• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Status
Not open for further replies.

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,385
11,926
Georgia
✟1,097,581.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Now let us reject the traditions of man (Sola Scriptura):

“They worship Me in vain; they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.” You have disregarded the commandment of God to keep the tradition of men

Mark 7:7-8

Mark 7:6-13 is a case of Christ slam-hammering the supposedly sacred tradition of the magisterium of the one true nation church started by God at Sinai -- "sola scriptura"

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”


Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,385
11,926
Georgia
✟1,097,581.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
BobRyan said:
The non-Christians of Acts 17:11 "studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF the things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul --- were SO"


Hmmmm...

Is your argument against sola scriptura testing of apostolic teaching ... or is it against "having access to the Bible in our homes"??
 
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟473,721.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
So you ignored pretty much the majority of my post to tackle a strawman, there’s a difference between man made traditions and inspired tradition which Christ didn’t reject as per his own words:

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Matthew 23:2-3

Christ didn’t reject everything the Pharisees taught.
 
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟473,721.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Within the worship of a liturgical synagogue, or when the Apostles would read the scriptures during worship they would hear the scriptures and reflect upon them and teach them. Sola Scriptura has no historical basis and is absurd, read my previous long post that I posted in Sola Scriptura detailing why it cannot be true either from a scriptural or historical perspective.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I'll stick with what Jesus explicitly said. Jesus told us to listen to the Church. Jesus never said listen to the Bible.
...and yet He often referred his Apostles and others to Scripture for the authoritative answer to their questions or needs.

I'll stick with what Paul explicitly said.

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

Romans 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Romans 11:2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."

Galatians 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."

Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. (Here it is used as a synonym for Law which appears in both 21 and 24.)

Galatians 4:30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."

1 Timothy 5:18 For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."
 
Reactions: LoveGodsWord
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,518
2,680
✟1,048,051.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private

What is the Church today? When I got born again I didn't belong to any church.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
What is the Church today? When I got born again I didn't belong to any church.
Of course Jesus was speaking of his following when referring to "my church." He did not have any of today's denominations in mind when saying this, and certainly not to the exclusion of all other ones.
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
10,049
1,801
60
New England
✟616,444.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Good Day, Al

Just spent quite a bit of time looking over the post, I need to look up some of the ECF you have quoted.

Just to be clear there is nothing there that I find contrary to what I believe is the clearest presentation of the Historical view of Sola Scriptura as stared here:

"Well, we must begin by defining the doctrine under discussion this evening. And let me begin by defining what the doctrine of Sola Scriptura does not say.

First of all, it is not a claim that the Bible contains all knowledge. The Bible is not exhaustive in every detail. John 21:25 speaks to the fact that there are many things that Jesus said and did that are not recorded in John, or in fact in any book in the world because the whole books of the world could not contain it. But the Bible does not have to be exhaustive to function as the sole rule of faith for the Church. We do not need to know the color of Thomas' eyes. We do not need to know the menu of each meal of the Apostolic band for the Scriptures to function as the sole rule of faith for the Church.

Secondly, it is not a denial of the Church's authority to teach God's truth. I Timothy 3:15 describes the Church as "the pillar and foundation of the truth." The truth is in Jesus Christ and in His Word. The Church teaches truth and calls men to Christ and, in so doing, functions as the pillar and foundation thereof. The Church does not add revelation or rule over Scripture. The Church being the bride of Christ, listens to the Word of Christ, which is found in God-breathed Scripture.

Thirdly, it is not a denial that God's Word has been spoken. Apostolic preaching was authoritative in and of itself. Yet, the Apostles proved their message from Scripture, as we see in Acts 17:2, and 18:28, and John commended those in Ephesus for testing those who claimed to be Apostles, Revelation 2:2. The Apostles were not afraid to demonstrate the consistency between their teaching and the Old Testament.

And, finally, sola scriptura is not a denial of the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding and enlightening the Church.

What then is sola scriptura?

The doctrine of sola scriptura, simply stated, is that the Scriptures and the Scriptures alone are sufficient to function as the regula fide, the "rule of faith" for the Church. All that one must believe to be a Christian is found in Scripture and in no other source. That which is not found in Scripture is not binding upon the Christian conscience. "

As an Ex member of the Roman Church, I do find it quite amusing that a member of the Roman Church would try to use Scripture to prove anything....

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger : while commenting on the documents of Vatican II (article nine of Dei verbum), stated that “no one is seriously able to maintain that there is a proof in Scripture for every catholic doctrine.” See Joseph Ratzinger’s “The Transmission of Divine Revelation” in Herbert Vorgrimler, ed., Commentary on the Documents of Vatican II (New York: Herder and Herder, 1969), Vol. 3 Pg 195

I am willing to defend this view from Scripture and History.

In Him,

Bill
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,518
2,680
✟1,048,051.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Of course Jesus was speaking of his following when referring to "my church." He did not have any of today's denominations in mind when saying this, and certainly not to the exclusion of all other ones.

Some said Christian people are the Church, this is my belief as well.
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
10,049
1,801
60
New England
✟616,444.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married


Good Day, Al

Let apply some logic and reason to you use of the God breathed word ( BTW) it is the only thing we have that falls with in that category.

You Quote from Paul to the church in Thess: Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

Ok what exactly he tell them?
When did he tell them?
Whom did he tell it to?
Where they the only ones to receive such information from Paul?
You seem to suggest that this information is out side of Scripture, Ok I would like you to prove such assertion.

I would please like historical Primary sources from you that you use to establish these facts.

Also you misquoted John... Things Jesus did not said.

And there are also many other things which And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that should be written.

In Him,

Bill
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
What you've referred to here isn't tradition at all. It's a reference to the (presumed) authority of the teachers of the law.

Actual Tradition, as taught by the various Catholic denominations (RC, EO, OO, etc), conceives of a second stream of divine revelation (after the Bible) that is equally as authoritative as the Bible. It is called Holy Tradition or Sacred Tradition and supposes that there are extra-Biblical beliefs that have always been accepted in the church and throughout the whole of the church.

The rejection of that man-made theory (Sacred Tradition) was asserted through use of the term Sola Scriptura.
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
10,049
1,801
60
New England
✟616,444.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Good Day, Concretecamper

I agree with all you say here... The church is the Pillar (upholder) of truth.

But what is the "truth" that they are called to uphold?

1 Tim 3:14 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that, if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth. Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

IN Him,

Bill
 
Reactions: zoidar
Upvote 0

concretecamper

I stand with Candice.
Nov 23, 2013
7,377
2,869
PA
✟335,340.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
What is the Church today? When I got born again I didn't belong to any church.
the Church today is One, Visible, and Authoritative, just as Jesus described it would be. It has these same marks today as it did on Pentecost.

What you are doing is trying to fit your question to give you the answer you want.

There is One Church Christ founded. Find that Church and follow it. It is not some amoebic unidentifiable thing. It is Visible. It is One. It is Authoritative. Jesus said these things.

Saying there is One Church makes many uncomfortable. Saying it is an unidentifiable body of believers gives people cover to do their own thing. But it is not what Jesus said about His His Church.
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

I stand with Candice.
Nov 23, 2013
7,377
2,869
PA
✟335,340.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
But what is the "truth" that they are called to uphold?
1. you dont need to answer this question before identifying the Church. Identify the One, Visible, and Authoritative Church first.
2. The Truth isnt something, it is Someone.
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

I stand with Candice.
Nov 23, 2013
7,377
2,869
PA
✟335,340.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Some said Christian people are the Church, this is my belief as well.
this belief dosnt fit with Jesus' description of the Church as being One, Visible, and Authoritative.
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
10,049
1,801
60
New England
✟616,444.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Some said Christian people are the Church, this is my belief as well.


Good Day, Peter

That would be consistent...

Augustine – The Church is the realm of Christ, His mystical body and His bride, the Mother of Christians. He also speaks of an inner and outer church, and the difficulty of telling from appearances who are members of this true church (the "enclosed garden spring shut up, fountain sealed, the paradise with the fruit of apples) who are the elect, and belong to the "invisible fellowship of love" (as opposed to the outer, historical Catholic Church).

"Moreover, that the word of God speaks to those who believe in Him as being one soul, and one synagogue, and one church, as to a daughter; that it thus addresses the church which has sprung from His name and partakes of His name (for we are all called Christians), is distinctly proclaimed in like manner in the following words, which teach us also to forget our old ancestral customs, when they speak thus: 'Hearken, O daughter, and behold, and incline thine ear; forget thy people and the house of thy father, and the King shall desire thy beauty: because He is thy Lord, and thou shalt worship Him.'" - Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho, 63)

Clement of Alexandria:

"For it is not now the place, but the assemblage of the elect, that I call the Church." (The Stromata, 7:5)
 
Reactions: zoidar
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
the Church today is One, Visible, and Authoritative, just as Jesus described it would be. It has these same marks today as it did on Pentecost.
That's not what Jesus said; it's an adaptation of his words done in order to justify the claims of one segment of his Church.

Saying there is One Church makes many uncomfortable. Saying it is an unidentifiable body of believers gives people cover to do their own thing.
Hmm. Now that's a separate point. But who is this that supposedly is saying the Church is an unidentifiable body of believers? No one posting on this thread seems to have done so.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,518
2,680
✟1,048,051.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private

You are likely referring the RCC. I don't believe there is one organisation being the true Church. I believe we followers of Christ is the Church. RCC is very different from the first Christian churches.
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
10,049
1,801
60
New England
✟616,444.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
1. you dont need to answer this question before identifying the Church. Identify the One, Visible, and Authoritative Church first.
2. The Truth isnt something, it is Someone.


Good Day, Camper

But you have not answered the question, just begging questions.
How you may define the Church is not relevant to my question.

In Him,

Bill
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.