Why are Rhema Pastors not held accountable?

[Jedi.Kep]

Yes, it's bold and in your face and it's time to deal with issues rather than sweep them under a rug.

Here's the story. There is a Rhema graduate who started a church in this little Pennslyvania town. I was there at the churches birth and attended there for 11 years.

Long story short, the Pastor of the church lost his wife to cancer. Horrible and tragic. Rather than take time off to grieve, the man continued to minister week after week. After about a year, rumors began to spread around the community about what this minister was doing with another man's wife. The Pastor essentially stole the wife of another man from the church.

It's easy to see what happened. Pastor lonely and missing his wife. Woman lonely and having maritial difficulties. Classic bait of Satan.

I did my homework and confronted this minister about it. He gave me the run around. Then after Sunday worship, this man announced what was gonig on and admitted what he had done and was going to continue to do.

I was horrified. I left the church. I made some contact with Rhema and a good friend of mine (who is also a Rhema graduate) contacted folks there as well. For the good of the man and the church, we both expected his credentials to be revoked. They should have been.

But Rhema did nothing and told my friend that they could do nothing. Not even revoke his credentials. This man's sin has spread to all the community. It leaves a poor witness on the church, Rhema, Jesus and Christianity, yet it is allowed to continue.

My question is simple. Why does Rhema allow blatent sin from those they have ordained? Why does Rhema do nothing? Can someone please explain to me why this man has not been removed from the Rhema listing of churches pastored by Rhema grads? Why has this pastor not been rebuked by someone in authority over him? Why does Rhema allow this cancer of actions to defame their own ministry?

Someone please explain this to me.

Disclaimer: I love Rhema and hope to go there someday, but this blemish needs to be dealt with.

 

[CindyisHis]

I can sure see your point. I'd like to hear what Rhema has to say as to why don't/can't do anything. It seems out of love for the brother and the people affected by his sin, someone would confront him.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

I can sure see your point. I'd like to hear what Rhema has to say as to why don't/can't do anything. It seems out of love for the brother and the people affected by his sin, someone would confront him.

Indeed. Don't get me wrong. I absolutely love Kenneth Hagin Ministries and would love to goto school there.

BUT....

Something needs to be said. SOME explaination needs to be given.

When I left that church, it was a very painful experience. I could no longer support that man and his sin. My continued attendance there showed that I supported the idea that it was okay to steal another man's wife. Simple morality demanded that I had to leave. I cannot support a pastor living in blatent sin. Why does Rhema have that man and his church still on their list of churches pastored by Rhema graduates?

 

[goldenboy]

Does Rhema even credential people, or, does it just note that a graduate of their school may have gone there? They didn't in former times.

Best wishes,
goldenboy

 

[Jedi.Kep]

I talked with another Rhema Graduate the other day about these types of issues. Sadly he was involved in a similar situation many years ago.

It would seem that Rhema's policy is to back up their pastors. Much like the School siding with the teacher when issues arise. I don't have a problem with Rhema backing up their pastors and giving them the benefit of the doubt.

BUT....(there's that pesky little fellow again)

When a Rhema Graduate (or any other Christian minister) in a leadership position engages in willful and blatent sin, it MUST be dealt with. Integrity demands that it be dealt with. Jesus would most certainly deal with it and He is our example. The sin must be removed from the camp! Especially in cases like the one I mentioned above.

Step up to the bar Rhema. Set the standard high, as you should be doing. BE the example for others to follow.

 

[bobznew]

I understand them wanting to back up their pastors. But the problem with doing that is that they run the risk of hurting a lot more people in the process, because they are inadvertantly (in the minds of many at least) keeping a "stamp of approval" on pastors and teachers who may be seriously wrong, and/or in blatant sin. Not that we shouldn't have a forgiving attitude, mind you. But I agree that when it comes to people who are in positions of leadership and authority (preachers, pastors, teachers, evangelists, etc.), then we should probably put the spiritual safety (for lack of a better term) of the whole flock over that of just the shepherd.

If their policy is to blindly stand by their pastors, regardless of the situation, then IMHO they are risking not only seeing people hurt who are "under the watch" of that particular pastor, but they also run the risk of losing their own credibility as well. People will say, "Well, Pastor John Doe just ran off with the worship leader's wife and started a new church of his own with his new wife as co-pastor, and RHEMA continues to endorse him, regardless of his blatantly unbiblical and sinful actions." It wouldn't do well for RHEMA to put themselves in that sort of situation. Like it or not, there are some people who would then equate RHEMA with adultery. They would be wrong to cast such a broad judgment IMHO, but that doesn't change the fact that it WOULD happen.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

I understand them wanting to back up their pastors. But the problem with doing that is that they run the risk of hurting a lot more people in the process, because they are inadvertantly (in the minds of many at least) keeping a "stamp of approval" on pastors and teachers who may be seriously wrong, and/or in blatant sin. Not that we shouldn't have a forgiving attitude, mind you. But I agree that when it comes to people who are in positions of leadership and authority (preachers, pastors, teachers, evangelists, etc.), then we should probably put the spiritual safety (for lack of a better term) of the whole flock over that of just the shepherd.

If their policy is to blindly stand by their pastors, regardless of the situation, then IMHO they are risking not only seeing people hurt who are "under the watch" of that particular pastor, but they also run the risk of losing their own credibility as well. People will say, "Well, Pastor John Doe just ran off with the worship leader's wife and started a new church of his own with his new wife as co-pastor, and RHEMA continues to endorse him, regardless of his blatantly unbiblical and sinful actions." It wouldn't do well for RHEMA to put themselves in that sort of situation. Like it or not, there are some people who would then equate RHEMA with adultery. They would be wrong to cast such a broad judgment IMHO, but that doesn't change the fact that it WOULD happen.

Agreed Bob.

I was pondering this issue tonight and was thinking about "don't touch thine anointed". Could THAT be the reason Rhema doesn't speak out?

I was thinking about Saul chasing after David and how David was all bent out of shape for simply cutting off a piece of Saul's cloak. Could that deal be what Rhema is thinking about? Not wanting to 'touch' the Lord's anointed, but letting God sort them all out?

 

[Jedi.Kep]

A bump in hopes that someone from Rhema will give us a reason for the issues posted above. Thank you for your time.

 

[lismore]

Hi Jedi

In my experience of pentecostalism the pastor has the final say in all matters. There is no-one he can be held accountable to.

God Bless You

 

[pdudgeon]

you are talking here about earthly accountability.
according to your post the man did announce his actions publically, so the accountability and the decision about what action to take is rightfully left up to the elders of the church who hired him.

it would seem to me that Rhema is to be held accountable for the actions of it's employees and teachers and currently enrolled students. if there is a question about the awarded diploma being legitimate, then they would have a say in regards to what should happen.

But from where i sit the earthly responsibility for this mess belongs with the local church body.

now one more point of reference that you might not have thought of in relation to this matter.
there is biblical prescident for keeping the pastor on in such a case. it's found in 2 Samuel 12:1-23, Psalms 32:1-11, and Psalms 51:1-19

David was not taken from his throne for his adultery, but there was a price to be paid which God extracted from both he and his wife in the loss of their son, and also the subsequent loss of Absalom.

And so it was Solomon who inherited his father's throne. God delt with what had happened, and subsequently raised up a king the like of which has never since been seen, until Christ shall return.

Now if God can do that, isn't it also possible that He can handle this matter as well?

 

[CindyisHis]

you are talking here about earthly accountability.
according to your post the man did announce his actions publically, so the accountability and the decision about what action to take is rightfully left up to the elders of the church who hired him.

it would seem to me that Rhema is to be held accountable for the actions of it's employees and teachers and currently enrolled students. if there is a question about the awarded diploma being legitimate, then they would have a say in regards to what should happen.

But from where i sit the earthly responsibility for this mess belongs with the local church body.

now one more point of reference that you might not have thought of in relation to this matter.
there is biblical prescident for keeping the pastor on in such a case. it's found in 2 Samuel 12:1-23, Psalms 32:1-11, and Psalms 51:1-19

David was not taken from his throne for his adultery, but there was a price to be paid which God extracted from both he and his wife in the loss of their son, and also the subsequent loss of Absalom.

And so it was Solomon who inherited his father's throne. God delt with what had happened, and subsequently raised up a king the like of which has never since been seen, until Christ shall return.

Now if God can do that, isn't it also possible that He can handle this matter as well?

A lot of wisdom in this.

 

[mont974x4]

what is Rhema's role in the accountability and overseeing process? Really, what school maintains control of its students once they move on and take a pastorate? Biblically it is an issue for the church, not Rhema. I would say your frustration and concern are directed to the wrong place. Additionally, since you left, how do you think you can practically and rightfully involve yourself in the discipline process?


I am not trying to beat you up. I think it is high time we took sin seriously. The idea is to handle it properly according to Scripture.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

you are talking here about earthly accountability.
according to your post the man did announce his actions publically, so the accountability and the decision about what action to take is rightfully left up to the elders of the church who hired him.

it would seem to me that Rhema is to be held accountable for the actions of it's employees and teachers and currently enrolled students. if there is a question about the awarded diploma being legitimate, then they would have a say in regards to what should happen.

But from where i sit the earthly responsibility for this mess belongs with the local church body.

now one more point of reference that you might not have thought of in relation to this matter.
there is biblical prescident for keeping the pastor on in such a case. it's found in 2 Samuel 12:1-23, Psalms 32:1-11, and Psalms 51:1-19

David was not taken from his throne for his adultery, but there was a price to be paid which God extracted from both he and his wife in the loss of their son, and also the subsequent loss of Absalom.

And so it was Solomon who inherited his father's throne. God delt with what had happened, and subsequently raised up a king the like of which has never since been seen, until Christ shall return.

Now if God can do that, isn't it also possible that He can handle this matter as well?

Thank you for this explanation. This brings me much to think about and reconsider.

But I still have this nagging issue. Rhema still lists this pastor on it's list of churchs pastored by Rhema graduates. Someone gets the Word of Faith, visits this wayward pastor living fully in sin, and learns from his example. What then? Who's accountable? It seems like Rhema is putting a stamp of approval on the man's actions by continuing to include him in that list. I have a problem with that and think Rhema should at the very least remove the man's name from their 'list'.

 

[pdudgeon]

Thank you for this explanation. This brings me much to think about and reconsider.

But I still have this nagging issue. Rhema still lists this pastor on it's list of churchs pastored by Rhema graduates. Someone gets the Word of Faith, visits this wayward pastor living fully in sin, and learns from his example. What then? Who's accountable?

both the pastor for his lack of leadership and the man for going against the Word of God. In that sense (if it happened) it would be no different than the judgement of Jesus against the Pharaisees who made and taught rules that they themselves could not keep. But here again we need to remember that Jesus as the Son of God had the authority to judge these priests. And another thing to consider--they did have time to change. his judgement at that point was not final.

It seems like Rhema is putting a stamp of approval on the man's actions by continuing to include him in that list. I have a problem with that and think Rhema should at the very least remove the man's name from their 'list'.

no, it's not. Rhema's responsibility and accountability ends when the man graduated. Rhema says the man matriculated and graduated from their school and is pastoring at XYZ church. And until he moves to another church that is the truth. the pastor himself is responsible for his own actions, in the same way that every one of us are responsible for our actions.

that case is no different than trying to hold a law school responsible if one of their graduates (let's say former president Richard M. Nixon) years later breaks the law. His alma mater didn't get involved, but the Senate and the House did, because they had the authority to do so.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

what is Rhema's role in the accountability and overseeing process? Really, what school maintains control of its students once they move on and take a pastorate?

That's what I'm trying to understand. In my current Pentecostal church, they must renew their credentials once per year and still meet the requirements of Christian morality. The minister is accountable to the church board and the denominations local board.

Biblically it is an issue for the church, not Rhema. I would say your frustration and concern are directed to the wrong place. Additionally, since you left, how do you think you can practically and rightfully involve yourself in the discipline process?

I've been involved in two other churches prior to this one which split right down the middle. I saw the damage that division causes and I truly didn't want to be the 'agent' of division in this third church. At the time I didn't feel like I had any voice (which I didn't) in that church anymore even though at one point I had served on the leadership team.

Knowing what I know now, I probably would have raised a few more issues with other people, but when the pastor came out of the closet, many of the 'board' members surrounded him with encouragement and handshakes rather than shock of such blatent sin. I knew then that anything I would have said would have made no difference.

I handled things the best way I knew how at the time and now that several years have passed, I don't know that I could have done anything differently.

It bothers me because I helped build that church and that ministry. That pastor was an anointed man of God and he threw it all away for the desires of the flesh. Perhaps I was more rankled over that than anything else. This was a man I loved dearly and still do to some extent today. My prayers go out for him.

I still feel that if a man has been ordained through an organization and that man fails to meet basic standards of Christian morality, then his ordination papers should at least be removed.

Like the one poster said, it IS the local churches responsibility to deal with the sin. No arguments there. But in this case, Rhema was well informed (by other people than myself) of the man's actions and his ordination papers should have been revoked at that point. I still stand by that and believe that Rhema is responsible for those they ordain.

I am not trying to beat you up. I think it is high time we took sin seriously. The idea is to handle it properly according to Scripture.

I'm sure you are not trying to beat me up. I don't feel beaten, so it's all good. I'm all for handling things properly, and one more vessel of accountability would not hurt Rhema pastors (or any other pastors) at all.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

both the pastor for his lack of leadership and the man for going against the Word of God. In that sense (if it happened) it would be no different than the judgement of Jesus against the Pharaisees who made and taught rules that they themselves could not keep. But here again we need to remember that Jesus as the Son of God had the authority to judge these priests. And another thing to consider--they did have time to change. his judgement at that point was not final.

I agree that the Pastor and man are accountable, but disagree that the accountability ends there. Rhema is indeed telling the truth that soandso is a graduate and pastors xyz church. But people looking for a RHEMA church find this wayward pastors name in their magazine and believe that this man is accoutable to Rhema and Rhema thinks he is okay. Like it or not, Rhema IS putting a stamp of approval on this pastor by including him in their list. For that Rhema is accountable. Even Kenenth Hagin would claim to weep over students he heard about who went astray saying "did I do something wrong? Did I teach them wrong? Could we have done anything differently to prevent this from happening?"

no, it's not. Rhema's responsibility and accountability ends when the man graduated. Rhema says the man matriculated and graduated from their school and is pastoring at XYZ church. And until he moves to another church that is the truth. the pastor himself is responsible for his own actions, in the same way that every one of us are responsible for our actions.

No one is saying that a man is not responsible for his own actions, but the school is also responsible for the ordination. More accountability is not a bad thing. More Rhema pastors would tighten up their ships if their ordination papers were on the line, and that would not be a bad thing at all.

that case is no different than trying to hold a law school responsible if one of their graduates (let's say former president Richard M. Nixon) years later breaks the law. His alma mater didn't get involved, but the Senate and the House did, because they had the authority to do so.

But there are checks and balances in place to remove one's right to practice law if they break the law. We are not talking about removing a diploma here, but removing the ordination that was given. A man who steals the wife of another man should NOT continue to be ordained by any Christian organization. Period. In my current denomination, they would pull a man's ordination if he engaged in such blatent and willful sin. Rhema should be no different. Ordination should be revoked in such cases.

 

[pdudgeon]

yes, i know that in many if not most of the larger organized denominations there is good oversight of the pastors throughout their careers. but here we are talking about one theological school that is not connected, and whose pastors are independent for the most part. sometimes the pastors go on to found daughter churches, and then form links with them.

it's just a difference in organization. in the independent churches the burden for oversight then falls on the church elders, and the watchcare on fellow pastors. those churches who choose the independant route gain a freedom not felt by the other denominations, but in doing so they sacrifice both the pastoral support and the accountability that can help to deal with situations like this.

we also see this same organization in car dealers. the major makes have their own service departments, trained mechanics, and warranties, while the independent dealers don't.
So while a car may cost less at an independent dealer, the buyer runs much more of a risk and responsibility for the maintenance of the car.

anyway, this is just something else that should be taken into account when you are choosing a seminary, as to how much watchcare you expect after your ordination.

 

[KingZzub]

They are accountable. If people choose to leave and quit giving the ministry will stop.

Your problem is not with Rhema it is with Christians who are choosing to still attend a church despite clear problems with the pastor.

 

[bobznew]

These are all good points. For me personally, I just wish there was some way around this without having RHEMA's reputation dragged through the mud. WOF'ers already have to deal with enough of that as it is just from a doctrinal perspective.

Then again, if someone wants to be small-minded enough to equate an institution with the specific sins of one of their graduates (or at the very least try to make an unnecessary connection between the two vis-a-vis the sinful behavior), then there's really not anything you can do in the first place, because their hearts are set to do it, regardless of how absurd it is.

 

[KingZzub]

Bobz,

The fact is people are who they are and people will use anything to pull down Word of Faith, no matter how hypocritical they are.

A Word of Faith pastor divorces or commits adultery - proves that Word of Faith are scum.

A Southern Baptist pastor and leader in the denomination divorces (Charles Stanley?) or commits adultery (Gordon MacDonald) - an opportunity to show more love and grace to our leaders.