Why are Christians so incredibly deceived about scripture?

[W2L]

COOL! Yes!

And be "CAREFREE" JOYOUS WITH ABANDON !
at the same time. Not unsober. Not unresponsible.
But rolling all of our care (every bit) onto HIS SHOULDERS,
as HE CARES FOR US.
We actively follow like active ALIVE SHEEP following the SHEPHERD,
and NOT worrying about the wolves, false prophets, false teachers, the traps the devil lays every day,
the economy, health, or even FOOD DAILY.
The gentiles (pagans) worry about such things,
but YHWH ELOHIM(GOD) knows all that we have need of
and HE has already said clearly that
HE made provision for all of our needs
perfectly and divinely (by HIS DOING).

Sounds good to me.

 

[W2L]

The Holy Spirit can only work with raw material. He cannot give you knowledge you don't already possess. For example, the Holy Spirit can't reveal to you the background of Second Temple Judaism that explains the context of Jesus' arguments with the Pharisees, or the writings of Greek playwrites that Paul quotes, or the texts of the Church Fathers that explain that the Lord's Day is Sunday. You have to actually have an education to know those sorts of things.

O boy, not more Catholicism.

 

[giftofGod2]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8.

It does not say that we are deceiving ourselves if we say that we don't practice sin; if that were the case we would be deceiving ourselves if we said that we are born of God (see 1 John 3:9).

Christ is able to cleanse us from all sin and from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:7, 1 John 1:9.

And if after that is said and done, sin still indwells us, it does not preclude the possibility of the element of sin being made dead within us, so that it has no power over what we do or say (John 8:32, 1 John 3:5-9).

The redemptive work does not only consist of forgiveness for past, present, and future sins. It also has to do with the Holy Spirit working within us to make us new creations, wherein the old has gone, and behold, all things are become new! (2 Corinthians 5:17)

This newness of life has the possibility of practically going to the extent of a man being unable to sin anymore (1 John 3:9).

Also, the one who does the will of God abides for ever (1 John 2:17) the definition for abiding being found in 1 John 3:6.

He has perfected for ever them that are sanctified (Hebrews 10:14), and the apostle writes, we have been sanctified by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10:10).

This is not to say that we cannot be tempted. Jesus was tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. When we get born again we are made like Jesus (Romans 6:6, Colossians 2:11, 1 John 5:17, 1 John 3:5, Ephesians 5:30-32).

So then in the believer there is a restraint of the Holy Spirit so that although he may want to cross the line and sin against the Lord (as that is the nature of temptation--James 1:14), he simply cannot go there (1 John 3:9, Galatians 5:17). It is a perfect restraint given to him by his born of God nature (again, 1 John 3:9).

 

[-57]

Can I jump in here?

There is no way any human has the ability to be moral enough to be save themselves. Even Sister Theresa needed Christs cleansing blood, death and resurrection to save her soul.

We need to understand that the price or penalty for even one simple sin, is death. We cannot survive that. Christ defeated death. He willingly died for us as a proxy. This is how we have our debt paid.

In Matthew 18:27 we read of a parallel situation. The debtor owes 10,000 talents. A talent was 130lbs of gold. So, that's like 20,800,000 ounces of gold. At today's price, say $1,300.00 per ounce, that's $27,040,000,000.00.

So, the point Jesus is making is that the debt is unpayable.

That is what our debt is, no matter what you contrive, believe, pretend, conjure, fabricate, or dream of a way to save yourself..... it's impossible.

We all need Christ's saving grace.......period.

I couldn't agree more.
I was just asking those who believe in faith + works how much is required. I never reall get an answer from them.

 

[Widlast]

I couldn't agree more.
I was just asking those who believe in faith + works how much is required. I never reall get an answer from them.

There is no "formula", this is not legalistic krap.
The whole point is that just 'believing" counts for nothing. Everybody in Hell believes. You must DO SOMETHING with your belief, as in clothe the poor, feed the poor, visit the widows, etc. I'm sure you've heard something along these lines before.

 

[-57]

There is no "formula", this is not legalistic krap.
The whole point is that just 'believing" counts for nothing. Everybody in Hell believes. You must DO SOMETHING with your belief, as in clothe the poor, feed the poor, visit the widows, etc. I'm sure you've heard something along these lines before.

I see your belief as a bit self serving. Selfish so to speak. For instance you have faith then believe you need to perform works to get your but saved. It's all about you helping to save your self......on the other hand, why not work for the glory of God rather than trying to use those works to save your butt?

I see it this way....Salvation's byproduct is works. Not that works produce salvation.

 

[W2L]

I see your belief as a bit self serving. Selfish so to speak. For instance you have faith then believe you need to perform works to get your but saved. It's all about you helping to save your self......on the other hand, why not work for the glory of God rather than trying to use those works to save your butt?

I see it this way....Salvation's byproduct is works. Not that works produce salvation.

Perhaps it can be said also that some works edify us and others. Its for love, to edify each other.

 

[Meowzltov]

I see your belief as a bit self serving. Selfish so to speak. For instance you have faith then believe you need to perform works to get your but saved. It's all about you helping to save your self......on the other hand, why not work for the glory of God rather than trying to use those works to save your butt?

I see it this way....Salvation's byproduct is works. Not that works produce salvation.

Works is not a byproduct. That's like saying yeast is necessary to make bread and flour is a byproduct.

A working faith is what is necessary. A non-working faith simply doesn't save.

 

[Serving Zion]

it is important to read St. Paul in the comtext of St. James, who wrote that faith unaccompanied by good works is dead, and our Lord, who commanded us to perfection.

The answer is that we cooperate with God; if we embrace absolute humility the Holy Spirit will lead us to righteousness, but if we then boast of this or become inflated by pride, we lose it all.

Excellent contribution, thanks! Just take care to reinforce Romans 3:24 - righteousness is imputed by God's divine favour, not as a result of having worked towards, as the phrase "being led into" is suggesting. How might we acquire this favour? Certainly not by earning qualification as works of law will do, but by living in such way that makes Him pleased with us (ie 1 Corinthians 6:20, Romans 12:1). He is a person, after all.

What sort of things can we do, that will make Him pleased with us? eg, speak faithfully in representation of Him, not go watering down the gospel, making compromises to the definition of holiness, putting into practice the preaching that we give on His behalf, and that which we likewise receive.. and getting to know Him as a friend. He has so many prodigal sons, and He longs for their return.

 

[W2L]

Excellent contribution, thanks! Just take care to reinforce Romans 3:24 - righteousness is imputed by God's divine favour, not as a result of having worked towards, as the phrase "being led into" is suggesting. How might we acquire this favour? Certainly not by earning qualification as works of law will do, but by living in such way that makes Him pleased with us (ie 1 Corinthians 6:20, Romans 12:1). He is a person, after all.

What sort of things can we do, that will make Him pleased with us? eg, speak faithfully in representation of Him, not go watering down the gospel, making compromises to the definition of holiness, putting into practice the preaching that we give on His behalf, and that which we likewise receive.. and getting to know Him as a friend. He has so many prodigal sons, and He longs for their return.

Its for love that we work, and its by Gods spirit that we work. That's what I believe.

 

[Serving Zion]

Can you explain what you mean by the above section of your post?

Ah, yes, many people have received a false view of The Gospel, which presents salvation as a basic formula:

You have sinned, God's law says you must die, but don't worry because Jesus died in your place and if you believe it, then you will go to heaven instead of hell.

Which of course, is a true statement. But, in an evangelist's desperation to acquire more converts, they too often do not reinforce the necessity of repentance. This produces Christians of stony ground - for a while they receive the gospel with joy, but when trials or temptations come, they fall away. IOW, they are quickly lured back into sin, then to justify their sin while still calling themselves Christian, begin cherry-picking scripture and finding doctrines that give them a relief from the conviction of The Holy Spirit. These are those on the broad road to destruction, and those of 2 Timothy 4:3-4.

Hebrews 10:26-29 shows clearly that the gospel is the power to save - by taking us off the path where we can walk sinfully, and putting us on the narrow, difficult path where we must forever repent without blame, to remain "In Christ" and produce fruit of The Spirit (John 15:1-8).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"Be sober" is counted 5 times. That's one command not five

I didn't create that list of Commands or that website. The point is that there are more than two commands in the New Testament.


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[Serving Zion]

Its for love that we work, and its by Gods spirit that we work. That's what I believe.

Nice to meet you! I'm not sure whether you'd like my response - can you please explain why you have said this? Is there something I have said that needs correcting?

 

[W2L]

I didn't create that list of Commands or that website. The point is that there are more than two commands in the New Testament.


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Yes, more than two

 

[W2L]

Nice to meet you! I'm not sure whether you'd like my response - can you please explain why you have said this? Is there something I have said that needs correcting?

I wasn't trying to correct anything you said. I was just adding my opinion

 

[-57]

Works is not a byproduct. That's like saying yeast is necessary to make bread and flour is a byproduct.

A working faith is what is necessary. A non-working faith simply doesn't save.

You're somewhat correct.
Romans 9:10 and onward clearly points out your theological mistake.

10 Not only that,but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. 11 Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand,12 not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

The verse above clearly says works has nothing to do with obtaining your salvation...You've been elected for mercy before you've done any good or bad.

 

[Widlast]

I see your belief as a bit self serving. Selfish so to speak. For instance you have faith then believe you need to perform works to get your but saved. It's all about you helping to save your self......on the other hand, why not work for the glory of God rather than trying to use those works to save your butt?

I see it this way....Salvation's byproduct is works. Not that works produce salvation.

I see your view as a bit self serving. That once you accept what is blatantly obvious to anyone who is paying attention, you can sit on your laurels and claim that faith has saved you, without ever having to actually do anything.

You will note that all through the gospels Christ demands that people actually do things, not pretend they are holy.

 

[-57]

I see your view as a bit self serving. That once you accept what is blatantly obvious to anyone who is paying attention, you can sit on your laurels and claim that faith has saved you, without ever having to actually do anything.

You will note that all through the gospels Christ demands that people actually do things, not pretend they are holy.

It really annoys me when people like you show up trying to frame...demonize...the faith alone belief with strawman arguments.

Did you not read where I said "I see it this way....Salvation's byproduct is works. Not that works produce salvation." So, NO! a true christian will not sit on their laurels.

Salvations byproduct is works. Why is it you can't undertand Jesus performed all the "works" concerning salvation in your place? Now, here you're saying, Jesus what you did wasn't enough.


Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

2nd Tim 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God

Phillipians 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There are a lot of "laws" but ten commandments.

Only 9 out of the 10 Commandments are still valid today and they are not exactly the same because they are not enforced with any kind of death penalties.

Believers today follow the New Covenant and it's Commands and not the Old Covenant and it's laws.

Then, Jesus gave us two simple commands.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

Tell me, is there any of the 1,050 "commands" that you speak of that, if broken, would not break one of these two?

Just because the many New Testament Commands are based on the two greatest Commands doesn't mean you can ignore the many (or some how you do them all by default) in favor of doing the greatest two. Many of these Commands tells you specifics in how to love God and others. For example: Helping the poor, etc. is not necessarily loving your neighbor as yourself. Jesus says we are ministering to Him when we help the poor. Preaching is another form of loving. Feeding the sheep is another. Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. This obviously is more than the greatest two.

Oh and yes, I am aware of Romans 13:8-9. But this is about fulfilling the moral portion of the old law by keeping the 2nd greatest commandment. It is not talking about all the laws or Commands in the New Testament.

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[Widlast]

No amount of ranting on your part will change the fact that James pretty much kills the notion of "faith alone". I don't "demonize" the notion, I state what scripture makes plain "faith without works is dead", end of discussion. There are no end of folks who claim endless faith, but their behavior is no better than the heathen.

Here is where we have the disconnect, you claim that it is good enough to feel the part, I state that one needs to DO the part.