Unless you have considered the context of the entire NT you have not shown me any context which I have ignored. Here is some more context for you to consider. And this is a work in progress. I'm not finished yet.

Matthew 10:22
(22) You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:13
(13) but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Mark 13:13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
(13) Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.​

Jesus specified a certain group will be saved, those who stand firm to the end, those who do not stand firm, will not be saved.

1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.​

The converse is whoever does not do the will of God will not live forever.

1 John 3:14
(14) We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death.​

John does not say everyone will be saved only those who love but those who do not love will remain in death.

1 John 3:15
(15) Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.​

Jesus does not say that everyone will be saved no matter what but no murderer has eternal life in him.

1 John 4:14
(14) And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.​

Is John saying that all mankind will be saved no matter what? Did John forget what he said in vss. 2:17, 3:14, 3:15 and did he not know what he was going to say in vss. 5:12, 5:16?

1 John 5:12
(12) Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1 John 5:16
(16) If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.
1 John 5:19
(19) We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.​

In vs. 5:14 John said “the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world” . In vs. 5:19 John said “the whole world is under the control of the evil one.” Was the entire world actually under the control of the evil one when John wrote this letter?

Matthew 10:39
(39) Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
2 Peter 2:15
(15) They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness.
2 Peter 2:17
(17) These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them.
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Luke 13:28
(28) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
1 Corinthians 1:2
(2) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners,shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:11
(11) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Revelations 21:7-8
(7) Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.
(8) But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Hebrews 6:11-12
(11) We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized.
(12) We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
Matthew 12:31-32
(31) And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
(32) Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Luke 12:10
(10) And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
Hebrews 3:10-11
(10) That is why I was angry with that generation; I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.'
(11) So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'"[Ps 95:9-11]

Ps 95:10-11
(10) For forty years I was angry with that generation; I said, 'They are a people whose hearts go astray, and they have not known my ways.'
(11) So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'"​

Hebrews 4:3
(3) Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'" And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world
Romans 9:27
(27) Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.[Isa 10:22]​

Hebrews 4:10-11
(10) for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his.
(11) Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
Hebrews 6:4-6
(4) It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
(5) who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
(6) and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Hebrews 10:39
(39) But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

Click to expand...

and what are all those scriptures suppose to prove? they say NOTHING about all being saved or not. You just keep reading into scripture your doctrine which is contrary to what we are commanded to teach which is as you know, but reject, is Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.

So in effect you are teaching "another" gospel then the one we are COMMANDED to teach.

So if you believe scripture is true then you should re-evaluate what you believe with what we are commanded to teach. Jesus Christ IS the saviour of ALL MEN, not the potential saviour of ALL MEN.

Der Alter said:

That's what you want the verse to say but not what the verse actually says. Here is my verse again, spoken by the angel of God to Mary, announcing the birth of Jesus..

Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]​

In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei. the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

Revelation 22:1-5
(1) Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal. It was flowing from the throne of God and the lamb.
(2) Between the city street and the river, the tree of life was visible from each side. It produced twelve kinds of fruit, each month having its own fruit. The leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.
(3) There will no longer be any curse. The throne of God and the lamb will be in the city. His servants will worship him
(4) and see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
(5) There will be no more night, and they will not need any light from lamps or the sun because the Lord God will shine on them. They [God and the lamb vss. 1, 3] will rule forever and ever.​

Click to expand...

already explained this twice now so maybe you can explain they will rule for eternity and eternity. How can there be more then 1 eternity?

Der Alter said:

Hebrews 10:39
(39) But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

Click to expand...

39 and we are not of those drawing back to destruction, but of those believing to a preserving of soul. (YLT)
39 Yet we are not of those shrinking back to destruction, but of faith for the procuring of the soul. (CLV)
39 We, however, are not of a drawing back unto destruction, but, of faith, unto an acquisition of life. RO)
39 We but not are for shrinking back, to destruction; but for faith, to a saving of life. (DG)

"We are not cowards who slink away, and notwithstanding meet destruction; but we are faithful, and have our souls saved alive. The words περιποιησις ψυχης signify the preservation of the life. See the note, Ephesians 1:14. He intimates that, notwithstanding the persecution was hot, yet they should escape with their lives.

"It is very remarkable, and I have more than once called the reader's attention to it, that not one Christian life was lost in the siege and destruction of Jerusalem. Every Jew perished, or was taken captive; all those who had apostatized, and slunk away from Christianity, perished with them: all the genuine Christians escaped with their lives. This very important information, which casts light on many passages in the New Testament, and manifests the grace and providence of God in a very conspicuous way, is given both by Eusebius and Epiphanius. I shall adduce their words: "When the whole congregation of the Church in Jerusalem, according to an oracle given by revelation to the approved persons among them before the war, κατα τινα χρησμον τοις αυτοθι δοκιμοις δι 'αποκαλυψεως δοθεντα προ του πολεμου, μεταναστηναι της πολεως, και τινα της περαιας πολιν οικειν κεκελευσμενου, Πελλαν αυτην ονομαζουσιν, were commanded to depart from the city, and inhabit a certain city which they call Pella, beyond Jordan, to which, when all those who believed in Christ had removed from Jerusalem, and when the saints had totally abandoned the royal city which is the metropolis of the Jews; then the Divine vengeance seized them who had dealt so wickedly with Christ and his apostles, and utterly destroyed that wicked and abominable generation." Euseb. Hist. Eccles, l. iii. c. v. vol. i. p. 93. Edit. a Reading."
"St. Epiphanius, in Haeres. Nazaren, c. 7, says: "The Christians who dwelt in Jerusalem, being forewarned by Christ of the approaching siege, removed to Pella."
The same, in his book De Ponderibus et Mensuris, says: "The disciples of Christ being warned by an angel, removed to Pella; and afterwards, when Adrian rebuilt Jerusalem, and called it after his own name, Aelia Colonia, they returned thither." As those places in Epiphanius are of considerable importance, I shall subjoin the original: Εκειθεν γαρ ἡ αρχη γεγονε μετα την απο των Ἱεροσολυμων μεταστασιν, παντων των μαθητων των εν Πελλῃ ῳκηκοτων, Χριστου φησαντος καταλειψαι τα Ἱεροσολυμα, και αναχωρησαι, επειδη ημελλε πασχειν πολιορκιαν . Epiph. adver. Haeres., l. i. c. 7, vol. i. p. 123. Edit. Par. 1622. The other place is as follows: Ἡνικα γαρ εμελλεν ἡ πολις ἁλισκεσθαι ὑπο των Ῥωμαιων, προεχρηματισθησαν ὑπο Αγγελου παντες οἱ μαθηται μεταστηναι απο της πολεως, μελλουσης αρδην απολλυσθαι. Οἱ τινες και μετανασται γενομενοι ῳκησαν εν Πελλῃ - περαν του Ιορδανου, ἡ τις εκ Δεκαπολεως λεγεται ειναι . Ibid. De Pon. et Mens., vol. ii. p. 171."

"These are remarkable testimonies, and should be carefully preserved. Pella, it appears, was a city of Coelesyria, beyond Jordan, in the district of Decapolis. Thus it is evident that these Christians held fast their faith, preserved their shields, and continued to believe to the saving of their lives as well as to the saving of their souls. As the apostle gives several hints of the approaching destruction of Jerusalem, it is likely that this is the true sense in which the words above are to be understood."

https://www.studylight.org/commentary/hebrews/10-39.html

Pneuma3 said:

begin

Click to expand...

<P3>I am not saying I'm right and you are wrong DA I am saying scripture says you are wrong as they state that the aion and its adjective come to an end. Thus I do not need any credible (you actually mean by that scholars you agree with) Greek scholars to prove anything. I can rely solely on the scriptures, you on the other hand must rely on man's interpretation of the scriptures.
what you want to do is play around with words and pick and choose when they mean something else according to your doctrine.<end>

end

Click to expand...

Yep, there's lots of folks running around who think having a Strong's concordance makes them a Greek expert. No, you don't rely on scripture, I doubt that you could parse a Greek verb or locate a Hebrew verb if your life depended on it. You rely on a biased interpretation of selective out-of-context verses, formed by umpteen years of intense indoctrination by equally unqualified UR teachers.

Pneuma3 said:

already explained this twice now so maybe you can explain they will rule for eternity and eternity. How can there be more then 1 eternity?

Click to expand...

Once again displaying the total lack of understanding of Koine Greek. People who know zilch about koine Greek all make this same mistake. There are more than 200 figures of speech in the Bible. See "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible," E.W. Bullinger. Who OBTW was UR. One such figure of speech is "Epezeuxis."
And just so you know aion and aionios are not the only words which are repeated for emphasis in the Bible.

Der Alter said:

You rely on a biased interpretation of selective out-of-context verses, formed by umpteen years of intense indoctrination by equally unqualified UR teachers.

Click to expand...

Who's your "teacher", Augustine?:

LadyCrosstalk said:

Augustine actually taught that un-baptized infants go to hell--which I consider to be quite dreadful--a doctrine of demons.

Click to expand...

Oldmantook said:

I think Augustine has done more damage to the church then any other - not only regarding original sin but also the retributive notion of hell. He popularized the idea of eternal punishment based upon his abysmal knowledge of Greek and had to rely on his understanding of Latin instead.

Click to expand...

Augustine was a leading man in doctrines of demons.

Or is your teacher Jonathan Edwards?:

GregoryN;5266903 said:

How much of this is human opinion:

"Jonathan Edwards, The Eternity of Hell Torments, 1739"

" “The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven. The sight of hell’s torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.” "

Click to expand...

"Why does my whole being react with horror at such a belief?"

"Because it’s such an evil position to delight in the suffering of others. It reveals the wicked heart and character of a person who would do so. Rather than the heavenly father being happy with the suffering in hell… rather than this suffering INCREASING His bliss, He is “not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” "

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html


"That any should suffer forever, lingering on in hopeless despair, and rolling amidst infinite torments without the possibility of alleviation and without end; that since God can save men and will save a part, he has not proposed to save all-these are real, not imaginary, difficulties. . . . My whole soul pants for light and relief on these questions. But I get neither; and in the distress and anguish of my own spirit, I confess that I see no light whatever. I see not one ray to disclose to me why sin came into the world; why the earth is strewn with the dying and the dead; and why man must suffer to all eternity. I have never seen a particle of light thrown on these subjects, that has given a moment's ease to my tortured mind . . . I confess, when I look on a world of sinners and sufferers- upon death-beds and grave-yards- upon the world of woe filled with hosts to suffer for ever: when I see my friends, my family, my people, my fellow citizens, when I look upon a whole race, all involved in this sin and danger- and when I see the great mass of them wholly unconcerned, and when I feel that God only can save them, and yet he does not do so, I am struck dumb. It is all dark, dark, dark to my soul, and I cannot disguise it." -- Albert Barnes

Practical Sermons Designed for Vacant Congregations and Families
By Albert Barnes [p.123ff]
https://books.google.ca/books?id=ANcTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123&lpg=PA123&dq=That+any+should+suffer+forever,+lingering+on+in+hopeless+despair&source=bl&ots=LrwKIXWlUT&sig=mqkHw3bYsbC1CznTHVxq3sjapP8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj1g-Pu5t_cAhVAHTQIHfKlAXEQ6AEwAHoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=That any should suffer forever, lingering on in hopeless despair&f=false

If you think Love Omnipotent's love is finite & expires like a carton of milk so He can torture most of His creatures called human beings in fire with immortal worms eating them for all endless trillions X trillions X trillions of eons, forever and ever and ever, you will have to prove it.


http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Der Alter said:

Once again displaying the total lack of understanding of Koine Greek. People who know zilch about koine Greek all make this same mistake. There are more than 200 figures of speech in the Bible. See "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible," E.W. Bullinger. Who OBTW was UR. One such figure of speech is "Epezeuxis."

When the words do not immediately succeed each other, but are separated by one or more intervening words, the figure is then called EPIZEUXIS. pronounced Ep -i-seux'-is. The intervening words thus form the yoke which joins the repeated words.
We may give the figure the English name of “Duplication,” Gemination.” “ Iteration,” or “ Repetition.” It is a common and powerful way of emphasizing a particular word, by thus marking it and calling attention to it. P. 189

Rev. i. 6.—” The ages of the ages,. i.e., to the remotest age, for ever and ever. p.284
https://archive.org/stream/figuresofspeechu00bull#page/189/mode/1up/search/epizeuxis​

And just so you know aion and aionios are not the only words which are repeated for emphasis in the Bible.

Click to expand...

Der Alter said:

And you criticized me for copy/pasting a quote from E.W. Bullingers "Figures of Speech in the Bible." There are several pages of examples of Epizeuxis in this source. One of those is for ever and ever. In view of this evidence you must prove that for ever and ever is not Epizeuxis.

Epizeuxis: or, Duplication The Repetition of the Same Word in the Same Sense.
When the word is repeated in close and immediate succession, no other word or words coming between, it is called GEMINATIO , pronounced Gem-i-n ´-tio , which means a doubling, duplication, a re-doubling . It is also called ITERATIO ( It´-er- -ti-o ), iteration; CONDUPLICATIO ( con-d -pli-ca´-tio ), conduplication , or full doubling . When the words do not immediately succeed each other, but are separated by one or more intervening words, the figure is then called EPIZEUXIS , pronounced Ep´-i-zeux´-is epi ), upon , and (zeugnumi), to yoke , or join closely together . The intervening words thus form the yoke which joins the repeated words
…
We may give the figure the English name of Duplication, Gemination, Iteration, or Repetition. It is a common and powerful way of emphasizing a particular word, by thus marking it and calling attention to it. In writing, one might accomplish this by putting the word in larger letters, or by underlining it two or three times. In speaking, it is easy to mark it by expressing it with increased emphasis or vehemence. How important for us to notice, in the Scriptures, the words and expressions which the Holy Spirit has thus marked and emphasized in order to impress us with their importance! pp. 200-201
...
II. NOUNS AND PRONOUNS
( b ) In singular and genitive plural
A noun is repeated in the genitive plural in order to express very emphatically the superlative degree which does not exist in Hebrew. See under Idiom . Thus this figure is a kind of Enallage ( q.v. ), or exchange, by which a noun in the genitive plural, is used instead of a superlative adjective. …
Daniel 2:37 . Ezekiel 26:17 . A king of kings : i.e. , the most mighty king.
Daniel 2:47 . God of gods : i.e. , the great, living, or true God. The most mighty God.
Daniel 8:25 . The Prince of princes : i.e. , the most powerful Prince. Hosea 10:1
…
1 Timothy 6:15 . The King of kings, and Lord of lords. Compare Revelation 17:14 and 19:16 .
Revelation 1:6 . The ages of the ages , i.e. , to the remotest age, for ever and ever. pp. 301-302
E.W. Bullinger Link: [Figures of Speech in the Bible]

Click to expand...

Bullinger is certainly entitled to his wrong opinion. However, since Scripture always trumps opinions & bulloni, in this case it also trumps the bulloni of Bullinger. Since Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15:25), His reign "into the ages of the ages" (Rev.11:15) cannot be for ever and ever. Nor can "ages of the ages" be for ever and ever, since it ends along with Christ's reign for the "ages of the ages".

As for Bullinger's biased opinion, he gives no evidence for his viewpoint of "the ages of the ages"meaning "to the remotest age". Why did he not instead determine it means to the remotest "ages" (plural) since the word is in the plural? Why not "to the most excellent age" or ages, as he states re the "song of songs"? Or "to the greatest ages" as he states regarding "vanity of vanities"? Why blindly accept Bullinger's bald unsupported opinion? Is he a pope? Did he know Greek better than the early church universalists, such as the church father Origen, who spoke of an end of all ages, an end of age of the ages & an end of ages of the ages? If these periods of finite time have an end, then they are not, as Bullinger claims, for ever and ever.

Furthermore, he gives no reason for how he magicly leaps from "to the remotest age" to "for ever and ever". If torment is "to" or "until" a certain age, then it ends before that age starts, so it is not for ever and ever. If torment is "into" (EIS) "the remotest age", that does not necessarily mean it lasts for the entire duration of that age, even if the age is endless. If torment is "into the ages of the ages", the torment makes entrance into those ages, not necessarily throughout the entire duration of them. Therefore the torment "into the ages of the ages" (e.g. Rev.20:10) is of an indefinite period of time. From other Scriptures it is clear that the torment ends.

5 Scriptural evidences that ages of ages end:

(1) The smoke going up forever and ever (literally, into the ages of the ages, Rev.19:3) is finite in duration. For the fire as the source of the smoke will cease burning after the city is "utterly burned" (Rev.18:8) & "found no more" (18:21). Also the old earth passes away (Rev.21:1), so how would the city continue to smoke "for ever and ever"?

(2) The saints reign for "the ages of the ages" (Rev.22:5). But this is only until all rule & all authority are abolished (1 Cor.15:24). Consequently one interpretation of the phrase "forever and ever" in Rev.22:5 is that it is of finite duration.

(3) Christ reigns "for the ages of the ages" (Rev.11:15). Since His reign is "until" He gives up the kingdom (1 Cor.15:25-26), His reign for "the ages of the ages" is temporary, as is "the ages of the ages" related to it.

(4) Since Scripture teaches universal reconciliaton (e.g. Rev.5:13; Col.1:20), "the ages of the ages" referred to in Rev.20:10 re the torment of the devil cannot be endless.
Likewise with other lesser sinners [e.g. humans] that may be punished in the lake of fire (cf. Rev.14:11 which uses a similar phrase, "ages of ages", without the definite article "the").

(5) Comparing Rev.20:10 with Matthew 25:41, Jesus said the future of the devil & his angels is fire aionios (Mt.25:41, 46), mistranslated everlasting or "eternal fire" by pro ECT
(eternal conscious torments) Bible versions (e.g. KJV). Fire aionios is also associated with the fire that burnt Sodom (Jude 7). That fire is not eternal & its effects will last only until Sodom is restored (Ezek 16). Thus there is a Scriptural basis for taking the same phrase, fire aionios, which also occurs at Mt.25:41 & 18:8, as referring to a fire that is of finite duration. Likewise with "into eons of the eons" in Rev.20:10 which also refers to the devil's eonian (Mt.25:41) punishment associated with fire. So the devil's eon related punishment by fire in both Mt.25:41 & Rev.20:10 is finite. Therefore, the period "the eons of the eons" (Rev.20:10) must end. And surely since the devil's torments "into the ages of the ages" end, so do those related to human beings (cf. Rev.14:11; Mt.18:8; 25:41), for the same terminology is applied to them. Moreover, they are less sinful than Satan. If his punishment ends, then why not theirs also? Consequently the mistranslation "forever and ever" in Rev.20:10 & 14:11 refers to a finite period of time, with a beginning and an end.

Summing up the argument:

- eonian fire is finite (Jude 7)
- eonian fire is the devil's punishment (Mt.25:41)
- which is equal to his punishment in Rev.20:10
- therefore his punishment is finite &
- his torment for the eons of the eons is finite &
- the eons of the eons themselves are finite

continued at:

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

Der Alter said:

Yep, there's lots of folks running around who think having a Strong's concordance makes them a Greek expert. No, you don't rely on scripture, I doubt that you could parse a Greek verb or locate a Hebrew verb if your life depended on it. You rely on a biased interpretation of selective out-of-context verses, formed by umpteen years of intense indoctrination by equally unqualified UR teachers.

Click to expand...

Lol does scripture or does it not stated aion and its adjective end? Why yes they do. Thus again if scripture is true then obviously you and all your so called scholars are not.

Der Alter said:

Once again displaying the total lack of understanding of Koine Greek. People who know zilch about koine Greek all make this same mistake. There are more than 200 figures of speech in the Bible. See "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible," E.W. Bullinger. Who OBTW was UR. One such figure of speech is "Epezeuxis."
When the words do not immediately succeed each other, but are separated by one or more intervening words, the figure is then called EPIZEUXIS. pronounced Ep -i-seux'-is. The intervening words thus form the yoke which joins the repeated words.
We may give the figure the English name of “Duplication,” Gemination.” “ Iteration,” or “ Repetition.” It is a common and powerful way of emphasizing a particular word, by thus marking it and calling attention to it. P. 189

Rev. i. 6.—” The ages of the ages,. i.e., to the remotest age, for ever and ever. p.284
https://archive.org/stream/figuresofspeechu00bull#page/189/mode/1up/search/epizeuxisAnd just so you know aion and aionios are not the only words which are repeated for emphasis in the Bible.

Click to expand...

Read clements post on this, as he bring up my same point, as you seem to not understand mine