Why an eternal hell?

Metal Minister · Aug 22, 2012

holo said:
There it is again. "Eternal sin." I can't remember reading about such a concept in the bible.

"Verily I say unto you, All their sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they shall have blasphemed: but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin: because they say, 'He has an unclean spirit'" (Mark 3:28-29).

This all denotes that even after hearing the message of salvation, that they denied it, (it was directed at the Pharisees). The resolute, evil charges against the Son of God were an index to the concrete-like, malevolent quality that encrusted their hearts. These men were not simply making an ignorant mistake. They were deliberate, dug-in enemies of truth. They would hang on to their sinful disposition till the end, and that rebellion would follow them into eternity, hence, an "eternal sin."

holo said:
Neither can I remember anything from the bible that suggests God would not only grant eternal life to a sinner, but also, in effect, cause the sinner to sin infinitely and forcing Himself to punish the sinner infinitely. Speaking of which, is this eternal punishment something God WANTS to do or something He is FORCED to do?

Your question is silly. We place ourselves in hell by our actions and denial of God. (Obviously not us, but mankind as a whole). Also, hell is not eternal life, it is eternal death and suffering, apart from God.

May God Richly Bless you!

holo · Aug 22, 2012

OzSpen said:
If you are seriously interested in what the Bible says about hell and the immortality of the soul (you haven't demonstrated it this far), I have some of the biblical material online in my brief article, 'Immortality of the soul'.

I use material from both OT and NT.

Oz

Your article doesn't make a convicing case. You cite a lot of verses dealing with the dead being resurrected and judged. They don't say that the unrighteous will then be given eternal life. The bible speaks about "the second death" - everybody shall be raised from the grave, and everybody shall be judged. The righteous ones will be given eternal life, the others will be given death, which is the wages of sin.

Metal Minister · Aug 22, 2012

holo said:
I couldn't find my post in this messy thread, I figure it'll be quicker to post a new reply, and it goes a little like this:

It's an overstatement to say that the christian church has been preaching the doctrine of hell for two millennia. Paul, for one, did not preach it.

That's not fair. The fact that I reject a doctrine says nothing about why I reject it. For some people, the worse the message, the harder the salvation, the narrower the road, the fewer that find it, the more commandments one must keep, the more it scratches their itching ears. Just because the message that people will NOT be tortured forever by God is a wonderful and happy message doesn't mean it's false.

The way I see it, the problem isn't minimizing sin, but "maximizing" it, as it were. I don't know any verse in the bible that says stuff like "God is infinite, so sin against Him must have infinite punishment" or any such thing (on the contrary, God talks about one sin being more serious than another). But it does sound a lot like something you'd have to make up to justify your belief in a God who will burn you forever.

Just think about that for a moment. God - GOD - is going to TORTURE you. And never stop. After ten thousand millennia, He is still going to torture you for another million gazillion years and never ever stop. Please, just think about it for a minute.

But that's nothing compared to eternal torture. You can't say that just because it may be righteous to punish someone with a fine, it must also be righteous to punish them by hanging.

My point exactly.

Indeed, what IS the crime? What sort of "infinite" sin have I, or anybody else, committed?

I keep seeing this reference to time. After the tribulation, after Jesus's 1000 year reign, when everything is said and done there will be NO TIME! Time was a creation of God's to give us in our finite bodies a way to progress from one point to another. After the end, time will no longer exist, either in heaven or hell. We will just be.

May God Richly Bless you!

Armistead14 · Aug 22, 2012

I think many issues in the bible become difficult, because often two themes seem present. This has always been an issue with the church. From the same bible arises a belief in ET, universal salvation,
annihilationist and even others we seldom discuss. We do know the early church was mostly universalist, the 4th century church more ET and a small majority annihilationist. The same could be said with other issues like OSAS vs. NOSAS..

My life study on this issue tends to lead to universalism, although I still run into conflicting issues. In fact, I could argue fairly well for either of the three.

I do know that when the church became more political, RCC, ET became the more accepted teachings, so in fairness I have to study if their beliefs came from an understanding of scripture or were they seeking to reform scripture to control the masses. This appears to be the case for me.

Many times when we don't have answers, we will simply say somehow God will be just, even though we can't see justice or understand it. However, how can we be just if we don't know how God is just? For instance, when ET became the forced doctrine in about the 4th century, men decided if God could torture unbelievers, heretics, sinners, then they in return could torture man in God's name. This went on for several hundred years. The tortures of the church were probably the most cruel in the history of man, but God's justice was cruel, so they believed it correct. They were basically mimmicking God's justice. It was also this same belief of justice that as European nations conquered the heathen nations of the world they tortured and killed in God's name.

I know in my heart when something isn't fair or just. I knew this before I became a believer. It's is the factor that leads me. If someone says God's justice can't be explained, I say we must explain it, for if we cannot, then we can't properly render justice.

holo · Aug 22, 2012

Metal Minister said:
"Verily I say unto you, All their sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they shall have blasphemed: but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin: because they say, 'He has an unclean spirit'" (Mark 3:28-29).

This all denotes that even after hearing the message of salvation, that they denied it, (it was directed at the Pharisees). The resolute, evil charges against the Son of God were an index to the concrete-like, malevolent quality that encrusted their hearts. These men were not simply making an ignorant mistake. They were deliberate, dug-in enemies of truth. They would hang on to their sinful disposition till the end, and that rebellion would follow them into eternity, hence, an "eternal sin."

Their sin was to see something that was clearly the work of the Holy Spirit and then saying it was the devil who did it. That's quite different from any sin most of us have ever committed. Also, that "the rebellion followed them into eternity" can hardly be read from those verses. Even if they did commit some "eternal sin" that doesn't mean they'll be tortured indefinitely.

Metal Minister said:
Your question is silly. We place ourselves in hell by our actions and denial of God. (Obviously not us, but mankind as a whole). Also, hell is not eternal life, it is eternal death and suffering, apart from God.

No, we don't place ourselves in hell. God does that, because He decides what happens to us. Nobody can force His hand, so if He places someone in hell it's because He wants to.

Hell can not be eternal death AND eternal suffering. You're either alive or dead.

I edited my previous post to add a few comments I'd like you to reply to.

holo · Aug 22, 2012

Metal Minister said:
I keep seeing this reference to time. After the tribulation, after Jesus's 1000 year reign, when everything is said and done there will be NO TIME! Time was a creation of God's to give us in our finite bodies a way to progress from one point to another. After the end, time will no longer exist, either in heaven or hell. We will just be.

May God Richly Bless you!

But then "eternal life" or for that matter "eternal death" doesn't really mean anything at all. If we are ALL given eternal life from the beginning, and "death" actually means "eternal life in hell" I suspect the bible would say so pretty clearly.

Metal Minister · Aug 22, 2012

I'm sorry, please continue to believe what you like whether scriptural or not...I've really had enough of this:

View attachment 127732

Honestly, the idea that we simply no longer exist is so in line with an atheistic perception of death that its unbelievable. I do not base my thoughts on hell on how I feel God SHOULD be, but based on what He says He IS! We place ourselves in hell by our rejection of God. There are numerous places in the bible where its spelled out that God wants everyone to come to repentance.But, like so many other things on this site, no one will change their minds. I'm wasting my time and yours then. We'll simply have to agree to disagree because I honestly can't keep running in circles. We'll all find out judgement day I guess. Until then, be well.

May God Richly Bless you!

OzSpen · Aug 22, 2012

holo said:
It's an overstatement to say that the christian church has been preaching the doctrine of hell for two millennia. Paul, for one, did not preach it.

You are trying to make the Bible agree with your agenda again.

There is little need for Paul to write on hell as he has given us enough on the “wrath of God'”. The message on hell comes from others, including Jesus. However, what Paul did write on this topic agrees with the Gospels and the Book of Revelation

Pauline verses that demonstrate the wrath of God against unbelievers include:

James Rosscup wrote in ‘Paul’s Concept of Eternal Punishment’,

PAUL’S CONCEPT OF ETERNAL PUNISHMENT
James E. Rosscup
Professor of Bible Exposition

Paul did not deal in as much detail with eternal punishment as did Jesus in the gospels and John in Revelation, but what he did write matches with their fuller descriptions in many points. This is to be expected because of Paul’s strong commitment to Jesus Christ. In Rom 2:6-10 he wrote about God’s anger in punishing the lost and the anguish they will suffer as a result. In Rom 9:22-23 he spoke of “vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,” a destruction that consists of an ongoing grief brought on as a consequence of God’s wrath. Second Thess 1:8-9 is a third passage that reflects his teaching on eternal punishment. There “eternal destruction” represents a different Greek expression, one that depicts a ruin that lost people continue to suffer forever as they are denied opportunity to be with Christ. Paul’s failure to use a number of other words in expressions that could have expressed annihilation of the unsaved is further indication of his harmony with Jesus and John in teaching an unending punishment that the unsaved will consciously experience.

You have a presuppositional agenda and you don’t want the teaching on eternal punishment to be in the NT. It is there and that’s an embarrassment to you. So what do you do? You attempt to deny that Paul taught it. But you are wrong. Paul supports Jesus in the teaching on eternal punishment.

You have two major issues that come out in some of your posts, including this one:

You don't know your Bible, including the Pauline epistles;
You engage in a hermeneutic of eisegesis. You impose your will on the texts instead of letting the texts speak for themselves (exegesis).

Sincerely, Oz

Blessedj01 · Aug 22, 2012

OzSpen said:
You are trying to make the Bible agree with your agenda again.

There is little need for Paul to write on hell as he has given us enough on the wrath of God'. The message on hell comes from others, including Jesus. However, what Paul did write on this topic agrees with the Gospels and the Book of Revelation

Pauline verses that demonstrate the wrath of God against unbelievers include:

Romans 1:18;

Ephesians 5:6;

Colossians 3:6.

James Rosscup wrote in Pauls Concept of Eternal Punishment,

You have a presuppositional agenda and you dont want the teaching on eternal punishment to be in the NT. It is there and thats an embarrassment to you. So what do you do? You attempt to deny that Paul taught it. But you are wrong. Paul supports Jesus in the teaching on eternal punishment.

You have two major issues that come out in some of your posts, including this one:

You don't know your Bible, including the Pauline epistles;

You engage in a hermeneutic of eisegesis. You impose your will on the texts instead of letting the texts speak for themselves (exegesis).

Sincerely, Oz

Well said.

dies-l · Aug 22, 2012

Metal Minister said:
I'm sorry, please continue to believe what you like whether scriptural or not...I've really had enough of this:

View attachment 127732

Honestly, the idea that we simply no longer exist is so in line with an atheistic perception of death that its unbelievable. I do not base my thoughts on hell on how I feel God SHOULD be, but based on what He says He IS! We place ourselves in hell by our rejection of God. There are numerous places in the bible where its spelled out that God wants everyone to come to repentance.But, like so many other things on this site, no one will change their minds. I'm wasting my time and yours then. We'll simply have to agree to disagree because I honestly can't keep running in circles. We'll all find out judgement day I guess. Until then, be well.

May God Richly Bless you!

I will continue to look to Scripture, rather than to the opinions of others, to determine what I believe. The more I read Scripture, the more I see annihilation. Before I took the time to study Scripture, I believed in eternal torment, without even bothering to question it, because people who said that they believed only Scripture said that they believed that nonbelievers are tormented in Hell forever. But, when I couldn't find that view in Scripture, I abandoned it in favor of what I found there.

If the Biblical view happens to sound similar to the view of some atheist, pagan, or other heathen group, then I would still rather believe the biblical view than the "Christian" one.

And, I agree, there comes a point where it is best to agree to disagree, and I respect you for that, even if I can't agree with you.

dies-l · Aug 22, 2012

OzSpen said:
You are trying to make the Bible agree with your agenda again.

I can't speak for holo, but I am trying to make my agenda line up with the Bible. And, if the Bible leads me to a belief that makes me unpopular in Christian circles than so be it. When I first began to look into the issue, I was a believer in eternal torment. The more I study Scripture, the more I question that view.

dies-l · Aug 22, 2012

holo said:
But then "eternal life" or for that matter "eternal death" doesn't really mean anything at all. If we are ALL given eternal life from the beginning, and "death" actually means "eternal life in hell" I suspect the bible would say so pretty clearly.

This summarizes so much of what the eternal torment fans keep missing.

Precisely · Aug 22, 2012

dies-l said:
You are right that there is a lot of that going on from those who insist on eternal torment.

This is how the discussion has gone so far:

A: "I don't believe that nonbelievers are tormented in Hell forever".
B: "Why not?"
A: "Because the Bible teaches over and over again that the price of sin is death and destruction, not eternal torment."
B: "What about this verse that says that Hell lasts forever"?
A: "That verse says that Hell lasts forever, but says nothing about people being tormented there forever".
B: "Well what about this verse that talks about weeping and gnashing of teeth?"
A: "That verse is interesting, but once again, nothing about non-believers being tormented eternally in Hell."
B: "Well, what about this verse that says "they" will tormented forever?"
A: "The 'they' in that verse refers to the beast, the false prophet, and the devil, not to non-believers on the whole. In fact the specificity of that verse undermines the claim that eternal torment is the general fate of non-believers."
B: "Well, are you saying that the false prophet is not a non-believer?"
A: "No, I am saying that the false prophet is not all non-believers."
B: "Well, why do keep saying that Hell doesn't exist? I've shown you plenty of verses to show that it does."
A: "I have never said that Hell doesn't exist. In fact, I believe that it does exist and probably lasts forever."
B: "Then why do you keep saying that it's not eternal? If eternal life is eternal, then so is eternal hell?"
A: "I have not claimed that hell is not eternal?"
B: "Why do you keep ignoring what the Bible clearly says?"
A: "The Bible clearly says that the wages of sin is death and the fate of the wicked is their destruction; it never says anything about them be subject to eternal torment."
B: "But what about . . . [repeat the same 4 or 5 prooftexts as before]"
A: [Point out that those 4 or 5 prooftexts don't say what the ETs think they do]
B: "Hmph! Why do you keep ignoring Scripture?!?!?!?"
A:

More like...

A: "I believe you're wrong in your belief that nonbelievers are not tormented in Hell forever".
B: "Why?"
A: "Because the Bible teaches over and over again that the price of sin is the second (spiritual) death, which is eternal torment in fire that ascends forever and ever in the presence of the Lamb and the angels."
B: "No because it just says the place of hell lasts forever, not the people being tormented. I can't believe in a God that would eternally torment people. That isn't just."
A: "What is the point of hell lasting forever when its purpose does not last forever? That's like emphasizing a jail cell that is eventually empty for the rest of eternity. It doesn't make sense."
B: "No, because only three people are eternally there. Satan, the beast, and the false prophet in Revelation."
A: "So you are fine with a God that can eternally torment three people for eternity, but not any more than that? So three is the limit for you, huh?"
B: "....."
A: "........?"
B: "The Bible clearly says that the wages of sin is death and the fate of the wicked is their destruction; it never says anything about them be subject to eternal torment."
A: So you took 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 out of your Bible? A single verse has debunked two of your arguments. First, hell is the fate of ALL who "do not know God and obey the gospel" and not just three people. Second, the destruction is EVERLASTING. Not the "place."
B: "....You're just ignoring my posts. Go back and read the rest of the thread."
A:

seeingeyes · Aug 22, 2012

Precisely said:
More like...

A: "What is the point of hell lasting forever when its purpose does not last forever? That's like emphasizing a jail cell that is eventually empty for the rest of eternity. It doesn't make sense."

Wait. Who made this argument? I missed that one.

OzSpen · Aug 22, 2012

dies-l said:
I can't speak for holo, but I am trying to make my agenda line up with the Bible. And, if the Bible leads me to a belief that makes me unpopular in Christian circles than so be it. When I first began to look into the issue, I was a believer in eternal torment. The more I study Scripture, the more I question that view.

The more I take the Bible seriously and accepted it as the authoritative Scriptures, the more I understand the Bible's teaching on eternal punishment in hell. I can't be honest with the Scriptures and come to an alternate view.

Of course, it would make limited human sense to deny hell, but that's not possible when I take the Bible seriously.

Dr. Douglas Moo is an outstanding NT and Greek scholar. He has written this chapter, 'Paul on hell', in which he does not agree with your view. Why don't you take an honest read of the evidence?

Oz

OzSpen · Aug 22, 2012

Precisely said:
More like...

A: "I believe you're wrong in your belief that nonbelievers are not tormented in Hell forever".
B: "Why?"
A: "Because the Bible teaches over and over again that the price of sin is the second (spiritual) death, which is eternal torment in fire that ascends forever and ever in the presence of the Lamb and the angels."
B: "No because it just says the place of hell lasts forever, not the people being tormented. I can't believe in a God that would eternally torment people. That isn't just."
A: "What is the point of hell lasting forever when its purpose does not last forever? That's like emphasizing a jail cell that is eventually empty for the rest of eternity. It doesn't make sense."
B: "No, because only three people are eternally there. Satan, the beast, and the false prophet in Revelation."
A: "So you are fine with a God that can eternally torment three people for eternity, but not any more than that? So three is the limit for you, huh?"
B: "....."
A: "........?"
B: "The Bible clearly says that the wages of sin is death and the fate of the wicked is their destruction; it never says anything about them be subject to eternal torment."
A: So you took 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 out of your Bible? A single verse has debunked two of your arguments. First, hell is the fate of ALL who "do not know God and obey the gospel" and not just three people. Second, the destruction is EVERLASTING. Not the "place."
B: "....You're just ignoring my posts. Go back and read the rest of the thread."
A:

Oz

Precisely · Aug 22, 2012

seeingeyes said:
Wait. Who made this argument? I missed that one.

I did just now. You quoted it, so you didn't miss it.

OzSpen · Aug 22, 2012

Blessedj01 said:
Well said.

Thanks brother!

In Christ, Oz

seeingeyes · Aug 22, 2012

Precisely said:
I did just now. You quoted it, so you didn't miss it.

Oh, I thought it was a 'recap', not 'current events'.

Precisely said:
"What is the point of hell lasting forever when its purpose does not last forever? That's like emphasizing a jail cell that is eventually empty for the rest of eternity. It doesn't make sense.

Where did you get the answer you provided?:

Precisely said:
B: "No, because only three people are eternally there. Satan, the beast, and the false prophet in Revelation."

dies-l · Aug 22, 2012

OzSpen said:
The more I take the Bible seriously and accepted it as the authoritative Scriptures, the more I understand the Bible's teaching on eternal punishment in hell. I can't be honest with the Scriptures and come to an alternate view.

Of course, it would make limited human sense to deny hell, but that's not possible when I take the Bible seriously.

Dr. Douglas Moo is an outstanding NT and Greek scholar. He has written this chapter, 'Paul on hell', in which he does not agree with your view. Why don't you take an honest read of the evidence?

Oz

And, the more I take Scripture seriously and accept it as authoritative, I cannot honestly come to the conclusion that nonbelievers are tormented for eternity in Hell. So, I guess we are at an impasse.

Why an eternal hell?

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