dollarsbill
Well-Known Member
He can indeed torment sinners in fire forever. Do you know anyone who can stop Him? I don't know anyone.
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He can indeed torment sinners in fire forever. Do you know anyone who can stop Him? I don't know anyone.I can't rememberany bible verse saying God is evil off the top of my head. Yes, there are scriptures speaking of God's wrath, and there are scriptures speaking of God being righteous. God would be just in inflicting infinite torture if there was some being that deserved it. God can not torture people forever and be righteous at the same time.
Contradiction.No, I just don't think "fear of the Lord" means to be afraid of the Lord.
Then we MUST ignore the NT terms everlasting and forever. Including eternal life. That is, if we are consistent.Not punished forever in the sense of being continually and consciously punished. Just like if you say someone are eternally dead - that doesn't mean to be continually in a state of dying, it means to be dead. Or eternal life, for that matter - it's not about becoming more and more alive as time goes, it's being alive and then staying alive, kinda like the Bee Gees.
Pointless is your word, not God's.No, because that is somthing fundamentally different than eternal and pointless torture.
I remember in bible college we dealt with "Oh God" that is commonly used to express _________fill in the blank.
"Oh God, the house is on fire"
"Oh God, that car wrecked"
It's just a secular use that expresses more seriousness, we all do it.
Of course "Oh God" is commonly used in sex talk. It refers to an out of world experience, although in secular use no one is thinking about God, they're thinking about a great experience. I'm sure many believers probably use the same word, but not thinking of God, more likely expressing an out of world experince. Maybe some use it in such a way to glorify God during sex, but I doubt it, it's just not our nature to involve God in the actual sex act, although I wouldn't see it as a problem if people were serious.
I don't think because we use God often in general terms to express shock or joy, etc...makes it "in vain" , more of a cultural habit to express with more force.
I think when we willingly use his name in vain out of disrespect it becomes an issue.
Did I say it was? I would say that "buddy" really is either. But, if you are stuck on the notion that it is somehow wrong and/or degrading and/or sinful to refer to God in informal or slangy terminology, the onus is on you to explain why you think that. If that is your own personal feeling, I can respect that. If you are going to belittle other believers who don't share your conviction, I can't respect that.
God's name is Yahweh (or Jehovah; it has also been translated as "the LORD" and "I am" in English). If you use one of these names in an irreverent way, you are violating the 3rd Commandment. Fortunately, I don't often hear people using any of these words as slang (sure, you hear God, Jesus Christ, and the like in improper contexts, but rarely the actual name of God). If we are going to make this a 3rd Commandment issue, let's focus on what the 3rd Commandment actually refers to.
Personally, I would say it comes down to a matter of the heart. If you are disrespecting God in your heart, it doesn't really matter what words you use to do it. It's wrong, not because the Law says so, but because it betrays a lack of love for God. And, isn't that what the Christian life really boils down to: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself?
seeingeyes,
So is God being doing justice and what is right when he sends unrepentant people to Hades and Gehenna?
Oz
Fearing the Lord doesn't mean to go around being scared of God. God is, after all, our father, friend, saviour, the one who loves us all more than we can even imagine, the one who died for us while we were still sinners, quick to forgive, and so forth. That doesn't take anything away from his might and awesomeness, but it does mean you have no reason to be afraid of him.Contradiction.
gradyll said:Imagine standing before the throne of God and saying, hey buddy!
Thats what I am talking about if you practice the presence of God you wont' say such things. And this is what the third commandment is speaking of.
No, but we must understand what the writers meant, and that often means looking at the original language and context (Armisted is more knowledgable than me in that field and has made several interesting posts about it). We must also see how each verse (or our understanding of it) harmonizes or contradicts what the bible says otherwise. Example: when I suggested to some people it may not be a good idea to go around literally screaming in tongues in the middle of town in the middle of the night, I was met with the bible verse "touch not the Lord's anointed." And true, one shouldn't touch the Lord's anointed. But seen in relation to the rest of what the bible says, it's completely unreasonable to assume that that was a proper application of the verse. When it comes to punishing people infinitely beyond what they deserve, that's goes CLEARLY against EVERY verse that says God is a righteous judge, not to mention the ones dealing with His love and omnipotence. Those are the verses you have to ignoreThen we MUST ignore the NT terms everlasting and forever. Including eternal life. That is, if we are consistent.
Fearing the Lord doesn't mean to go around being scared of God. God is, after all, our father, friend, saviour, the one who loves us all more than we can even imagine, the one who died for us while we were still sinners, quick to forgive, and so forth. That doesn't take anything away from his might and awesomeness, but it does mean you have no reason to be afraid of him.
Agreeing with an atheist, Jehova's Witness, a Mormon, or a buddhist for that matter, on something, doesn't mean you're wrong.It's become popular today for professing evangelicals to join the ranks of Pinnock, atheists, and agnostics in protesting the doctrine of hell.
I disagree, I don't see Jesus and the apostles saying that unbelievers will be tormented for eternity. It's especially noteworthy that Paul doesn't mention anything like it, even once in his letters.But when you examine the biblical evidence, without an agenda, you'll find we sound a lot like Jesus and the apostles.
That's unfair. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm rejecting the bible or "minimizing sin."So, how could someone who claims to be faithful to Scripture ridicule the idea of eternal punishment? What is at the heart of their rejection of a never-ending hell? It's simple, really--they minimize the seriousness of human sin and guilt, and they distort the perfection of divine justice. That's the crime of Protestant Liberalism and every false religion.
So let's say you sneak ahead of me in traffic. I should then be justified in breaking your fingers, gouge your eyes out, pour gasoline on you and set you on fire - for starters. Sounds unfair, like it doesn't fit the crime? But what if I was perfect and sinless myself, then it would surely be righteous and fair to punish you like that. You see what I'm getting at.One of the most basic tenets of justice is that the punishment must fit the crime. So, if the ultimate punishment for those who die without Christ is hell, then what is the crime? What do men do to merit the eternal sentence of hell? Put plainly, they sin.
Amen.I'm about to give up on CF as the God-shrinkers are seen in too many threads here (including this thread). Those who take God at His word and want to listen to what the Scriptures say, instead of making the Scriptures mean what a human mind invents, are decreasing.
Right back at ya.Who are you to decide what eternal damnation looks like. That is the domain of the absolutely pure, holy, infinite God of love. When you begin to understand God's almighty, holy, perfect and absolutely truthful nature, you might not run off at the mouth like this.
My point exactly. Speaking for myself, I'm really glad I won't get what I deserve, but rather the grace provided by Christ. But I do know that don't deserve eternal suffering. Nobody deserves that.Not one person in this world, including you and me, will get more or less than they deserve from the absolutely pure Lord God Almighty. His justice is absolute and we ALL will get it.
holo said:God can not be righteous and infinitely evil at the same time.
We are defending the perfection of divine justice. To do something infinitely worse than satan himself has ever done, to the vast majority of people ever born, that's a perversion of any type of justice, especially a divine sort of justice. Infinite torture would require an infinite sin, and there's no such thing.
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