Why are Abrahamic religions so quick to condemn Poly/Pantheistic religions as Satanic

razeontherock

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No, I'm pretty sure the dating of Daniel is based on the actual events recorded there. For instance the reference to the Abomination of Desolation refers to the Seleucids desecration of the Temple, something that resulted in the Maccabean Revolt.

It doesn't seem very scientific to base a dating method on an obscure interpretation of Holy writ, especially since it turns around and refers to the same thing in future tense. The elements of language you mention, seem to reflect the time the copies that are being examined were written.
 
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razeontherock

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Assuming that Moses was a historical person, rather than a cultural myth (with a tiny historical core) like King Arthur.

I'm pretty sure Jews are used to their entire history being reduced to insignificance by onlookers. (Doesn't seem like enlightened behavior to me though)
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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I'm pretty sure Jews are used to their entire history being reduced to insignificance by onlookers. (Doesn't seem like enlightened behavior to me though)

You don't want to play that card, my friend.
Aiming covert allegations of anti-semitism at a German?
Very. Bad. Idea.

Our relationship might have been somewhat strained recently, and I suppose that I might be to blame for that to a large degree (although I do not feel too apologetic about calling you out on defending the Canaanite genocide and its aftermath) - but obliquely associating me with the Nazis by suggesting that this is about belittling "the Jews"?

That's not a slap in the face: that's coughing up phlegm, spitting it in my face, following that up with a backhand slap and then dumping a garbage can filled with rotting offal over my head.

I'll cut you some slack, this one time. But do that again, and the gloves come off.

Now, the historicity of the Exodus and Moses is still debated - yet the options that are on the table only range from "a small historical core with loads of legends and mythology added" (IOW, King Arthur) to "complete fictions conceived during the Persian period or even later" (IOW, Robin Hood).

A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness, and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit". A number of theories have been put forward to account for the origins of the Israelites, and despite differing details they agree on Israel's Canaanite origins.The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite, and almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether even this is an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute.
 
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razeontherock

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Our relationship might have been somewhat strained recently, and I suppose that I might be to blame for that to a large degree

Does that almost smell like an apology?

calling you out on defending the Canaanite genocide and its aftermath

No Jane. I will give you credit for being consistent, but you are unable to perceive a person genuinely struggling. Numbers 31 is deeply disturbing, and beyond troubling. I don't pretend otherwise, and readily admit there are no easy answers, as evidenced for the wide array of answers I myself have presented. I have also met G-d face to face (so to speak) and do not allow myself the luxury of veiling myself from the idea of His impending Judgment, which is all too easy to do.

) - but obliquely associating me with the Nazis by suggesting that this is about belittling "the Jews"?

No. I did NOT do that. I do recognize how you could see it that way, point out that was not my intention, and if it's any solace the Romans beat our joint German heritage to that punch by a long while.

If you took my statement at face value you would not have been offended, but I will offer an apology anyway.

That's not a slap in the face: that's coughing up phlegm, spitting it in my face, following that up with a backhand slap and then dumping a garbage can filled with rotting offal over my head.

^_^ While I have no idea what offal might be, the restaurant chain Waffle House is widely known as "the awful waffle." Would rotting waffles do? ^_^

Now, the historicity of the Exodus and Moses is still debated - yet the options that are on the table only range from "a small historical core with loads of legends and mythology added" (IOW, King Arthur) to "complete fictions conceived during the Persian period or even later" (IOW, Robin Hood).

No more colorful creativity? Oh well, back to serious dialogue then. It doesn't really amaze me how many C's feel that their Faith is attacked by such things, as much so as if there were invading hordes of Moors. You may have missed that I feel it's vitally important for a C to see what's going on here, and that it is THE primary thread of revelation G-d has shown me? (Starting long before I had any clue about any historical problems)

G-d speaks to us through the OT. Having ears to ear, I would like to know what He is saying to us in that fashion. I have caught glimpses, and they are more Glorious than anything in the NT, and absolutely vital to understanding the NT.

A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness, and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit".

Now factor in looking at the wrong time period AND the wrong area for the Exodus. No, that's not like coming up with solid evidence all can see, but it does lead to some pretty obvious conclusion. You might find it amusing that my younger son's first grand ambition in life (well before the age of 10) was to save the world by being an Egyptologist, having read widely on the subject and concluded "everyone" merely sought their own fame and fortune, rather than the truth.

A number of theories have been put forward to account for the origins of the Israelites, and despite differing details they agree on Israel's Canaanite origins.The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite, and almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether even this is an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute.

I have seen you post this same info many times, and I do not discount your scholarship. I have also seen evidence that you do have a Spirituality, and it dumbfounds me that you don't apply that here?

Abraham was not the first Jew. Judaism didn't spring up til 430 years later, according to the tale. What you are referring to is pre-Moses, and almost assuredly pre-Abraham - at least with the way things are being dated currently. (And I'm not at all sure those dates are even remotely correct)

So even if everything you wrote here were 100% accurate, it would have NO bearing on Judaism whatsoever. I fail to see why you don't take this into account. We know Abraham came from idolaters, and that as soon as Moses took off for a mere 40 days, Israel reverted to idolatry. And did so often throughout their history. (This also speaks VOLUMES about whom G-d chooses, along the lines of "whosoever will, let Him / her come")
 
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Booko

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^_^ While I have no idea what offal might be, the restaurant chain Waffle House is widely known as "the awful waffle." Would rotting waffles do? ^_^

Offal = entrails, Raze.

As for the Waffle House, here in the city of its birth it's sometimes called Awful House. Just so's you knows.
 
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Booko

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Are we even on the Original topic anymore? :scratch:

No, doesn't seem like it.

We can return to that though. Do you still think all Abrahamic religions are quick to condemn poly/pantheistic religions as Satanic?

Because as I think I said earlier, at most maybe half of them do. I don't think Judaism cares so much whether Gentiles worship idols or not. Judaism cares of Jews worship idols, obviously. And Baha'is aren't in the habit of calling other religions Satanic anyway.

At most that leaves us with Christianity and Islam. :confused:
 
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GeminiMoon

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No, doesn't seem like it.

We can return to that though. Do you still think all Abrahamic religions are quick to condemn poly/pantheistic religions as Satanic?

Because as I think I said earlier, at most maybe half of them do. I don't think Judaism cares so much whether Gentiles worship idols or not. Judaism cares of Jews worship idols, obviously. And Baha'is aren't in the habit of calling other religions Satanic anyway.

At most that leaves us with Christianity and Islam. :confused:

I have pretty much come to the conclusion that it depends entirely on the person you ask, or the denomination you ask. Answers are very different.

But, i'd rather people talk about the intended discussion of this thread.
 
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razeontherock

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I have pretty much come to the conclusion that it depends entirely on the person you ask, or the denomination you ask. Answers are very different.

But, i'd rather people talk about the intended discussion of this thread.

I don't see any way to actually learn something about various world religions and pretend satan was their inspiration. I am content with the Baha'i obscure comment that there are some (rare) exceptions
 
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AskTheFamily

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I know from Islamic point of view, deviance is attributed towards Satan, so naturally the greatest deviance which is associating towards God from Islam's point of view, is also from Satan.

Why is it seen as deviance, well because the "Fitra" (nature) is created upon Oneness of God.
 
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BruceDLimber

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I don't see any way to actually learn something about various world religions and pretend satan was their inspiration. I am content with the Baha'i obscure comment that there are some (rare) exceptions

With the caveat that you have this exactly backward!

The Baha'i scriptures ENDORSE almost all religions as legitmate and of God!

They further state specifically that the few exceptions of this were the result of human perversity (quote upon request).

Nor, BTW, is this statement the least "obscure": you can look it up right there in our scriptures.

Peace, :)

Bruce
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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The Baha'i scriptures ENDORSE almost all religions as legitmate and of God!

Which religions are notconsidered legitimate, then? I'd be interested to know where contemporary Baha'i draw the line.
 
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Booko

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Which religions are notconsidered legitimate, then? I'd be interested to know where contemporary Baha'i draw the line.

There is no list and to be honest no one discusses the subject that I've noticed. It's not our business as a religion to judge whether other religions are legitimate or not. Our purpose is to draw people closer together -- not to divide them.

Among the basic human rights, the right to follow one's conscience in matters of religion and belief is undoubtedly one of the most cherished, so much so that people have been willing to endure the severest trials and even to lay down their lives rather than to surrender this fundamental right. And yet throughout history this human right has been frequently and openly violated. Strange indeed that the violators are most often those who consider themselves faithful followers of a religion. Their willingness to trample on the rights of those who believe differently than they do may be best understood as the consequence of two fundamental misconceptions widely perpetrated in the name of religion. The first is that the various religions are separate and competing entities, and that for one religion to be true the others must be false. The second is that certain doctrines and practices held to be false are threatening and must, therefore, be attacked.

The Bahá'í International Community would like to suggest that a careful reconsideration of both notions is long overdue. Some fresh thinking on the subject would not only make religious tolerance more palatable to those with strongly held religious beliefs, but it could lead to a genuine appreciation of the various expressions of faith.

(Baha'i International Community, 1995 Jan 10, Promoting Religious Tolerance)
If you insist I can give you my personal opinion about a group or two that I consider...dubious. But to dwell on that sort of thing seems pretty much a waste of time to me.
 
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razeontherock

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I know from Islamic point of view, deviance is attributed towards Satan, so naturally the greatest deviance which is associating towards God from Islam's point of view, is also from Satan.

Why is it seen as deviance, well because the "Fitra" (nature) is created upon Oneness of God.

What does "associating towards God" mean? And wouldn't the dichotomy of the terms jamal and jalal (sic? Power vs beauty) be seen by some as violating this oneness?
 
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razeontherock

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With the caveat that you have this exactly backward!

The Baha'i scriptures ENDORSE almost all religions as legitmate and of God!

They further state specifically that the few exceptions of this were the result of human perversity (quote upon request).

No, I didn't get it backwards at all; this is exactly what I said. Sorry if somehow I made that confusing.
 
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razeontherock

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There is no list and to be honest no one discusses the subject that I've noticed. It's not our business as a religion to judge whether other religions are legitimate or not. Our purpose is to draw people closer together -- not to divide them.

If you insist I can give you my personal opinion about a group or two that I consider...dubious. But to dwell on that sort of thing seems pretty much a waste of time to me.

:thumbsup: Agreed 100%. To look at the bloodletting and human sacrifice components of the Incas for example, then to see their artwork (some of) which is clearly demonically inspired. To me the point is this type of thing is self-defeating and therefore rare, which is the longer way of saying "to the Glory of God."
 
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Booko

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What does "associating towards God" mean?

As in "joining partners with God" I think.

And wouldn't the dichotomy of the terms jamal and jalal (sic? Power vs beauty) be seen by some as violating this oneness?

Why? Power and beauty are both attributes of God.
 
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Booko

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:thumbsup: Agreed 100%. To look at the bloodletting and human sacrifice components of the Incas for example, then to see their artwork (some of) which is clearly demonically inspired. To me the point is this type of thing is self-defeating and therefore rare, which is the longer way of saying "to the Glory of God."

Oh I was thinking more of groups that exist in our lifetime.

The Incas at least did build a civilization and made progress in areas like agriculture. (Thanks for those taters, you Incans. :D) Their architecture was pretty keen. And they were doing surgery on the skull when Europeans were still bleeding people. I think they did dental implants too, unless I'm getting them confused with a different New World civilization. I don't know what artwork you're referring to, sorry. Myself, I would not put the Inca in the column of "human perversity." Civilizations are not created from a source of total perversity.

Really, the yardstick Jesus gives in "by their fruits shall ye know them" does kinda work in a subject like this.

What was the "fruit" of something like the Jonestown group? People can look at the evidence and decide for themselves about stuff like that. And really it's better they do so than just take someone else's word on it anyway.
 
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