Why are SDA so paraoid of Jesuits?

MoreCoffee said:

Corruption is not always in other people is it?

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No corruption allowed on GT

Psa 53:3
Every one of them has turned aside;
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

Eph 4:29
Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification,
that it may impart grace to the hearers.


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LittleLambofJesus said:

No corruption allowed on GT

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I wish that were so. But reading some of the posts makes me wonder if all the corruption is in "the others".

Who knows ... it is all a mystery isn't it, LLoJ?

MoreCoffee said:

I wish that were so. But reading some of the posts makes me wonder if all the corruption is in "the others".

Who knows ... it is all a mystery isn't it, LLoJ?

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So is the mystery of what happened to the 3 towers Titus wanted left standing [along with part of a wall] which Josephus mentions in his discourse of the destruction of Jerusalem.......any ideas?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7833251/#post66024360

Originally Posted by kathleen ann

On another note: all the passages you refer to the immediate destruction of Jerusalem-THE WALL STILL STANDSs-the prophecy says not one stone will be left upon another Luke 21:6............
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The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Zeph 1:16
A day of trumpet and alarm/shouting on the cities, ones being fenced/fortified, and the lofty towers

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Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?"

After this he commanded that the city should be commanded razed to its foundations, excepting only the three lofty towers Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne, which he suffered to remain as evidences of its strength, and as trophies of his victory.

There was left standing, also, a small part of the western wall; as a rampart for a garrison, to keep the surrounding country in subjection. Titus now gave orders that those Jews only who resisted should be slain ; but the soldiers, equally void of pity and remorse, slew even the


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LittleLambofJesus said:

So is the mystery of what happened to the 3 towers Titus wanted left standing [along with part of a wall] which Josephus mentions in his discourse of the destruction of Jerusalem.......any ideas?

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Nope, does that have something to do with paranoia about Jesuits?

Rick Otto said:

That proves they have no secrets . Case closed.

Such is the depth of your thought on the matter.

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What have you provided which demonstrates that the Jesuits are involved in wild-eyed conspiracy theories?

It would appear the depth of your thought on the matter is confined to ex-Catholic sour grapes and teenaged rebellion against "authority."

Rick Otto said:

I suspect the receipt for a pack of gum would be like a novel for you.

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The receipt of a pack of gum for Rick Otto apparently equates to attempted poisoning by Jesuit assassins.

Rick Otto said:

...away from a focus on the nice guys who make up the largest part of this and other organizations like the masons, to where you can see the tiny few who have taken behind-the-scenes control.

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Have you asked Albion what he thinks about your assertion that a cabal has taken control of the Freemasons behind the scenes? It would be interesting to hear his take on that opinion.

Rick Otto said:

NWO globalism isn't the goal of the obedient soldiers. They are busy doing the hard work of creating a good PR presence in the places they want to have political influence.

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First of all, where is there any tangible evidence that there is any kind of umbrella organization such as the "NWO?" Also, how are you able to distinguish between their "obedient soldiers" and other political reactionaries who are trying to gain political influence?

Rick Otto said:

Counter-reformation didn't depend solely upon winning the hearts and minds of the simple masses with sound doctrine and superior social charity.

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What did it depend on, then? Surely you don't think the Magisterial Reformation and the Radical Reformation, especially, depended solely on those things by comparison?

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

So is the mystery of what happened to the 3 towers Titus wanted left standing [along with part of a wall] which Josephus mentions in his discourse of the destruction of Jerusalem.......any ideas?

........After this he commanded that the city should be commanded razed to its foundations, excepting only the three lofty towers Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne, which he suffered to remain as evidences of its strength, and as trophies of his victory...........

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MoreCoffee said:

Nope, does that have something to do with paranoia about Jesuits?

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Perhaps the Jesuits took 'em


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LittleLambofJesus said:

Perhaps the Jesuits took 'em

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Second volume of the Lord of the Rings is called The Two Towers. Maybe that's where two of them went?

MoreCoffee said:

Second volume of the Lord of the Rings is called The Two Towers. Maybe that's where two of them went?

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With God [and Hollywood], anything is possible........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod's_Palace_(Jerusalem)


To the north of Herod's Palace were the three immense towers,

• The Phasael Tower was the largest. It was named after Herod’s brother and stood 145 feet high.
• The Hippicus Tower was named after a friend of Herod and stood 132 feet high.
• The Mariamme Tower was named after Herod’s Hasmonean wife whom he had murdered. Josephus said that "the king considering it appropriate that the tower named after a woman should surpass in decoration those called after men." It stood 74 feet high and was accounted the most beautiful of the three.

Of the three towers, only the massive remains of the lower portion of the Hippicus Tower have survived (some authorities still think that this surviving tower base is actually the Phasael, not the Hippicus).

Model of Herod’s Jerusalem Palace-Fortress in the northwest corner of the Upper City walls.
The three towers, from L to R, are Phasael, Hippicus, and Mariamne. Just beneath the latter two, a portion of the reconstruction of the palace building itself is visible.

Albion said:

Of course it is not.

The fond idea that the Jesuits were expelled from European country after country--and Pope John Paul II went so far as to tell them to get out of politics in our own day--simply because they preached and build schools is laughable. Some notions that get posted here on CF we're inclined to call ridiculous, but this one is actually laugh-provoking.

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Yeah,... on second thought,... what was I thinkin' that educating politicians and other elites would serve an agenda of an army of gracious, counter reformationist soup servers.

Silly, laughable, me.

Rick Otto said:

Yeah,... on second thought,... what was I thinkin' that educating politicians and other elites would serve an agenda of an army of gracious, counter reformationist soup servers.

Silly, laughable, me.

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Maybe if you had a position based on fact that it wouldn't be quite as laughable, specially with an order that has had it's own rough history with it's patron church.

LiberalAnglicanCatholic said:

Maybe if you had a position based on fact then it wouldn't be quite as laughable, especially with an order that has had it's own rough history with it's patron church.

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There must be many millions of people who have read and benefited from the writings of saint Ignacio de Loyola and countless millions who have been inspired by the deeds and writings of saint Francis Xavier; these men were among the founding fathers of the Society of Jesus.


Saint Ignatius of Loyola


Saint Francis Xavier

LiberalAnglicanCatholic said:

Maybe if you had a position based on fact that it wouldn't be quite as laughable, specially with an order that has had it's own rough history with it's patron church.

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Maybe you wouldn't laugh if the fact was, the pope suppressed your order in 1776 in a brief called "Dominus ac Redemptor".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_the_Society_of_Jesus

Rick Otto said:

Maybe you wouldn't laugh if the fact was, the pope suppressed your order in 1776 in a brief called "Dominus ac Redemptor".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_the_Society_of_Jesus

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I did say the the society of Jesus had it's own rough history with it's patron church didn't I? Or did you just overlook that?

My own church history had been marred with monastic repressions and even outright removal for years afterwards. This still doesn't back up any claim the Jesuits in this day an age are some sort of secret society trying to interfere in politics or the like.

Mr. Otto, please see my reply to you in post #366. Thanks.

LiberalAnglicanCatholic said:

I did say the the society of Jesus had it's own rough history with it's patron church didn't I? Or did you just overlook that?

My own church history had been marred with monastic repressions and even outright removal for years afterwards. This still doesn't back up any claim the Jesuits in this day an age are some sort of secret society trying to interfere in politics or the like.

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Sure it does.
We've seen your own church's suppression of them.
We've yet to see their clean bill of health.

jesuit : http://truthmovement.com/
"The Associated Press reported today that the Vatican expressed “astonishment” when an Italian court rejected the release of Vatican bank funds seized by authorities for failing to comply with international money laundering laws.

Prosecutors claim that the $30 million seizure that occurred last month is due to non-disclosure of the transfer destination of large sums of money. Although the Vatican bank — Institute for Works of Religion — vows that it is working within international banking rules, the prosecutor found “exactly the opposite” was true. The AP reported:
Under the investigation, financial police seized the money Sept. 21 from a Vatican bank account at the Rome branch of Credito Artigiano Spa, after the bank informed the Bank of Italy about possible violations of anti-money laundering norms. The bulk of the money, euro20 million ($26 million), was destined for JP Morgan in Frankfurt, with the remainder going to Banca del Fucino.

The prosecutor's document suggests confirmation of Italian press reports that the probe was widening, looking into possible violations in earlier years linked to Italian corruption, in addition to the two most recent cases.

The document cites suspicious transactions involving checks drawn from a Vatican bank account at Unicredit bank in 2009, involving the use of a false name.
The prosecutors also cited a euro650,000 withdrawal from a Vatican ban account at Intesa San Paolo bank where the Vatican didn’t specify the money’s ultimate destination despite a specific request by the Italian bank.
The prosecutors called this “a deliberate failure to observe the anti-laundering laws with the aim of hiding the ownership, destination and origin of the capital.” The Italian banks have declined comment.
This is not the first major banking fraud case involving the Vatican. They were involved in one of the largest banking fraud cases in Italy following the mysterious 1980s collapse of Banco Ambrosiano, a scandal that was shrouded in murder and deceit, where:
Banco Ambrosiano collapsed following the disappearance of $1.3 billion in loans the bank had made to several dummy companies in Latin America. The Vatican had provided letters of credit for the loans.
While denying any wrongdoing, the Vatican bank agreed to pay $250 million to Ambrosiano’s creditors.
It appears that this new Catholic Church banking fraud scandal is not unusual for the Vatican, and probably a welcome distraction from sex scandals. In the end, a modest fine will likely be paid, or perhaps a low-level paper pusher will be sacrificed to the authorities. Such is the modern justice for large institutional sinners."

Rick Otto said:

Sure it does.
We've seen your own church's suppression of them.
We've yet to see their clean bill of health.

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Shall I name the number of monastic orders for men and women within the Anglican Tradition then?
By that logic, you assume that we haven't progressed since Henry VIII's persecution and abuses towards the monastic community

Originally Posted by Rick Otto

Maybe you wouldn't laugh if the fact was, the pope suppressed your order in 1776 in a brief called "Dominus ac Redemptor".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supp...ciety_of_Jesus
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LiberalAnglicanCatholic said:

I did say the the society of Jesus had it's own rough history with it's patron church didn't I? Or did you just overlook that?

My own church history had been marred with monastic repressions and even outright removal for years afterwards. This still doesn't back up any claim the Jesuits in this day an age are some sort of secret society trying to interfere in politics or the like.

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1. What you call "rough history" is a euphemism for "estinguished forever" and done by "the all the fulness of apostolic power" that the Pope has.

Thus to bring back the Jesuit order after that sort of for-ever extermination - is to undercut the power/authority of the Pontiffs themselves when they make statements in "all the fulness of their apostolic power".

2. It is not Seventh-day Adventists doing that - it is Pope Clement XIV.

Everything that is not flattering about Jesuit history cannot be blamed on some non-Catholic scapegoat.

3. If the Jesuit order of today is not eh Jesuit order of the 18th century - then prove it. What has been admitted to by the Jesuits as "Wrong"??

What agreement/charter/mission statement have they said they changed that would address Clement's long list of complaints?

in Christ,

Bob

Mama Kidogo said:

Don't give up. Just laugh it off.
I've met quite a few Jesuits. I have not yet met a militant one. Their older history may be but if so, they seem to have mellowed.

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New mission statement or charter after being "Forever extinguished" by the Pope?

News flash - the Pope himself extinguished the Jesuit order "forever" by "All the Apostolic power" that there is in the "seat of Peter" --

the fulness of our apostolical power, SUPPRESS AND ABOLISH THE SAID COMPANY:

Papal statement abolishing the Jesuit order – 1773. Clement XIV


"in the present case, we are determining upon the fate of a society classed among the mendicant orders, both by its institute and by its privileges; after a mature deliberation, we do, out of our certain knowledge, and the fulness of our apostolical power, SUPPRESS AND ABOLISH THE SAID COMPANY: we deprive it of all activity whatever
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And to this end a member of the regular clergy, recommendable for his prudence and sound morals, shall be chosen to preside over and govern the said houses; so that the name of the Company shall be, and is, for ever extinguished and suppressed."


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BobRyan said:

1. What you call "rough history" is a euphemism for "estinguished forever" and done by "the all the fulness of apostolic power" that the Pope has.

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I'm not a Roman Catholic therefore that arugment is immediately irrelevant and also misses the point that the Apostolic tradition Anglicans maintained wasn't cast off as soon as we left Roman authority. Please read Anglican history before coming to that straw hat argument.

BobRyan said:

Thus to bring back the Jesuit order after that sort of for-ever extermination - is to undercut the power/authority of the Pontiffs themselves when they make statements in "all the fulness of their apostolic power".

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Huh?

Care to expand on this point? Cause i have zero idea what you are getting at, since not only did the jesuits stay loyal to the roman church, but the current Pontiff is a Jesuit and why on earth would he undercut his own ex cathedra authority? This makes no sense.

BobRyan said:

2. It is not Seventh-day Adventists doing that - it is Pope Clement XIV.

Everything that is not flattering about Jesuit history cannot be blamed on some non-Catholic scapegoat.

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True however. There is a difference in criticism and outright misrepresentation of history and facts surrounding it. SDA's tend to fall into the second camp more often then not.

BobRyan said:

3. If the Jesuit order of today is not eh Jesuit order of the 18th century - then prove it. What has been admitted to by the Jesuits as "Wrong"??

What agreement/charter/mission statement have they said they changed that would address Clement's long list of complaints?

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Prove it...go to a Catholic mass presided by a Jesuit priest or actually read and critique Francis' work as pontiff thus far. Or read more books then Dan brown like conspiracy theory nonsense the SDA's refer to as "theology"

Rick Otto said:

Rhami,... back up, ...away from a focus on the nice guys who make up the largest part of this and other organizations like the masons, to where you can see the tiny few who have taken behind-the-scenes control.

NWO globalism isn't the goal of the obedient soldiers. They are busy doing the hard work of creating a good PR presence in the places they want to have political influence.

Counter-reformation didn't depend solely upon winning the hearts and minds of the simple masses with sound doctrine and superior social charity.

Jesuit political intrigue is no myth.

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ok, there was political intrigue

from looking at that time period, seems like there was a lot of political intrigue going around

the countries that were pushing for the suppression of the Jesuits were countries where the House of Bourbon was the ruling house.

Jesuits make a vow of obedience to the Pope, monarchies were trying to get more power over the Church in their country

we can see that go back and forth between Church and State for hundreds of years, the view that the State should be over the Church is called Gallicanism
Gallicanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am not saying that the Jesuits were lil goodie two shoes who never did anything to provoke others
but putting them in the same league as the NWO seems out there

they did have political problems


and you are right, the Counter Reformation (and the Reformation for that matter) played political games
but a lot of it was just preaching