Why are seminaries expanding and ordinations climbing? Because traditional....

[KatherineS]

I am not sure what you mean by the preaching bit.

Canon law had a provision prohibiting women from preaching in church. Pope John Paul II nullified that canon.

 

[StThomasMore]

There is no need to lecture me on who is who and who has written what. I've read much of both their writings, and you have them exactly backward. While I loved Blessed John Paul II, he was definitely the more liberal of the two. You saying something over and over on a message board does not make it true.

I remember when the voting was taking place, many of my liberal Catholic friends were saying "anyone but Ratzinger." They had read much of his work too. Now, some of them, like you, are trying to convince people that he's more liberal than they thought so he's not so bad.

Actions speak louder than words. Actions dictate he's conservative, which is just what the Church needs right now. Carry on.

I agree that John Paul II was more liberal. I think at times he went too overboard on ecumenism, especially with the prayer meeting at Assisi that involved religions like Buddhism, saying Buddhism can be a religion of salvation, and his kissing of the Koran(a book which blatantly denies the divinity of Christ)

I think also we must know the difference between impeccable and infallible. The Pope just like other men, makes mistakes and can do things that are not good for the Church. Sometimes they can do things outright blasphemous and lecherous. Like Pope Alexander VI.

Canon law had a provision prohibiting women from preaching in church. Pope John Paul II nullified that canon.

Altar servers don't really preach in the Church though. Also more traditional parishes still are allowed to have male only altar services if they want to.

 

[Sarcalogos Deus]

When the Seminary of Guadalajara feels that it is in crisis, is when it orders no more than 20 priests a year.

Recently we had a change in church, the former cardinal Juan Sandoval Iñiguez left his place to Cardinal José Francisco Robles, former cardinal of Monterrey. Both are electors.

You can see the pictures of the students of the seminary here:

<-- Seminario Diocesano de Guadalajara - 2010-2011 -->

This is probably a tangent, but why do all the high ranking Mexican clerics I see look European?

 

[Mikey123]

Canon law had a provision prohibiting women from preaching in church. Pope John Paul II nullified that canon.

No, he did not. As stated, the only people qualified to give a homily are ordained men.

 

[KatherineS]

Altar servers don't really preach in the Church though. Also more traditional parishes still are allowed to have male only altar services if they want to.

And traditional parishes might still ban women from preaching.

But I am grateful that Pope John Paul II nullified both the canon against women preaching in church and the prohibition against female altar servers.

 

[JoabAnias]

But I am grateful that Pope John Paul II nullified both the canon against women preaching in church.

 

[KatherineS]

I shouldn't be grateful to the late Holy Father?

 

[Wolseley]

I shouldn't be grateful to the late Holy Father?

Please provide us with documented proof, from the Vatican, where Pope John Paul nullified the ban on women preaching.

If you cannot provide this, from reliable, Church-approved sources, then we will simply have to conclude that such proof does not exist and take it as yet another of your left-wing fantasies.

And don't tell me to look it up myself. You made the claim, you back it up with proof. Since you have insisted so hard in this thread that this was done, it shouldn't be very hard for you at all to provide us with the actual documentation.

I'll wait.

 

[JesusIsTheWay33]

Altar servers don't really preach in the Church though. Also more traditional parishes still are allowed to have male only altar services if they want to.

Actually, it's the other way around: parishes are allowed to have female altar servers if they want to, but it is an exemption from the law rather than the norm.

Furthermore, I was under the impression that only a licensed priest was allowed to preach.

Otherwise, the whole business of giving priests a license seems rather silly, doesn't it?

 

[StThomasMore]

Please provide us with documented proof, from the Vatican, where Pope John Paul nullified the ban on women preaching.

If you cannot provide this, from reliable, Church-approved sources, then we will simply have to conclude that such proof does not exist and take it as yet another of your left-wing fantasies.

And don't tell me to look it up myself. You made the claim, you back it up with proof. Since you have insisted so hard in this thread that this was done, it shouldn't be very hard for you at all to provide us with the actual documentation.

I'll wait.

I think she's confused regarding female altar servers. Or maybe the scripture reading before the homily that a woman can do. Or she could have thought about nun's teaching spiritual or bible study, RCIA teaching and other things.

I personally think female altar servers can be too distracting for the men.

 

[KatherineS]

Please provide us with documented proof, from the Vatican, where Pope John Paul nullified the ban on women preaching.

If you cannot provide this, from reliable, Church-approved sources, then we will simply have to conclude that such proof does not exist and take it as yet another of your left-wing fantasies.

And don't tell me to look it up myself. You made the claim, you back it up with proof. Since you have insisted so hard in this thread that this was done, it shouldn't be very hard for you at all to provide us with the actual documentation.

I'll wait.

Canon 1342 of the 1917 Code of Canon law and the 1964 Constitution on the Liturgy prohibited women from preaching in a church. The Constitution read: " &#8220;The sacred celebration of the Word of God should be promoted .... especially which lack a priest, in which case a deacon or another man delegated by the Bishop can conduct the celebration.&#8221;

Prior to John Paul II's repeal of Canon 1342, women, even women whose vocation is to be a preacher*, could not legally preach in a church while a layman could.

My own parish greatly benefits from lay women who have offered some tremendosuly powerful preaching at Vespers, Benediction, parish missions and services of the Word.

God bless John Paul II for this important change.

I noticed your tone in asking this question was a little strident. Now that I have responded, I'm sure you are inclined to apologize. There is no need. Apology accepted in advance.



* And before you go flying off the handle on this one, speak to a Dominican nun. Actually, just write a letter to one, properly addressed, and think about what you are doing.

 

[Wolseley]

Canon 1342 of the 1917 Code of Canon law and the 1964 Constitution on the Liturgy prohibited women from preaching in a church. The Constitution read: " “The sacred celebration of the Word of God should be promoted .... especially which lack a priest, in which case a deacon or another man delegated by the Bishop can conduct the celebration.”

Prior to John Paul II's repeal of Canon 1342, women, even women whose vocation is to be a preacher*, could not legally preach in a church while a layman could.

My own parish greatly benefits from lay women who have offered some tremendosuly powerful preaching at Vespers, Benediction, parish missions and services of the Word.

God bless John Paul II for this important change.

I noticed your tone in asking this question was a little strident. Now that I have responded, I'm sure you are inclined to apologize. There is no need. Apology accepted in advance.



* And before you go flying off the handle on this one, speak to a Dominican nun. Actually, just write a letter to one, properly addressed, and think about what you are doing.

Not good enough, Katherine. You provided me with documentation of the prohibition, but you still haven't provided me with proof of the repeal. All you did was simply repeat that it was repealed. Show me where Canon 1342 was officially repealed by Pope John Paul, or anybody else in the Vatican, for that matter.

 

[KatherineS]

Not good enough, Katherine. You provided me with documentation of the prohibition, but you still haven't provided me with proof of the repeal. All you did was simply repeat that it was repealed. Show me where Canon 1342 was officially repealed by Pope John Paul, or anybody else in the Vatican, for that matter.

In the new Code of Canon law, promulgated by John Paul II, we now have the old Canon 1342 replaced with Canon 766: "Laypersons can be admitted to preach in a church or oratory."

Again, apology accepted.

 

[isshinwhat]

You are not talking about a homily during Mass, correct?

 

[Fantine]

No, not during a homily.

I have heard a female Presbyterian minister speak twice in a Catholic church at an ecumenical service (the Blessed Sacrament was removed from the tabernacle).

I also heard a female Methodist minister give a eulogy at a man's funeral (the man had been homebound and had lived in a town 8 or 9 miles away. A Methodist church in that town adopted him and visited him because the Catholic church couldn't get there often enough. I think it was very fitting that she delivered a eulogy.)

 

[Wolseley]

In the new Code of Canon law, promulgated by John Paul II, we now have the old Canon 1342 replaced with Canon 766: "Laypersons can be admitted to preach in a church or oratory."

Again, apology accepted.

Uh-huh. Now read further down in Canon 766: "with due regard for Canon 767".

And what does Canon 767 say? "Among the forms of preaching the homily is preeminent; it is part of the liturgy itself and is reserved to a priest or deacon".

Women cannot preach at Mass. They may be able to give a speech in some non-liturgical function (although what that function might be, I cannot fathom), but they cannot preach at Mass.

If you can come up with some occasion where preaching is needed in a church outside of Mass, then yeah, women could do the preaching, I suppose----but what's the point?

 

[BBCath]

Uh-huh. Now read further down in Canon 766: "with due regard for Canon 767".

And what does Canon 767 say? "Among the forms of preaching the homily is preeminent; it is part of the liturgy itself and is reserved to a priest or deacon".

Women cannot preach at Mass. They may be able to give a speech in some non-liturgical function (although what that function might be, I cannot fathom), but they cannot preach at Mass.

If you can come up with some occasion where preaching is needed in a church outside of Mass, then yeah, women could do the preaching, I suppose----but what's the point?

As a person reading this thread and finding this discussion fascinating...

A point of clarification please:

Are you asking (1) what the point of having a woman preach is or (2) what is the point of having someone preach outside of mass?

Also, can someone define the word "preach" in this discussion? I think that would help one understand better.

 

[StThomasMore]

Not good enough, Katherine. You provided me with documentation of the prohibition, but you still haven't provided me with proof of the repeal. All you did was simply repeat that it was repealed. Show me where Canon 1342 was officially repealed by Pope John Paul, or anybody else in the Vatican, for that matter.

interesting how the only thing I was able to find on this supposed nullified canon was at

The Code of Canon Law, 1917

Prior to John Paul II's repeal of Canon 1342, women, even women whose vocation is to be a preacher*, could not legally preach in a church while a layman could.

no, no, lol. If you read canon 1342, it says ALL lay people are forbidden to preach in the Church.


"Can. 1342 § 2 All laity are forbidden to preach in churches, even religious." (1917 Code of Canon Law)

Lastly, just because it isn't in the newer canon doesn't mean it was repealed. If you study canon law you will know that in order for something to be repealed they have to list in the newer canon why it was repealed and for what reason.

the 1983 Code of Canon Law make clear that later Canon Law abrogates earlier Canon Law only when this is made explicit and that, in cases of doubt, the revocation of earlier law is not to be presumed; quite the opposite:

Canon 20 A later law abrogates or derogates from an earlier law, if it expressly so states, or if it is directly contrary to that law, or if it integrally reorders the whole subject matter of the earlier law. A universal law, however, does not derogate from a particular or from a special law, unless the law expressly provides otherwise.

Canon 21 In doubt, the revocation of a previous law is not presumed; rather, later laws are to be related to earlier ones and, as far as possible, harmonized with them.

Canons 27 and 28 add to the argument:

Canon 27 Custom is the best interpreter of laws.

Canon 28 Without prejudice to the provisions of can. 5, a custom, whether contrary to or apart from the law, is revoked by a contrary custom or law. But unless the law makes express mention of them, it does not revoke centennial or immemorial customs, nor does a universal law revoke particular customs. Just like how when freemasonry was omitted for the newer canon law, people started to think freemasonry was accepted by the Church. It wasn't, and people got so confused that the Church had to say that the omitting of the newer Canon law was due to editorial issues and not because the Popes were actually omitting anything.

The Constitution read: " &#8220;The sacred celebration of the Word of God should be promoted .... especially which lack a priest, in which case a deacon or another man delegated by the Bishop can conduct the celebration.&#8221;

Thats a Vatican II document you realize, not from the old 1917 Canon law.

Maybe you should apologize to Wolsey for misrepresenting to him
​

 

[KatherineS]

Over 76 posts and I never once said the homily at Mass, I consistently said preaching in a church, which is what the canon concerns. Now to weasle out of your clear error, you bring up the homily at Mass.

And yes, if you believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, there is a point to preaching outside of Mass, at Liturgy of the Word, Vespers, Benediction, and in the fields, on the street corners and to every nation.

 

[Wolseley]

As a person reading this thread and finding this discussion fascinating...

A point of clarification please:

Are you asking (1) what the point of having a woman preach is or (2) what is the point of having someone preach outside of mass?

Also, can someone define the word "preach" in this discussion? I think that would help one understand better.

Number 2, justladyc. I guess I should clarify that for Catholics, we don't have a "sermon" the way you guys do; what we have is a "homily". The difference is that a Protestant pastor is free to choose his text and expound on that. For Catholics, the reading is regulated by a three-year cycle, and the priest must base his homily on some aspect of that Sunday's readings---either the first reading (usually from the Old Testament), the second reading (usually from the Epistles), or the Gospel for that Sunday. Since the cycle or readings is so closely regulated, and women cannot preach at Mass, I can't see where there would be a reason or occasion for anyone to preach, inside a church, outside of Mass.

Over 76 posts and I never once said the homily at Mass, I consistently said preaching in a church, which is what the canon concerns. Now to weasle out of your clear error, you bring up the homily at Mass.

A) You spelled weasel wrong.

B) I didn't bring up the homily at Mass, Canon 767 did. You left the occasion deliberately vague---in part, I suspect, to give the impression that a woman could stand up after the Gospel reading and preach while the priest sits down and cleans his fingernails.

But wishful thinking don't make it so.

And yes, if you believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, there is a point to preaching outside of Mass, at Liturgy of the Word

The Liturgy of the Word is part of Mass, dear.

Vespers

My breviary clearly indicates that a short homily may follow the reading at Vespers, and as I already indicated in Canon 767, the homily is reserved to the priest or deacon. The only exception that I can think of to this would be cloistered nuns in a convent, and such cases must always have the permission of the superior and the local ordinary.

Benediction

See below.

and in the fields, on the street corners and to every nation.

Street corners and fields are not "inside the church", now, are they?

Finally, I leave you with this small snippet from the General Instructions of the Roman Missal:

#66. The Homily should ordinarily be given by the priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to the deacon, but never to a lay person.

(bolding mine)