Why an eternal hell?

[Armistead14]

Yes, sin...which ultimately translates to coveting the throne of God, going after it willfully and seeking to dethrone and destroy the creator of the universe. If the destruction of the source of all life and all things good and the replacement of Him with something which cannot even compare (a created being) is not worthy of eternal punishment, then what is? It is an eternal crime, with eternal consequences...therefore warranting an eternal sentence.

If tht is true, then the only way Christ could pay for your sins is to suffer eternal punishment, not simply death, there is no way around it.

 

[Blessedj01]

The punishment heaped on Jesus Christ was equivalent to the weight of the entire sin of mankind. Keep in mind He was also innocent. It was not "simply death."

 

[Metal Minister]

Remember that God poured out His wrath that we deserved onto Jesus, because who else but God incarnate could take that kind of punishment and remain not just holy, but faithful. Only Jesus could take that wrath and bury it in the tomb. If you reject that sacrifice, then you're rejecting the payment made on your behalf. You must then pay that price yourself. Do you think that a soul who already rejects God would suddenly find love for Him in the bowels of hell? No, they'd continue to blaspheme His name, and blame him (much like atheists do now) for putting them there. Their punishment goes on, because their hatred goes on.

May God Richly Bless you!

 

[Armistead14]

Remember that God poured out His wrath that we deserved onto Jesus, because who else but God incarnate could take that kind of punishment and remain not just holy, but faithful. Only Jesus could take that wrath and bury it in the tomb. If you reject that sacrifice, then you're rejecting the payment made on your behalf. You must then pay that price yourself. Do you think that a soul who already rejects God would suddenly find love for Him in the bowels of hell? No, they'd continue to blaspheme His name, and blame him (much like atheists do now) for putting them there. Their punishment goes on, because their hatred goes on.

May God Richly Bless you!

If God's wrath on me is eternal seperation, you state he poured that wrath on Christ, so again, for Christ to equally pay for my eternal punishment, Christ himself would have to suffer eternal punishment and seperation from God. Equal payment for equal punishment.

Most men don't reject God because they don't love him, most find God through the religion of their culture. I would think the mass of mankind that rejects God is simply because we can't prove God or people can't figure out which way gets to God. Let's face it, we have numerous religions and 100's of denominations that confuse the mass of humanity, but somehow in our failed humanity with limited time, we must figure it out or suffer unlimited punishment?

However, culture is the bigger issue, if you were born in Iran, you would follow Islam, India-Hindu, etc... If you were were born in Norway in the 10th century, you would follow Vali or Thor. Most mankind didn't reject Christ, they simply never heard about him.

After Christ is victorious and the end of the ages has come, the bible says

"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

This doesn't sound like rejection to me. Every one bows, every creature in heaven and earth profess Christ as Lord.

 

[createdtoworship]

Again, I'm not sure of your point, are you saying aion means one thing when used secularly and has another meaning when used in scripture?
That would be a gross error, so I hope not.

I do admit aion is used in the greek many to express both for an age and sometimes for everlasting, so we must understand it's use regarding subject matter to know the difference.

As I stated, lexicons evolved regarding aion.

Until we understand God is working in the ages, not two worlds, life and afterlife, we will follow improper doctrines, such as eternal torture.

In the English Bibles, aion is most often translated as "forever" or "world", resulting in doctrines that don't agree with the original intent of the word.

so we agree, aion CAN mean eternal. That was the point, and it has been used thus in secular and religious text books. But I see no evolution of the definition as it has always been thus. This is fanciful thinking to support your position. But lacks true evidence.

 

[Armistead14]

so we agree, aion CAN mean eternal. That was the point, and it has been used thus in secular and religious text books. But I see no evolution of the definition as it has always been thus. This is fanciful thinking to support your position. But lacks true evidence.

I see you didn't get involved in the thread on does eternal mean forver, where I pretty much explain my views on aion. I see no need to copy and paste what I wrote there here, so if you want, my posting there explains my opinion. Give it a read if you wish.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7679466/

Take care grady..

 

[dollarsbill]

I am just applying a literal method of interpretation as you have advocated throughout this thread.

I think it clearly points to the reason that literalism should not be our default position, but you seem more interested in denying the plain language of the text than in using it to question your chosen approach to Bible interpretation.

You are not. You are implying literal where it is not intended.

I have no idea who "they" refers to, but let me rephrase. There is absolutely nothing in the verses that you cited that even hints that we should believe out of fear of punishment. That idea is starkly rebuked by 1 John 4 (which I can't help but notice that you have been avoiding like the plague).

Then fear of what??? Was the Genesis Flood punishment? Burning Sodom alive? What else would you call it?

If you can't argue your position with logic, reason, Scripture, or exegesis, the generic "unbiblical" always works nicely.

But, hey, if you want to live your life in fear of going to Hell, by all means go for it. I am not going to join you, because I have the assurance of God's perfect love, which casts out all fear. I pray that some day you will abandon your view of a monstrous God who is looking for opportunities to torture his enemies and someday embrace the God of love who casts out all fear and desperately yearns for the salvation of humankind and whose heart breaks for every person who chooses death over life.

God's love only applies to those who please Him.

 

[Blessedj01]

Remember that God poured out His wrath that we deserved onto Jesus, because who else but God incarnate could take that kind of punishment and remain not just holy, but faithful. Only Jesus could take that wrath and bury it in the tomb. If you reject that sacrifice, then you're rejecting the payment made on your behalf. You must then pay that price yourself. Do you think that a soul who already rejects God would suddenly find love for Him in the bowels of hell? No, they'd continue to blaspheme His name, and blame him (much like atheists do now) for putting them there. Their punishment goes on, because their hatred goes on.

May God Richly Bless you!

I'll add to that...they blame themselves too. For all eternity one in hell is filled with self loathing. With too much pride to accept one's own sin but everlasting regret in rejecting salvation. There is no peace in hell.

 

[dies-l]

You are not. You are implying literal where it is not intended.

Well, I am glad we agree that the literal interpretation is not always best.

Then fear of what??? Was the Genesis Flood punishment? Burning Sodom alive? What else would you call it?

We should believe and obey out of love, not fear. As another poster pointed out, there is an element of fear that comes with love -- not fear of what the other (in this case God) will do to us if we mess up, but the very real fear of disappointing Him. But, this kind of fear, if you call it that, is a byproduct, not the cause of obedience and love.

God's love only applies to those who please Him.

I am sorry to hear that you have such a distorted view of God. I encourage you to take some time to study the writings of John in Scripture. He seems to have shared your view of God, until He was changed by three years of talking face to face with Him.

 

[dollarsbill]

Well, I am glad we agree that the literal interpretation is not always best.

But USUALLY the best.

We should believe and obey out of love, not fear. As another poster pointed out, there is an element of fear that comes with love -- not fear of what the other (in this case God) will do to us if we mess up, but the very real fear of disappointing Him. But, this kind of fear, if you call it that, is a byproduct, not the cause of obedience and love.

Guess you missed this:

Proverbs 9:10 (NASB)
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

I am sorry to hear that you have such a distorted view of God. I encourage you to take some time to study the writings of John in Scripture. He seems to have shared your view of God, until He was changed by three years of talking face to face with Him.

Sorry, I've read the Bible, including Romans.

Romans 9:14-16 (NASB)
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

 

[dies-l]

But USUALLY the best.

Guess you missed this:

Proverbs 9:10 (NASB)
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Sorry, I've read the Bible, including Romans.

Romans 9:14-16 (NASB)
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

 

[dollarsbill]

I am sorry for whatever has happened in your life that has caused you to gravitate to such a low opinion of God. Arguing with you seems rather pointless, because you seem emotionally drawn to a view of God who is quite different than the one that John the Evangelist encountered in the person of Jesus Christ. Yes, you can point to proof texts that, when removed from context, support your view of a violent and monstrous God. But, that view of God does not stand up to the NT as a whole. But, so long as you cannot conceive of God as nothing more than an omnipotent and cruel master to be feared and dreaded, you will gravitate to those prooftexts and refuse to see the God of Scripture who calls you to an intimately loving relationship with Him. I am saddened by your posts, and I will pray for you.

No Scripture, no surprise. Jesus is the God of the OT. The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom. Jesus is the God of the OT. Fear Him!

 

[dies-l]

No Scripture, no surprise. Jesus is the God of the OT. The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom.

Eph 3:18

 

[dollarsbill]

I have provided plenty of Scripture, but I have become convinced that this is so deeply emotional for you that you are not willing to have a purely intellectual debate. It would be wrong of me to try to continue down that road under the circumstances. You seem to have a hurt that is too profound for you to see the depth of God's love at this point.

Eph 3:18

You have turned to personal attack because you cannot provide Scriptural proof of YOUR belief.

You should start at the beginning:

Proverbs 9:10 (NASB)
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

 

[dies-l]

You have turned to personal attack because you cannot provide Scriptural proof of YOUR belief.

You should start at the beginning:

Proverbs 9:10 (NASB)
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Not a personal attack at all, brother. I'm sorry that you took it that way.

 

[createdtoworship]

I have provided plenty of Scripture, but I have become convinced that this is so deeply emotional for you that you are not willing to have a purely intellectual debate. It would be wrong of me to try to continue down that road under the circumstances. You seem to have a hurt that is too profound for you to see the depth of God's love at this point.

Eph 3:18

actually that is an attack, dollars bill is right. Quit with the strawmaning, and focus on the arguments at hand.

 

[createdtoworship]

I am sorry for whatever has happened in your life that has caused you to gravitate to such a low opinion of God. Arguing with you seems rather pointless, because you seem emotionally drawn to a view of God who is quite different than the one that John the Evangelist encountered in the person of Jesus Christ. Yes, you can point to proof texts that, when removed from context, support your view of a violent and monstrous God. But, that view of God does not stand up to the NT as a whole. But, so long as you cannot conceive of God as nothing more than an omnipotent and cruel master to be feared and dreaded, you will gravitate to those prooftexts and refuse to see the God of Scripture who calls you to an intimately loving relationship with Him. I am saddened by your posts, and I will pray for you.

wow, patronizing much?

 

[Armistead14]

I am sorry for whatever has happened in your life that has caused you to gravitate to such a low opinion of God. Arguing with you seems rather pointless, because you seem emotionally drawn to a view of God who is quite different than the one that John the Evangelist encountered in the person of Jesus Christ. Yes, you can point to proof texts that, when removed from context, support your view of a violent and monstrous God. But, that view of God does not stand up to the NT as a whole. But, so long as you cannot conceive of God as nothing more than an omnipotent and cruel master to be feared and dreaded, you will gravitate to those prooftexts and refuse to see the God of Scripture who calls you to an intimately loving relationship with Him. I am saddened by your posts, and I will pray for you.

We seem to live in two camps, those that for God as people would fear a Hitler or those that fear God as a son would fear a loving father. We fear a loving father, not out of him torturing us, but that he wants us to learn, a loving father corrects, so we don't make the same mistakes. This is a growth process, not legalistic.

A fear of Hitler is total and absolute. People will totally submit to total fear and control, but become miserable in their hearts.

 

[dies-l]

actually that is an attack, dollars bill is right. Quit with the pitty party and strawmaning, and focus on the arguments at hand.

My intent was compassion not patronizing or attacking. I'm sorry that you and db have seen it differently.

We have argued long enough and not gotten anywhere. But, db has expressed some feelings that I find saddening.

 

[createdtoworship]

My intent was compassion not patronizing or attacking. I'm sorry that you and db have seen it differently.

We have argued long enough and not gotten anywhere. But, db has expressed some feelings that I find saddening.

well then if you are sad, does that mean that your viewpoint is based on an emotionalistic appeal? No. It just means you are sad.