Why are certain answers avoided?

[JohnMarsten]

Several times have I asked the following question:


The Bible nowhere sanctions the use of intoxicating wine. is apparently a statement made by EGW.

Now the bible definitely includes alcohol as such.

I cannot see any sense in a bishop not drinking too much grapejuice (that goes for the deacon as well)

Even though it might be highly questionable from todays worldview, King Salomon advised to give wine to the depressed.

King David thank God for wine in one of his psalms

Most strikingly the Lord himself allowed for wine and strong drink to buy using tighes .

This clearly indicates to me that wine was actually sanctioned, with restrictions (we were never meant to be alcoholics) but it was sanctioned, We were actually to have fun from time to time.

Now I was wondering why EGW made that statement, I know some verses can be explained away with the grape juice theory but others difinitely cannot.

I asked the question many times, was EGW in error (there is clearly a discrepancy between her word and the word of God) was she lying and misleading or what? Is her word above the bible? I mean how can I accept that statement and tell other people who might ask me about my being abstinent that the bible actually never sanctioned the use of wine, never. I would clearly make a fool of myself, if people knew the bible well that is...

Sadly no one dared to answer that question, I adressed ECR personally (twice I guess). Is there something that I should know? Did EGW forbid answering uncomfortable questions? Is it as dangerous as discussing the personality of God (this I understand since EGW clearly forbade to touch the subject).

I would just like to know why this is being avoided?

 

[OntheDL]

Several times have I asked the following question:


The Bible nowhere sanctions the use of intoxicating wine. is apparently a statement made by EGW.

Now the bible definitely includes alcohol as such.

I cannot see any sense in a bishop not drinking too much grapejuice (that goes for the deacon as well)

Even though it might be highly questionable from todays worldview, King Salomon advised to give wine to the depressed.

King David thank God for wine in one of his psalms

Most strikingly the Lord himself allowed for wine and strong drink to buy using tighes .

This clearly indicates to me that wine was actually sanctioned, with restrictions (we were never meant to be alcoholics) but it was sanctioned, We were actually to have fun from time to time.

Now I was wondering why EGW made that statement, I know some verses can be explained away with the grape juice theory but others difinitely cannot.

I asked the question many times, was EGW in error (there is clearly a discrepancy between her word and the word of God) was she lying and misleading or what? Is her word above the bible? I mean how can I accept that statement and tell other people who might ask me about my being abstinent that the bible actually never sanctioned the use of wine, never. I would clearly make a fool of myself, if people knew the bible well that is...

Sadly no one dared to answer that question, I adressed ECR personally (twice I guess). Is there something that I should know? Did EGW forbid answering uncomfortable questions? Is it as dangerous as discussing the personality of God (this I understand since EGW clearly forbade to touch the subject).

I would just like to know why this is being avoided?

This question has been answered many times over the years. Did you forget the many questions asked by k4c in the past few months? I recall you were here during that time.

 

[JohnMarsten]

This question has been answered many times over the years. Did you forget the many questions asked by k4c in the past few months? I recall you were here during that time.

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[Contented]

John,

There are other things in the bible that the SDA constitute as sin, such as wearing of jewellry. I think that people need to have a balance or as the bible say self control. To go overboard in ANYTHING IS SIN. I would like people to focus on the things that are important. The words of Christ is what I concentrate on.

The things that defile a person

For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” Mark 7:15-23


Below is something I found interesting.
" Salvation is called by the prophet Isaiah as something so beautiful it is comparable to bridal jewelry (Isa 61:10). The prophet also speaks of God restoring Israel’s sons and so that all nations would see them like ornaments on a necklace (Isaiah 49:16-18). A parents instruction as considered as beautiful as ornaments (Prov 2:7-9, Prov 3:21-22) Good and timely words are also considered as good as jewelry (Prov 25:11-12) The book of Solomon is filled with the use of ‘jewelry’ as identifying something that is beautiful, often in allegorical form (Song 1:10-11, Song 4:9, Song 5:10-12, Song 7:1) God’s people are considered to be beautiful like jewels in a crown (Zech 9:16). Jewelry is impossible to forget for a bride and when Gods people forget Him it is as bad as a bride forgetting her ornaments (Jer 2:32).
This by far is the most comprehensive allegorical passage noting many types of body ornaments, such as bracelets, nose rings, earrings and necklaces, all of which God Himself says He put on Israel as a symbol of the blessing He gave to the nation. (Ezekiel 16:5-17)
Jewelry is used as a symbol of wealth but it is not to be used to in honoring the rich above the poor. (James 2:2)
Jewelry and ornaments are always associated with beauty or splendor. However, this is exactly where 1 Tim. 2:9-10 and 1 Pet. 3:3-5 play a weighty role. These passages, especially aimed at women, don’t condemn jewelry but they do condemn our fallen attitude towards beauty. It’s largely due to our twisted perception of beauty that many of the early church fathers spoke against ornaments. Its normal and good for girls/women to want to be beautiful, but the fascination with appearances can often become prideful and idolatrous. Instead of recognizing Gods standard of beauty, namely being inwardly submissive and humble, it’s easy to give in to a prideful standard of outward beauty and then idolize that feeling of being adored. I know of many girls who wouldn’t dare leave the house without spending two hours of dabbling with their appearance, that does not show beauty, it speaks of either low self esteem or pride, maybe both. In both of the passages above, the apostles speak to all women and girls to tell them that clothes, hair, & jewelry don’t define beauty, they are merely trinkets. If you don’t have humility and gentleness in you, then no amount of pampering your outside will make up for it. In fact, if you lack inward beauty, indulging of your outside will likely make things worse. Furthermore, some types or styles of ornaments can be associated and complimented with excessive sensuality or provocative dress, these are definitely not helpful to becoming a gentle and humble young woman.

Status is another issue. James speaks of rings being a status symbol. Our dress including jewelry is often an indication of our identity, describing to the world who we are. (Or who we think we are.) I spent my teenage years re-learning everyday where my place in the social ladder was. A large part of this social hierarchy and devaluing of people “below you” is helped in part by expensive jewelry. I know of girls who are rejected, mocked, and excluded because they don’t dress the same or wear jewelry (and vice versa). Then both groups of these girls can turn around and state that they are “christian.” It pains my heart to see silly trinkets serve as a separation of classes and as a means of dividing and separating people. Whatever your preference is, whether you do/don’t wear jewelry, fighting with other girls about it, or even looking down upon them is not gentle or beautiful.

In addition when I see large amounts of money being spent on the decorations of one “christian” woman while others in this world suffer it becomes a hard pill to swallow. I don’t quite understand the feeling that comes from wearing earrings that can feed a whole village for many years, but I think that it can only be attributed to pride and selfishness. It is true that we buy many things that are equally expensive, like cars and computers. One way to help discern if we are selfishly wasting too much money on our selves is to evaluate the need of the item we are buying. If you spend thousands on a car, its normal because today’s society requires transportation. If you spend that money on earrings that you don’t need but are enamored with, you are basically spending money God gave you only to boost your ego. If God gives generously it is so that we would also be generous, and not only for our own appearance, but for the well being of others. It is hard believe a woman is gentle and humble if she spends all her time and money on her external appearance. In conclusion, be modest in all things. If you find yourself spending too much on external appearance and ornaments, it may be time to step back and reassess what you believe about beauty. As a guy I can say there is nothing more beautiful than a gentle and quiet spirit.

The temple itself was decked out in brilliant jewels and gold (Exodus 35:22-25, 2 Chronicles 3:6). The most precious things in Israeli possession, to be used in the Tabernacle or Temple were made of gold and finely crafted ornaments (Exodus 25:18, 24, 29, 31) The priestly Ephod itself was a gigantic necklace consisting of braided gold chains and a plethora of brilliant gems (Exod 28:15-27). Offering to God often included the giving of precious metals and ornaments (Exodus 35: 22-23, Num 31:49-50). Earrings were worn by the Ishmaelites and some given to Gideon as an honor offering, though out of these he made himself a golden ephod that became more of a curse than a blessing (Judges 8:24-27).

(Ask.yuriyandinna.com/2011/05/25/wrong-to-wear-earring)

 

[JohnMarsten]

John,

There are other things in the bible that the SDA constitute as sin, such as wearing of jewellry. I think that people need to have a balance or as the bible say self control. To go overboard in ANYTHING IS SIN. I would like people to focus on the things that are important. The words of Christ is what I concentrate on.

The things that defile a person

For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” Mark 7:15-23


Below is something I found interesting.

(Ask.yuriyandinna.com/2011/05/25/wrong-to-wear-earring)

Thanks for the quote.

You know, I changed my attitude many times over years on many different subjects. I remember once telling a former girlfriend she shouldnt wear jewellery... I could really kick myself for that! Nowadays I would be definitely more liberal and forgiving and probably even compliment her on her jewellery, but that the way it goes you have to make mistakes in order to learn... and I have learned the hard way....

Yes, beauty should come from within and women AND man shouldnt be TOO focused on it. On the other hand, why spoil beauty? why not enhance it if possible?

Nowadays, we find very hideous, satanic things in life, women and men wear outrageuous clothes, ugly piercings in places on their bodies you wouldnt expect, and I guess thats beautiful for some people... modest clothes can be nice, jewellery doesnt have to be too expensive, there just shouldnt be any man made rules, especially those of EGW who didnt even stick to them ...

 

[JohnMarsten]

just btw, SDAs are very clever in what they do. Jewellery is forbidden but I have seen many SDAs who drive very expensive cars, allright EGW somehow didnt foresee that and the bible also doesnt speak about it, but my rough guess is that it all fall into the same category...

I think everything is OK as long we dont surpass a certain level...

 

[JohnMarsten]

Politicians tend to avoid certain answers in order not to say the truth...

 

[stinsonmarri]

John and All Others:

The Bible never said that wearing jewelry was sin. If so please show me. Because the church in it primacy made mistakes does not give the Church the right to investigate their errors. What is wrong is wearing gold and diamonds or any expensive jewelry when the poor needs help. Also it is wrong to wear any jewelry to church on the Sabbath that includes a watch. Isa 58:13

Now as far a wine you must know that the Bible makes a different between wine that is fermented and wine that is not! Prov. 3:10; 20:1; 23:30; 31:5-7; Luke 1:15; 5;37-39; John 2:10; Acts 2:13; Rom 14:21; Eph 5:8; 1Tim 3:3, 8; Tit 1:7; 1Peter 4:3

As I stated the way you can tell the different from feremented wine is the color and new versus old. New wine is grape juice and old wine is ferement wine. Fermented wine is wrong and should not be used. Now your question has been answered and EGW is correct!

Blessing,
stinsonmarri

 

[reddogs]

John and All Others:

The Bible never said that wearing jewelry was sin. If so please show me. Because the church in it primacy made mistakes does not give the Church the right to investigate their errors. What is wrong is wearing gold and diamonds or any expensive jewelry when the poor needs help. Also it is wrong to wear any jewelry to church on the Sabbath that includes a watch. Isa 58:13

Now as far a wine you must know that the Bible makes a different between wine that is fermented and wine that is not! Prov. 3:10; 20:1; 23:30; 31:5-7; Luke 1:15; 5;37-39; John 2:10; Acts 2:13; Rom 14:21; Eph 5:8; 1Tim 3:3, 8; Tit 1:7; 1Peter 4:3

As I stated the way you can tell the different from feremented wine is the color and new versus old. New wine is grape juice and old wine is ferement wine. Fermented wine is wrong and should not be used. Now your question has been answered and EGW is correct!

Blessing,
stinsonmarri

You certainly hit the mark there stinsonmarri.....if its all about self and vices of man, thats not what Christ was about...

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

just btw, SDAs are very clever in what they do. Jewellery is forbidden but I have seen many SDAs who drive very expensive cars, allright EGW somehow didnt foresee that and the bible also doesnt speak about it, but my rough guess is that it all fall into the same category...

I think everything is OK as long we dont surpass a certain level...

You seem to make alot of connections with.. 'I seen/know/read about a SDA (EGW included) that did XYZ... therefore the church must be in error.' Truth is truth even when nobody is doing it. Christ is our example in all things. EGW just provided additional wisdom and insight. Would you say that Solomon was a false messenger of God because he said wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging? This is essentially the same thing that sister White said but she is somehow wrong but Solomon can be right.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I think everything is OK as long we dont surpass a certain level...

Thats dangerous ground brother... better to be on the side of too conservative than to play that game, imo. Do you trust your own judgement to know what that level we shouldn't surpass is?

 

[JohnMarsten]

John and All Others:

The Bible never said that wearing jewelry was sin. If so please show me. Because the church in it primacy made mistakes does not give the Church the right to investigate their errors. What is wrong is wearing gold and diamonds or any expensive jewelry when the poor needs help. Also it is wrong to wear any jewelry to church on the Sabbath that includes a watch. Isa 58:13

Now as far a wine you must know that the Bible makes a different between wine that is fermented and wine that is not! Prov. 3:10; 20:1; 23:30; 31:5-7; Luke 1:15; 5;37-39; John 2:10; Acts 2:13; Rom 14:21; Eph 5:8; 1Tim 3:3, 8; Tit 1:7; 1Peter 4:3

As I stated the way you can tell the different from feremented wine is the color and new versus old. New wine is grape juice and old wine is ferement wine. Fermented wine is wrong and should not be used. Now your question has been answered and EGW is correct!

Blessing,
stinsonmarri

you must be kidding... how old are you btw?

 

[JohnMarsten]

You seem to make alot of connections with.. 'I seen/know/read about a SDA (EGW included) that did XYZ... therefore the church must be in error.' Truth is truth even when nobody is doing it. Christ is our example in all things. EGW just provided additional wisdom and insight. Would you say that Solomon was a false messenger of God because he said wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging? This is essentially the same thing that sister White said but she is somehow wrong but Solomon can be right.

like I said everybody is trying to avoid the point...

connections? well, as human being we all make connections if not, our intelligence would be subpar...

sometimes I get the impressions that my connection may be too complex to follow, that can be my bad though

 

[JohnMarsten]

Thats dangerous ground brother... better to be on the side of too conservative than to play that game, imo. Do you trust your own judgement to know what that level we shouldn't surpass is?

Well, the word 'everything' was a bad choice I guess...

What I meant is that everything be spoiled, if we eat too much chocolate, drink too much wine, have too many wifes , everything can be played out, if we stick to certain rules we will make the most of it...

 

[ChrisCarol]

Well, the word 'everything' was a bad choice I guess...

What I meant is that everything be spoiled, if we eat too much chocolate, drink too much wine, have too many wifes , everything can be played out, if we stick to certain rules we will make the most of it...

Like Paul says:

1 Corinthians 10:23
All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

and the rest of the chapter.

Praise God He has given us all a mind to think with and His Spirit to guide us. Let us go forth in His understanding not man's.

 

[ricker]

You seem to make alot of connections with.. 'I seen/know/read about a SDA (EGW included) that did XYZ... therefore the church must be in error.' Truth is truth even when nobody is doing it. Christ is our example in all things. EGW just provided additional wisdom and insight. Would you say that Solomon was a false messenger of God because he said wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging? This is essentially the same thing that sister White said but she is somehow wrong but Solomon can be right.

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

They were obviously wrong about Jesus being a drunkard and glutton, but it is obvious Jesus never took the oath not to drink like John the Baptist did.


7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.
8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.” They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine.

Self explanitory. Jewish wedding celebrations use real wine, not grape juice.



Wine can indeed be a mocker, and strong drink raging. That's why moderation is taught.

 

[JohnMarsten]

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

They were obviously wrong about Jesus being a drunkard and glutton, but it is obvious Jesus never took the oath not to drink like John the Baptist did.


7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.
8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.” They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine.

Self explanitory. Jewish wedding celebrations use real wine, not grape juice.



Wine can indeed be a mocker, and strong drink raging. That's why moderation is taught.

I agree with you. The whole grape juice theory is absolutely ridiculous.

Like I said many times, I dont advocate the use of real wine, if somebody is weak let him better not try it. But lets not spread rumours about grape juice and make fools of ourselves...

EGW was in error when she said that nowhere in the bible is the use of real wine sanctioned. Yet so many people cant realize that, they rather believe in EGW. It seems as if EGW has taken the ability from them to take the bible at face value when it has to be taken at face value...

 

[ricker]

I agree with you. The whole grape juice theory is absolutely ridiculous.

Like I said many times, I dont advocate the use of real wine, if somebody is weak let him better not try it. But lets not spread rumours about grape juice and make fools of ourselves...

EGW was in error when she said that nowhere in the bible is the use of real wine sanctioned. Yet so many people cant realize that, they rather believe in EGW. It seems as if EGW has taken the ability from them to take the bible at face value when it has to be taken at face value...

To be fair Adventists are not alone in the grape juice thing. I heard Jimmy Swaggart on the radio espousing the same thing. Good company to keep?

 

[JohnMarsten]

To be fair Adventists are not alone in the grape juice thing. I heard Jimmy Swaggart on the radio espousing the same thing. Good company to keep?

The general intention behind doesnt seem so bad, its good for alcoholic who seek company of non-drinkers... but still... grape juice? vinegar?

 

[ricker]

The general intention behind doesnt seem so bad, its good for alcoholic who seek company of non-drinkers... but still... grape juice? vinegar?

Hear ya.