Why are Rhema Pastors not held accountable?

[bobznew]

Unfortunately, you are absolutely right.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

They are accountable. If people choose to leave and quit giving the ministry will stop.

Your problem is not with Rhema it is with Christians who are choosing to still attend a church despite clear problems with the pastor.

My problem is with the lack of accountability.

It is not wrong to ask for Rhema, or any other church, to examine its procedures for dealing with wayward ministers. Like I pointed out before, I absolutely love Rhema, Kenneth Hagin, and all things Word of Faith. I'm as Word of Faith as one can get, and even am making plans to attend Rhema. So, I'm not bashing Word of Faith nor am I bashing Rhema. If anything, I'm asking some tough questions which no one should be afraid of.

The IPHC Pentecostal demonination in my area reviews ordination liscenses every year. Rhema would BENEFIT by adopting this practice. Is it any wonder that Rhema/Word of Faith has been dragged through the mud as one poster pointed out? Because wayward pastors, like the one I mentioned, are left 'ordained' and continue to cause damage to Christ's body. Maybe it's this area, but there have been several who have caused much damage through their immaturity. Yet, there are others who have accoutability practices in place and are thriving. Coincidence? I do not believe so.

One more measure of accountability is NOT a bad thing and I firmly believe that Rhema and their graduates churches would not suffer in the least. If Rhema ordains a person, they have to meet certain requirements. Periodically, that person should be more than willing to subject themselves to a review to see if they still qualify for ordination. Why would that be a problem?

Am I mad at the people of the last church? No. Just disappointed. Should there have been checks and balances in that church? Yes absolutely. Could there have been one more measure of accountability? Absolutely. Would it have prevented this minister from straying? Maybe, maybe not, but the point and the call is for more accountability. This is NOT a call to damn Rhema or anything they stand for. This is and has been an honest evaluation of the system in place and the current system could stand to have some improvements, in my opinion.

If folks want to villianize me for this desire to see more accountability, then so be it. God knows my heart in this.

 

[KingZzub]

I am not trying to villainize you Jedi, I have a lot of respect for you and your opinions. And I know your heart in this that you are not trying to damn Rhema and you clearly love not just faith but Kenneth Hagin and his ministry. If I have implied otherwise I did not mean to.

I think that a system of accountability would be a good thing, but I wonder if Kenneth Hagin senior ever thought that, he seems to just want to show love to everyone and let the Lord sift them out. However, the problem with accountability structures as has been seen throughout the charismatic church is that they quickly become the worst kind of cultic heavy shepherding. Remember when Rhema was going through its most explosive growth the fall out from the heavy shepherding and the Fort Lauderdale five was at its highest. Reacting against that must have seemed logical at the time.

My personal opinion is that every church of a certain size with a board of elders should be firstly run by the pastor at all times, but there should be a facility whereby the pastor is guilty of serious doctrinal or moral error that the elders can suspend or remove the pastor or put sanctions in place. I think churches should self-regulate not be regulated by others, certainly not by "apostles" etc. I believe in relationship not regulations. Maybe my view is naive, but I still think it is important to avoid regulating and fossilizing relationships wherever possible.

Blessings,
Ben

Rhema should not actively endorse anyone it does not know and continue to know, so possibly on that note we are agreed.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

I am not trying to villainize you Jedi, I have a lot of respect for you and your opinions. And I know your heart in this that you are not trying to damn Rhema and you clearly love not just faith but Kenneth Hagin and his ministry. If I have implied otherwise I did not mean to.

Thank you. I appreciate your comments here. I've been villianized before and I was perhaps a bit 'jumpy' about that sort of thing. My apologies for falsly labeling you or anyone else in this matter.

I think that a system of accountability would be a good thing, but I wonder if Kenneth Hagin senior ever thought that, he seems to just want to show love to everyone and let the Lord sift them out.

I certainly can see where the 'love em all and let God sort em out' mentality can come from, but it's not biblical. We have clear biblical standards of how sin should be dealt with. Ignoring a problem is NOT the way to handle any problem. I'm all for love, but I'm all for loving correction as well.

However, the problem with accountability structures as has been seen throughout the charismatic church is that they quickly become the worst kind of cultic heavy shepherding. Remember when Rhema was going through its most explosive growth the fall out from the heavy shepherding and the Fort Lauderdale five was at its highest. Reacting against that must have seemed logical at the time.

Understandable. Clearly the boundries between control and freedom are diffucult to maintain. On one hand you have too much control and the church is useless and bound in chains, on the other you have too much freedom and pastors stealing wives. Perhaps this battle for the 'middle of the road' will continue until Christ's return.

My personal opinion is that every church of a certain size with a board of elders should be firstly run by the pastor at all times, but there should be a facility whereby the pastor is guilty of serious doctrinal or moral error that the elders can suspend or remove the pastor or put sanctions in place.

I am firmly in agreement with you there. The trick is getting board members that have a backbone and are willing to confront the Pastor if he does get off track.

I think churches should self-regulate not be regulated by others, certainly not by "apostles" etc.

Certainly. I'm with you there, but when the church board is in the pastor's pocket, there might be room for another accoutability party.

I believe in relationship not regulations.

I'm for both as long as the regulations are Scripture.

Maybe my view is naive, but I still think it is important to avoid regulating and fossilizing relationships wherever possible.

I believe both are possible. Difficult, but possible.

Rhema should not actively endorse anyone it does not know and continue to know, so possibly on that note we are agreed.

That's the word I've been looking for. Endorse.

Rhema puts its 'endorsement' on a minister when they place that ministers name in their magazine. For the life of me I couldn't get that said earlier.

That said, I agree 100%. Rhema should not actively endorse anyone it does not know and CONTINUE TO KNOW. Agree agree agree. Yes and amen.

 

[lismore]

Jedi

Maybe the Lord is revealing things to you for a future purpose.

God works all things for the good.

Maybe one day you will be a leader, then having seen what you have seen you will be a leader of a better calibre.

 

[KingZzub]

Jedi,

I don't believe in everything he is saying but www.brothermel.com talks about some of the difficulties he has had with accountability in Word Faith circles. I don't know the right article so you will have to have a look through the site.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

Jedi

Maybe the Lord is revealing things to you for a future purpose.

God works all things for the good.

Maybe one day you will be a leader, then having seen what you have seen you will be a leader of a better calibre.

I've certainly learned the value of accountability! lol.

Two things that my current pastor does that helps him and others in the church avoid giving place to the devil are these:

1) He refuses to meet with a woman alone. Ever.

2) Anything having to do with money of the church, two people are always involved. No one is ever left alone with the 'bag' so to speak.

These seem to be two of the biggest areas where churches fail. And these two simple rules avoid those biggest issues completely. If a pastor is meeting with one of the opposite sex, there is always someone else present. Either his wife, or someone from the church staff. The doors are always left open and there is no chance given for the flesh to run rampant from either the pastor or who he is meeting with.

I know of one church that insisted on having windows on thier doors so everyone could look in any time and see what the pastor was doing. Not that folks were always looking for sin, but they took their responsibilities seriously enough to realize that they 'could' fail and were doing all they could to avoid doing so.

The money issue speaks for itself.

 

[KingZzub]

Absolutely true. It is so important to have these things in place all the time and have no exceptions. Sometimes we get into pride which leads to destruction: Religious Pride - Tree of Life Church, London

 

[Always in His Presence]

Call 1-918-258-1588 - follow the automated directory to the Rhema Alumni Association.

Ask to speak directly with Doug Jones. He is EXTREMELY busy, but he will return your call.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

A curious update concerning the church I brought up in this thread. A friend of that church sent me a message by facebook this morning and informed me that the church has closed its doors.

It took over six years for it to happen, but the sin of this pastor has finally caught up with him. Maybe the folks who advocate 'leave it alone' have a point.

I feel so bad for the people who now have to search for another church. I know that pain and how hard it is. These sheep have suffered so much and now they will suffer a little bit more. I hope they all find a church that will love them and welcome them in and begin the healing process in thier hearts and lives.

 

[lismore]

Not meaning this as a criticsm, but my experience of Pentecostal WOF churches they appoint leaders who look good on the surface. If you have a prestigious job and are bombastic, you're more than likely to get in.

Man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.

We should be appointing people based on their hearts, not on what kind of car they drive.

Then when good hearted people are counting the money, or speaking to women, wierd accoutability measures are not required.

 

[KingZzub]

It is true Lismore.

But it is not exclusively a Pentecostal problem.

 

[lismore]

It is true Lismore.

But it is not exclusively a Pentecostal problem.

Yes I agree. Good point!

I remember just about the last speaker I heard at Assemblies of God. It was a woman from London, now an AOG pastor I think. She was a little woman with a working class accent. She was on fire for the Lord and really preached up a storm about her missionary work at the airport. She would just pray with people at the airport and get them baptised in the Holy Spirit.

The next week the pastor announced we wouldnt be having her back. Not his 'cuppa tea'.

Hmmm I thought.

We need to be more comforatble with the people God uses, even if they break the mould of what we think the people God uses should be like.

 

[KingZzub]

Where is this woman? I want her to come and preach!!!!

 

[lismore]

Where is this woman? I want her to come and preach!!!!

She's In London, but that doesnt help much does it?

The next time I meet someone from that church, I'll try and ask if they recall the woman's name!

 

[KingZzub]

I am in London and she should be able to get to us easily enough. Sounds like a great testimony for my guys to hear.

 

[ccr9017]

New here so it may be awhile before I see this post or any other posts......

I'd like for Rhema pastors to teach this entire chapter, not just a verse, if it takes a year or several years so what.......
1 Timothy 6 (English Standard Version)

1 Timothy 6

1 Let all who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled. 2Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brothers; rather they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their good service are believers and beloved.

False Teachers and True Contentment

Teach and urge these things. 3If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, 4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 5and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain. 6Now there is great gain in godliness with contentment, 7for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world. 8But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content. 9But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.Fight the Good Fight of Faith

11But as for you, O man of God, flee these things. Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, 14to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. 17As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. 18They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, 19thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.
20O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called "knowledge," 21for by professing it some have swerved from the faith.

Grace be with you.

 

[KingZzub]

@CCR,

This is a Word of Faith forum for Word of Faith people to discuss Word of Faith. You may ask questions, but not post comments in something that is none of your business.

 

[KingZzub]

@ Jedi,

I am thinking about all this stuff. Our church is about 30 people now, and I am utterly unaccountable to a human. Well, not true, there is my wife, lol.

I want to set up a church board like discussed above, but there is only one man in the church I currently trust to be honest with me and not sugar coat things. You cannot have a board of one, because that just takes the power off the one pastor and puts it in the one board! So I have to wait until the church grows before I putrue a board in place, so I can put at least 5 people in the board.

It's a vulnerable feeling, but also freeing because there is no one I answer to but the Lord and it brings a beauty to your walk with Him.

 

[LinkH]

I don't see why Rhema doesn't do anything. But we have to keep in mind that Biblically, there was no organization standing in the place of 'Rhema' in the Bible. The man's church has an obligation to withdraw from him if he is in adultery and won't repent. He should be confronted by one, then two or three witnesses. Then the witnesses should appear before the church body. He should be given a chance to hear the church, and if he won't repent, then he should not be welcome among you until he does.

Paul said to deliver the fornicator in I Corinthians 5 over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.

It's hard to do this if someone has a church set up like a family business and writes all the checks. But if the congregation has to leave an empty building and all the money behind to obey the Lord, it certainly should.